Winston-Salem

[jb4563]

Winston definitely has a long way to go as a city. i do admit its not a charlotte or atlanta, but its also not a joke.  I guess it depends on what u r into.  if you are into art, culture, family life and college sports then this is the place for you.  if you want a fast pace no nonsense type city with a bustlng nightlife, then charlotte  maybe good for you.  5 years ago, I would have agreed with you about it being a joke, but it has grown up in a short period of time.  All of the cities main festivals are relatively new... RiverRun, NBTF, Films on 4th and Summer on Trade.  Those activites has really added life to dowtown.  if Winston was a joke it wouldnt have been labeled as one of "America's most Livable" along with Charlotte.  This award factors in everything from quality of life to attractions to business climate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, that is why Winston-Salem/Forsyth County has one of the highest exoduses of 18-24 year olds in the state (along with some of the really rural counties).

I think it is livable for grandma and grandpa or maybe the soccer mom with 2.5 kids, but not for young, urban professionals (Raleigh, RTP is probably one of the best places in the state for that right now).

[twincity]

Talk about bitter. Where are you getting your information from? Are these facts or just opinions. Highest exodus of 18-24 year olds?...yeah right.

[capitalapts]

I think the Charlotte Observer put it right a few weeks ago....no one would go to Raleigh if it wasn't the state capital.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To suggest that Charlotte is some kind of destination for anyone outside of its metropolitan area (other than people going to Panthers games) gives me a chuckle.

Thanks, I needed that!

[AnEverydayJo]

I live in Winston and I absolutely love it...wouldn't live anywhere else. Downtown 5 years ago was "scary" in some areas, but obviously some haven't been here in a while. North Liberty does have serveral empty buildings..but all of the area is under the Goler Heights redevelopment area which shows a lot of promise and interest. The PTRP, tucked between downtown and US 52 and from Goler Heights down to the WSSU, is estimated to create 25000 jobs in 25-30 years..the vacant areas around downtown are being revitalized as street level retail, and condos above which will fuel DT growth.

The past few decades of slow growth in Winston will actually help it. City planners see where Charlotte and Raleigh made mistakes with infrastructure and planning giving them a chance to adjust/rule out plans before the same thing happens here.

Drive downtown today, you'll see the start of the PTRP expansion with a new building currently under construction, renovation of Adams Mark into Center City Marriott and a separate Embassy Suites on 5th, Neilson Building renovation into mid-rise condos, Pepper building renovation, Southwest gateway area with the state's first 2 lane round-a-bout, 2 way traffic changes with an emphasis on pedestrian use, restaurant row seems to be taking off and slowly becoming a popular destination, Piedmont Lofts from the vacant RJR warehouses, Tar/Marshall condos next to Old Salem, a thriving Arts District, and a ever growing interest in DT living.

As early as 5 years ago, DT was mainly a place to work, today its becoming more of a place to work, live, eat, and play. Yes much is still needed, but it has not seen it's best days. I'm not trying to get into a "my city is better than yours" because I think every city has something to make it what it is today...and it's hard to voice your personal opinion without being biased. Each NC Metro area has something to offer. Personally, the only thing I go to Charlotte for, besides the airport and Jock and Jills LOL, is to go to the Bass Pro Shop. Winston is getting one of those as well. Each Metro offers about the same conveniences, and as far as high end retail, I'd rather order online, then fight the traffic.

In the argument of skyscraper size determines the city and it's growth potential...size doesn't matter. Appeal, environment, safety, air quality, infrastructure/traffic, education, cost of living, and quality of life is what people and businesses look for when deciding to buy land/house or relocate. DC is a great example of the lack of towering skycrapers but yet still a thriving metro area.

The growth to PRTP, Dell, the Fedex Hub at PTIA, the 2 additional highways 74/73, will surely help Winston (and the Triad area in general) generate growth. Although it can be argued, you still can't deny that Dell added to the success of Nashville and Austin, just as it will for the Winston and surrounding area...the Dell factory in Winston will be the companies largest and most technologically advanced facility in North America. Also, with Dell comes numerous suppliers who are already looking at building in Winston, more jobs, more growth. One study already has shown a need for mass transit in the area, which will help downtown development. Also having a general aviation airport 5 miles from DT is a bonus since most Execs use private rather than commercial flights.

I disagree about the area not working together. 3 years ago, yes. But in the last year, the Triad has come together knowing that regionalism is the best way to market the area. Regional MPOs have started working together, PART (Piedmont Area Regional Transportation) is a great example. Much is still needed, but the Triad will make a name for itself. Winston with the mighty Yadkin river will come out on top. Greensboro's continued water shortage will continue to hurt growth there even after the Randalman dam is constructed. The water shortage would improve in the short-term, but future growth will need another water source.

Winston has a lot of potential for growth, and growth will happen...just not in the short-term. The fall of Tobacco, in my opinion, did hurt the city so it will take time to recreate that base, but it has already begun. Call me an environmentalist, but I'd rather live in a city with skyscrapers surrounded by trees, than a cement/asphalt haven. The city was recently given the title of Tree City USA, ranked in the Top-Ten Most digital cities and recognized as one of the most livable communities in America. The recent emphasis on bike transportation will also help as gas prices and traffic congestion continue to rise. We are only beginning to see what Winston is capable of becoming. Only time (and funding for transportation projects) will tell.

[JunktionFET]

Speaking of infrastructure, Winston needs to do more in the way of sewage treatment or something. City water in Salisbury is freakin nasty, and my grandfather in Salisbury used to always say "Salisbury drinks the water that Winston has already flushed"... haha and it's true. Has anyone ever smelled the river??

And for those who have not visited Winston in a couple years--be aware that the same style of rapid change that has affected other NC cities has also affected Winston, so chances are it has changed quite it bit from your perspective.

In all honesty I did visit Winston back in the fall/late summer and downtown was dead that evening--I mean there were like 5 people out and it actually seemed sort of dark. Elm street in Greensboro was bustling with activity--I was shocked by that alone. I'm not saying that Greensboro nightlife is better than Winston nightlife, but giving an example of how timing is everything when you're forming an impression of a place. Don't judge based on one event/visit.

And what is up with this off-topic Charlotte and Raleigh bashing?

[AnEverydayJo]

Oh I totally agree about the nightlife. I was mainly addressing potential for growth and the signs that things are changing here. There is a LOT that Winston lacks. But with the closeness of Greensboro and Winston, they both feed off each other when it comes to entertainment and jobs. Heck, a lot of us in Winston and Greensboro drive to Raleigh and Charlotte because of the lack of entertainment here.

We (winston-salem) have seem first hand what happens with out of control growth...for example Hanes Mall Blvd. Worst infrastructure in the Triad. Winston has a longggg way to go, but I didn't agree with an earlier post that it's best days were behind it.

The Triangle where the future of NC is centered....with Biotechnology being a focus of the new economy. I don't think that PTRP will ever reach the size and development of RTP, but having this flux of jobs next to DT Winston, will create more demand for housing and retail in the city's core.

What both areas have that Charlotte lacks and that nationally known universities such as Wake Forest, Duke, NC State, & UNC-Chapel Hill.

You live in Cary...very nice. I have relatives there and they love it as well. I started to move there a few years back.

[capitalapts]

To clarify, I do apologize if the tone of my post questioning Charlotte's merits relative to Atlanta's was overly critical. I just don't see Charlotte as being very similar to Atlanta, population-wise and socially/nightlife-wise. They're just different cities altogether, like comparing apples to oranges. Just one guy's opinion. No bashing intended, Charlotte-ites.

[yadkinv]

Thanks TwinCity and AnEverydayJo for providing some rebuttal for what are a combination of a lack of facts and opinion based upon bias perception. Just a couple of comments more.

The apparent success of PTRP is what has prompted the proposal (from a Greensboro contingency originally) for the Triad Research Park, and which I think is a good idea. Also, it has accelerated UNCG's race for developing some sort of research park as well (more evidence of competition).

Now, for the cooperation vs competition part. I agree that things have become more agreeable in the past three years, but it ain't gone by a long shot. Just look at the Dell competition. Everyone new that Winston-Salem had been wooing Dell for two years, and Greensboro, as well as High Point, lept in last minute to attempt an end run. That's not cooperation, but it is business.

Furthermore, and I'll be briefer than comments on threads at other sites, the airport situation has always fueled the competition part, and until it's solved will continue to hurt Winston-Salem. In fact, in light of the airport debacle, which is entirely Winston-Salem's fault, I'm surprised Winston-Salem is holding its own and even exceeding Greensboro in some respects. Also, I'll say only a few words, but have said more in the past at other sites regarding the lack of interstate highway designation in Winston-Salem as opposed to the glut of such activity in Greensboro. This is more of a problem than anyone realizes.

Sorry to be so negative, but these are underlying issues, but I do believe they will become minimized with the sucess of ligt rail, and if Winston-Salem is succesful in landing the wetsern high speed rail route to Asheville.

By the way, recall the professional baseball miserable display of competition, and lack of cooperation. It would have been phenomenal for the area, and even though it was defeated in Winston-Salem and Forsyth County barely, it was trounced in Greensboro and Guilford County, which is unusual for them to do; why, because it was required to be 50/50 in Forsyth and Guilford Counties; ha! It was also an original Winston-Salem proposal anyway.

[JunktionFET]

Sorry to be so negative, but these are underlying issues, but I do believe they will become minimized with the sucess of ligt rail, and if Winston-Salem is succesful in landing the wetsern high speed rail route to Asheville.

NCDOT never considered high speed rail for their proposed restoration of passenger service to western NC (or southeastern NC for that matter)--it has always been a conventional passenger rail deal. Additionally their lengthy study a few years ago concluded that due to a number of reasons, western NC service would use an Asheville to Salisbury route using a new trainset--this would connect with the Carolinian or Piedmont at the NCRR in Salisbury.

Also at this point in the game, the SEHSR route will more than likely be along the present NCRR corridor--using the more direct and modernized High Point route instead of the much more expensive Winston detour. There was talk of adding a loop to Winston that would break off of the mainline in Greensboro and rejoin in Lexington, but after the studies the projected cost of such a project is extremely high. It could be constructed someday, but don't expect it to be an option on SEHSR's opening day.

Not trying to get more into semantics, but "light rail" has never been a consideration for the Triad, for good reason. PART has been studying BRT and Commuter Rail as transit options. Based on the most recent data, PART looks to have the best ideas for returning passenger rail to Winston for sure, in the form of commuter rail.

I suppose someday in the future, someone in Winston would be able to get on the PART train to Greensboro, then pick up the SEHSR and ride it to Boston if they wanted... Or they could take the Piedmont to Charlotte or Raleigh for the day.

Personally I hope that PART eventually builds a Commuter Rail system for the Triad--one of their options served the airport rather nicely as well using existing rails, and it only added a few miles to the Greensboro-Winston route. In order to fully connect the Triad, a Winston-High Point line will need to be constructed from scratch. In the end we may just see that corridor developed as BRT along 311. It may be some time before PART actually proposes anything based on these studies, but I am glad they are at least interested.

[twincity]

Also, I'll say only a few words, but have said more in the past at other sites regarding the lack of interstate highway designation in Winston-Salem as opposed to the glut of such activity in Greensboro.  This is more of a problem than anyone realizes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No Airport representation

No amtrak

Worst bridges in the state

and now a delayed ...again urban loop.

I say this Winston's greatest problem. The transportaion infrastructure needs a big update. The Northern beltway would have corrected a lot of traffic issues on the western side of the city, but now it is delayed once again for another 3 years. This time, blame it on lack of funds. NCDOT is so backwards in there thinking. and almost blind to certain facts. Greensboro just widened I-40 to 10 lanes, the urban loop is being constructed, Jamestown is getting a by-pass? and now High Point is finishing up its bypass. What road construction is going on in forsyth county?...2 bridge replacements on Bus. 40. What does it take for NCDOT to see that Forsyth County, maybe in a short period of time, will need much wider highways and twice as many thouroughfares.

[JunktionFET]

What does it take for NCDOT to see that Forsyth County, maybe in a short period of time, will need much wider highways and twice as many thouroughfares.

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Perhaps Winston and Charlotte have more in common than most people are aware

[yadkinv]

This isn't light rail?

Triad Rail

[yadkinv]

Thanks TwinCity for relating succinctly what I've been indicating all along.

[JunktionFET]

This isn't light rail?

Triad Rail

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No. That is a heavy rail system. If they opt for an all-day type of schedule (trains every 30 mins, and 15 mins during peak hours), then the design depicted would be more like a Regional Rail system--much like the proposed TTA system.

Regional Rail is like a modified form of Commuter Rail, designed to link multiple big cities together in a metro or region, usually with a more aggressive schedule (i.e., not just rush hour).

Classic Commuter Rail is like Charlotte's North Line or Raleigh's Eastrans--linking small suburbs with a big city, and usually only running a couple hours in the morning and evenings at rush hour, and of course during special events.

[AnEverydayJo]

According to the Triad Bus Journal, the rail system from Clemmons to Burlington will be light-rail.

Here's a link...

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/stories/2...14/daily33.html

[JunktionFET]

According to the Triad Bus Journal, the rail system from Clemmons to Burlington will be light-rail.

Here's a link...

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/stories/2...14/daily33.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jeez, people get the terms confused all the time, just look at this thread, look at articles on TTA, etc. The media relies on useless buzz words all the time, they are not an authority on terminology.

This is not light rail--it is sharing active freight ROW, it travels almost 60 miles from end to end, stops are relatively few (compared to a typical LRT line), and it goes well beyond the boundary of one city. This is a regional or commuter rail system using HEAVY rails.

Heh, in fact PART often refers to the rail option as "Regional Rail" or "Commuter Rail" in their studies (which they have done a superb job with I might add).

Light Rail would be stupid for the Triad (just as it would be for the Triangle)--it would be painfully slow, low capacity, and so expensive that it would never get past the proposal stage.

[yadkinv]

I think I"ve got it now. So, Winston-Salem's proposed (actually scheduled) restoration of the trolley line in addition to the PART stuff is light rail then, right?

[JunktionFET]

Yes, the trolley circuit would be along light rail tracks and would use actual LRVs powered by overhead wires. It would be separate from the Triad regional/commuter rail system. I believe the proposal calls for using street ROW for the PTRP/WFU line, much like Charlotte CATS Uptown streetcar and Central Ave streetcar lines

BTW, unless you have heard something I have not, this is still a proposal and nothing has been agreed or purchased. The design is undergoing further feasibility studies to nail down specifics of the system, and all the funding sources have yet to be obtained. Even when the feasibility studies are all complete, there is a string of environmental studies, bidding, etc, etc. However there is a pretty decent level of support behind it and I believe it will materialize.

I can't decide whether I want to call the 60 mile PART Triad line a Regional or Commuter system. It depends on what the final design/proposal looks like, and what the schedule will be. I believe they should just go all out and make it a full fledged Regional Rail system, like TTA is doing for the Triangle. Do it now while costs would be lower. It would also ensure maximum ridership as the trains would run at all times, with more aggressive scheduling during peak travel times.

[Noneck_08]

Sorry to interuot your PART discussion but I just got home from Winston. Went over to Sams Club and Lowes and over near the colosium to eat. Traffic was good mostly. There's always a slow down on Hanes. Downtown is very impressive looking from US 52

[monsoon]

According to the Triad Bus Journal, the rail system from Clemmons to Burlington will be light-rail.

Here's a link...

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/stories/2...14/daily33.html

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They have it wrong. The partnc system is commuter rail, possibly by using DMUs. Don't expect it to happen unless the local voters approve a significant tax to pay for it. The TTA's similar system in the Triangle is not funded because they don't have sufficient local funding to pay for it.

[sean]

One feather in Winston's cap is how Business 40 and Hwy 52 intersect immediately adjacent to the CBD. Try telling a visitor how to get to downtown Raleigh or Greensboro from I40. Just about anybody can quickly find downtown Winston (drive towards the big buildings, then get off an exit ramp).

I love Winston's quick access to the mountains and I get frustrated when visiting similar sized cities that have horrible traffic and congestion.

[orulz]

Also at this point in the game, the SEHSR route will more than likely be along the present NCRR corridor--using the more direct and modernized High Point route instead of the much more expensive Winston detour. There was talk of adding a loop to Winston that would break off of the mainline in Greensboro and rejoin in Lexington, but after the studies the projected cost of such a project is extremely high. It could be constructed someday, but don't expect it to be an option on SEHSR's opening day.

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There are hundreds and hundreds of pages of PDFs of proposals and studies about various forms of passenger rail in NC, including a lot about SEHSR. I've read everything I can get my hands on, and here are my thoughs on the subject: I do not expect the Winston-Salem route to be built off-the-bat. The main reason is that the route through High Point is state-owned. Rather than just providing track upgrades as a "gift" to the freight railroads, 100% of the money spent on the rails stays with the state. The contract between the NCRR and Norfolk Southern is unusually friendly towards passenger trains: it includes a specific provision allowing at least 3 Raleigh-Charlotte round trips each day on the line, with the option to negotiate more with capacity improvements.

When (if?) SEHSR is built, the Carolinian will probably be retained, at least between Rocky Mount and Charlotte, since it's the only link between Eastern NC and the major population centers of NC. While it makes sense for the SEHSR to go through High Point because the route is shorter and less expensive, exactly how many people from Rocky Mount will need to go to High Point? NCDOT should consider rerouting the Carolinian between Greensboro and Lexington (there are plans for a station there) so it will stop in Winston Salem. It would only be one trip in each direction per day, but it would ensure that WS is not left out in the cold for intercity rail. Bringing the Carolinian to WS would require restoration of the WS Union Station, and would certainly need track, signal, and crossing upgrades on the K line (Greensboro-WS) and the WSSB (WS to Lexington). But if those railroads can be brought up to Class 3 standards (59mph) the trains could cover the stretch in an hour and people in Winston Salem would be very happy. It would also lay the groundwork for future high speed service.

However, it's important to note that the route through Winston Salem is still formally in the running for the SEHSR - no decision has been made as to the preferred route.

On a side note, this is a map I drew up of possible passenger rail routes in NC by the year 2050. Many of the routes are taken from some sort of study or report I found online, but there are also some extensions, and some that I just completely made up because I thought that they'd make sense. Keep in mind that the orange routes could be run with trains (the tracks exist) but they also might make more sense as bus routes with timed connections to intercity trains. At any rate, 45 years is a long time so who knows what might happen between now and then

[JunktionFET]

I love talking about rail possibilities for the future because there are so many different ways to do it. Just look at PART's Triad Transit study and the fifty-eleven different routing options they list Your map is very fascinating and has several good points of discussion.

Winston-Salem poses quite a challenge because of it's position relative to the other cities. Any kind of bypass better bring on some serious riders otherwise it is a waste. I wonder how active the Winston-Salem Connector (van service to Greensboro) is? That van is a joint venture between PART and NCDOT.

Additionally the location of Union Station isn't exactly ideal. In fact, PART proposed building a separate facility and platform for its rail transit option. This would make any huge investment in Union Station a bit of a waste because there just wouldn't be constant activity going on there all day. See this map:

More "ifs"... If Winston-Salem successfully builds its streetcar line from PTRP to WFU, and PART builds its rail option, then Union Station could indeed be restored into a multi-modal center, and the street car could be used to connect it to everything else.

Now for Rocky Mount, Wilson, and Selma... Let's assume that SEHSR is successfully implemented and it is decided to drop The Carolinian. Those three towns would receive a connection to Raleigh via the Silver Star.

There's also Eastrans--while we're brainstorming with proposals and such, we could say that Eastrans would provide a couple peak-hour trips a day for Selma/Goldsboro and Wilson to Raleigh, as originally planned.

Perhaps a Rocky Mount connection could be made with one of the three Amtrak trains that zooms from Rocky Mount to Wilson, then allowing a passenger to transfer over to an Eastrans train thus reaching Raleigh (and the rest of the state). Also there could be an additional "out of your way" connection with the proposed Wilmington passenger route in Selma (courtesy Amtrak from Rocky Mount) if an Eastrans train was not available.

Combining resources like this would give Rocky Mount passengers several options each day to reach Raleigh, even if it requires a few transfers. But as you say--how many riders could it be?

Ah, there's lots of possibilities, but I must rest now. I'll catch up with everyone tomorrow. Until then, here is a map that was published in 1999 showing all the existing as well as the proposed/studied rail options within the state during that time:

Obviously much of this will be different from our perspective today, six years later, but it is still cool to look at.

[ezcheese]

Interestingly, My part time job is to manage a small group of janitors and to clean the concord building near PTI which houses 2 PART offices. As I was doing my rounds and making sure that everything had been cleaned in the PART offices, I stoped and noticed a huge map of potential future piedmont transit. It showed the loop around Greensboro, a loop around Winston-Salem and then several possible BRT rail lines and bus routes. It looked like there were 2 different rail lines running through Winston. One running west to east connecting Greensboro, and the other was running north to south through the middle of Winston.

[orulz]

Now for Rocky Mount, Wilson, and Selma... Let's assume that SEHSR is successfully implemented and it is decided to drop The Carolinian. Those three towns would receive a connection to Raleigh via the Silver Star.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's one thing that isn't going to happen. The Silver Star was historically run by the Seaboard Air Line. The Silver Star originally ran on the Seaboard Air Line Railroad (CSX S-Line) north of Raleigh, which goes through Henderson and Norlina on its way to Petersburg. It kept using this route even after the route was taken over by Amtrak, until CSX finally decomissioned the route in 1985. The S-line is the proposed route for the SEHSR, and as soon as it's restored (and it may be even if the SEHSR isn't built) you can bet that Amtrak will put the Star back on its original route since the detour through Selma adds several hours onto the schedule

...

Combining resources like this would give Rocky Mount passengers several options each day to reach Raleigh, even if it requires a few transfers. But as you say--how many riders could it be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The number of people traveling by train from Rocky Mount to Raleigh is undoubtedly very few. However, the number of trips from Rocky Mount, Wilson, AND Selma to all other destinations in North Carolina between Raleigh and Charlotte would be a much more significant market. That is why the Carolinian may in fact be retained, and since the Carolinian doesn't carry the moniker of "high speed rail," a 30-45 minute detour through Winston-Salem should be acceptable.