Meet Little Rock, Arkansas

[Aporkalypse]

Your information is inaccurate. I believe your assumption is based on your experience 20 plus years ago. I am only a few years older than you. When I was at Pulaski Heights Junior High, parents of some of my friends sent them to Catholic because of Father Tribou's reputation as a disciplinarian. I don't recall anyone claim to go to Catholic because it was a better school academically.

Today Little Rock has middle schools, grades 6-8. Dunbar is a very strong middle school and Mann has developed a good reputation too.

From LRSD website....

Dunbar's Gifted and Talented International Studies programs enhance the standard middle school curriculum. All students participate in the International Studies program by taking at least one of the foreign language interdisciplinary electives each year.

Gifted and Talented students take an accelerated curriculum in math, science, social studies and English. More than 25 electives and over 30 activity clubs add to Dunbar's outstanding program.

Dunbar PTSA was honored with the Phoebe Apperson Hearst National PTA Excellence in Education Partnership Award in both 2003 (Mentoring) and 2005 (Dunbar Garden).

Math Counts Team: 2002 - 3rd in Region and one student was 3rd in state and competed in national competition; 2003 - We had second team in the region and 3rd in state; 2004 - We had second in region, second in state and had two students compete in national's; 2005 - We were the 3rd team in region.

Dunbar was the first school in Little Rock to receive the National PTA School of Excellence Award

Dunbar's staff have received numerous staff awards including the prestigious Milken Educator Award received by Kristy Kidd in 2003.

Dunbar continues to win numerous awards at Worldfest taking 3rd place in 2003, winning best overall in 2004 and first place in 2005.

Our Quiz Bowl won the district competition in 2004.

I forgot about Dunbar, that's a decent middle school. It's a magnet, though, isn't it?

Still, Jr Highs are repeatedly cited as the reason many parents put their kids in private schools. I've heard the same theme repeated over and over.

[johnnydr87]

johnnydr87-

I am a Central grad and have a lot of respect for ASMSA. I was glad to hear that Anice Stedman returned to Central after her time at ASMSA.

Do you keep up with your ASMSA alum? I am sure most of them go to out of state colleges and universities. Do many return to Central Arkansas? How are they contributing to the community?

Also, any thoughts on The Oaklawn Foundation? There is an article in Arkansas Business about the largest single gift to a Hot Springs Charity.

"The Oaklawn Foundation will receive continuing funding of $250,000 to $500,000 per year from gaming income as a result of an agreement Oaklawn made with the city. "

"The Foundation will be administered by an independent board of trustees that Oaklawn said will use the money to fund programs and scholarships to benefit Garland County students and senior citizens, including the construction of a new Center on Aging in association with the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences and the Donald W. Reynolds Foundation. "

This all seems very positive to me.

I'd say the majority go in-state. Over 60% of ASMSA students were on free and reduced lunch upon entering ASMSA (where food is completely free). Thus, most take the cheapest route: scholarships in state.

Obviously, going in-state is the last option for a lot of them...so some are still itching to get out right after college.

The best, or those who can afford it, or those who are not picky when it comes to out of state schools....generally go out of state.

That said....I feel like the people I hung out with at ASMSA were smarter than the ones at Wash U. I feel like a lot of kids are here because they could afford the prep for the ACT/SAT or because they could afford the school.

Admittedly, I lived on an unusually smart floor in ASMSA. You could sense the innate intelligence when doing multivariable calculus, chemistry, or physics. I considered myself good at math at lakeside; at asmsa, i felt like i lacked that natural ability to understand concepts as easily as some could.

The ACT range on my ASMSA floor was probably 29-35 (I'm at 34). Most have in the 31 area, but could easily have higher scores if they studied. Because of their lowish scores (for receiving enough aid out of state), and because they're generally lower-middle class.....and their only options are state school for financial aid.

Thus, Arkansas is keeping a lot of its brightest minds. I'm not sure if it will stay that way once they get their free college education out of the way.

Still, those who go out of state generally stay out. Where can you get opportunities if you're an aeronautical engineer, computer scientist, or chemical engineer in this state?

Sorry for the clunkiness of the post. I have the flu...so I'm only semi-aware of what i'm doing.

[LRU1967]

My child attended Baptist School in LR for six years, spent one year at Mann Magnet in LR, then three years in the NLR school district before her final two years at ASMS. Her experience at ASMS was entirely positive. She felt very comfortable in a student body composed of extremely bright young people. My impression was that most of the students were not the cheerleading, club joining, social climber types but were a bunch of well-rounded geeks. I felt at the time that ASMS was the most rigorous high school in the state and from what I know it still is. It's true that LRCHS has sent many grads to Ivy League colleges. Central has a long history of top-notch students which influence college admission officials. ASMS did not have this history, its first Ivy admission was from the third class, a young man who went to Yale. I don't know what the experience has been since.

Yes ASMS is a public school. It is part of the UofA system. It is competitive and as a residential school it is different and not for every student. It was originally conceived as a place for smart kids, from small towns to go and be given an education not available in their home towns.

As for diversity, I observed that the student body in 95-97 included blacks, whites, East Indians, Asians, small town kids and those few from larger cities, doctor's kids and those from poor families. I thought at the time that it was truly a melting pot for our state.

Like johnnydr87 I think a majority of ASMS grads attend college in state mainly at UAF although this year UALR has attracted a number to its Cyber College. I also agree that whether a grad stays in Arkansas after college depends on their major.

[johnnydr87]

ASMS did not have this history, its first Ivy admission was from the third class, a young man who went to Yale. I don't know what the experience has been since.

That's interesting. Supposedly the first two classes were the best (highest ACT average). Are you sure about that?

At the very least, I know there were some MIT/CIT admits. My brother was class of 96 (second class)...

[LRU1967]

That's interesting. Supposedly the first two classes were the best (highest ACT average). Are you sure about that?

At the very least, I know there were some MIT/CIT admits. My brother was class of 96 (second class)...

That's my recollection but I'll ask my daughter. I'd like to see data on the college attended by each graduate.

[LRU1967]

That's interesting. Supposedly the first two classes were the best (highest ACT average). Are you sure about that?

At the very least, I know there were some MIT/CIT admits. My brother was class of 96 (second class)...

My daughter confirmed what you thought that ASMS had graduates admitted to MIT/CalTech from the 95 and 96 classes. The 97 student was the first one attend one of the traditional Ivys, Harvard,Yale etc . Her 97 class also had an MIT admission.

[Aporkalypse]

Does anyone know what happened to the Central Grad that was student body president at Harvard a few years ago? I read something about him once and he seemed like a natural politicians.

I remember a couple of years ago there were 2 girls in consecutive years that scored perfectly on the SAT, a real rarity in Arkansas. The first was an Asian from Central and she ended up at Yale and the other, shockingly, was home schooled in Vilonia. I wonder what happened to that girl. There was also a girl at PA that made a 1580 around that time.

[johnnydr87]

Does anyone know what happened to the Central Grad that was student body president at Harvard a few years ago? I read something about him once and he seemed like a natural politicians.

I remember a couple of years ago there were 2 girls in consecutive years that scored perfectly on the SAT, a real rarity in Arkansas. The first was an Asian from Central and she ended up at Yale and the other, shockingly, was home schooled in Vilonia. I wonder what happened to that girl. There was also a girl at PA that made a 1580 around that time.

I have a friend that made a 1590. There were a couple 35's (ACT) in my class.

Getting a 35 on the ACT or the 1550-1590 range on the SAT isn't really all that uncommon relative to those who get perfects. But you won't get your name in the newspaper for an "almost."

Besides, standardized scores are important, but ECs are too. There is a girl going to Harvard from ASMSA '06 who was Jeopardy! teen champion (she was on Jeopardy! twice). She also won first place in the international science fair (that's REALLY incredible).

[LRU1967]

Does anyone know what happened to the Central Grad that was student body president at Harvard a few years ago? I read something about him once and he seemed like a natural politicians.

I remember a couple of years ago there were 2 girls in consecutive years that scored perfectly on the SAT, a real rarity in Arkansas. The first was an Asian from Central and she ended up at Yale and the other, shockingly, was home schooled in Vilonia. I wonder what happened to that girl. There was also a girl at PA that made a 1580 around that time.

I don't recall any LRCHS grad being student body president at Harvard. I'm active in the new LRCHS Alumni Association and I'll ask the principal about this at our next meeting. You might be thinking about Roosevelt Thompson, a Central grad who was killed in an automobile accident in his final year at Yale.

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclop...px?entryID=2632

[Aporkalypse]

I have a friend that made a 1590. There were a couple 35's (ACT) in my class.

Getting a 35 on the ACT or the 1550-1590 range on the SAT isn't really all that uncommon relative to those who get perfects. But you won't get your name in the newspaper for an "almost."

Besides, standardized scores are important, but ECs are too. There is a girl going to Harvard from ASMSA '06 who was Jeopardy! teen champion (she was on Jeopardy! twice). She also won first place in the international science fair (that's REALLY incredible).

A guy I knew in med school was at the UA and won College Jeopardy. He went to Benton High School. He did pretty well in the recent Tourney of Champions as well. 34-35s on the ACT are much easier to pull off than 1550+ scores on the SAT. Extracurriculars are all BS, anyway. Just a bunch of fluff. It's all kind of funny looking back on it. Especially the stuff you would do to pad your med school application.

[Aporkalypse]

I don't recall any LRCHS grad being student body president at Harvard. I'm active in the new LRCHS Alumni Association and I'll ask the principal about this at our next meeting. You might be thinking about Roosevelt Thompson, a Central grad who was killed in an automobile accident in his final year at Yale.

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclop...px?entryID=2632

Nope, I know this guy was president of the Harvard student body. He wrote a letter to the editor to the Demozette and I was very impressed. There have been plenty of Central kids go Ivy League. A couple of them are friends of mine.

[johnnydr87]

34-35s on the ACT are much easier to pull off than 1550+ scores on the SAT.

Haha speaking from experience or something? Actually, the students who had 1550+ on SAT also had 35's on their ACTs. The girl I mentioned had a 2360 (out of 2400). It's also important to mention that SATs are harder for the class of 2006 and beyond than they were for those before.

That's not true about EC's at all. Maybe for most high school students. But those who actually did something with their clubs make sure that their applicant reviewers know it.

Thousands upon thousands of people have 34+ ACt. But it doesn't mean squat if you were just a book worm. That is, if you're applying to a top 25 institution. (The lower in rank the school is....the more likely they are to focus solely on standardized scores.) Music competitions, presidents of clubs where you host notable events, self-run businesses, club/science fair/academic competition awards let adcoms know you're not all talk. They can pick out the liars/fluffers fairly easily. It's their job. And usually, those students who actually have done something amazing go out of their way to prove it's all legit: website links, testimony--whatever it takes.

If you're rich, getting in a school like Wash U probably isn't too hard (assuming you have an SAT in the middle 50% of 1360-1520). But if you need a scholarship, it's a different story.

That's cool about the Jeopardy thing. Yeah, I don't view her Jeopardy accomplishment as as amazing as her international science fair award. I( feel some really good quiz bowl players could do the same.) If you just look at state winners for science fair, you can see how incredibly complex the projects are just on the Arkansas level. On the international level, it's a whole different game.

[Aporkalypse]

Haha speaking from experience or something? Actually, the students who had 1550+ on SAT also had 35's on their ACTs. The girl I mentioned had a 2360 (out of 2400). It's also important to mention that SATs are harder for the class of 2006 and beyond than they were for those before.

That's not true about EC's at all. Maybe for most high school students. But those who actually did something with their clubs make sure that their applicant reviewers know it.

Thousands upon thousands of people have 34+ ACt. But it doesn't mean squat if you were just a book worm. That is, if you're applying to a top 25 institution. (The lower in rank the school is....the more likely they are to focus solely on standardized scores.) Music competitions, presidents of clubs where you host notable events, self-run businesses, club/science fair/academic competition awards let adcoms know you're not all talk. They can pick out the liars/fluffers fairly easily. It's their job. And usually, those students who actually have done something amazing go out of their way to prove it's all legit: website links, testimony--whatever it takes.

If you're rich, getting in a school like Wash U probably isn't too hard (assuming you have an SAT in the middle 50% of 1360-1520). But if you need a scholarship, it's a different story.

That's cool about the Jeopardy thing. Yeah, I don't view her Jeopardy accomplishment as as amazing as her international science fair award. I( feel some really good quiz bowl players could do the same.) If you just look at state winners for science fair, you can see how incredibly complex the projects are just on the Arkansas level. On the international level, it's a whole different game.

Yes, I am speaking from experience but anyone can figure it out. The SAT's total scoring is cumulative. The ACT's total scoring is somewhat of a weighted average. You can make a 34 and still make a 32 on one section, maybe even a 31. On the SAT it's the addition of the scores. To make a 1560 you have to make an 800 on one and 760 on the other or two 780s. That's much tougher. This is beside the fact that I actually feel the test is much tougher for other reasons. I'm sure you're well aware I'm not the only one that thinks this. I used to teach Kaplan's ACT and SAT courses as well as MCAT courses in my later years.

It is true about ECs for most applicants. Joining clubs, playing sports even if you're no good, doing a variety of volunteerwork, etc can pad your CV and make it impressive even if you're not talented and have no interest in these things. Especially the volunteerwork, you can take something you've done once or twice on a weekend and make it sound grandiose. I'm not saying it's what I did but lots of people have. Still, there are only a handful of schools that are that hard to get into with high SAT/ACT scores and a 3.9 or better.

I like Wash U and if I'd have a lot of financial help I might've gone there. I looked at it as well, I wanted to play DIII football somewhere and it's the closest good school where I could've played besides Rhodes, which I also considered. When I applied they required the SAT and that's the only reason I bothered taking it. I had to weigh a free ride at Hendrix versus finishing with $80k of debt at Wash U or somwhere else. That was the best decision I ever made. The same thing came up in med school and by choosing UAMS over a handful of others it probably saved me another $100,000 or more. I finished with $60k in debt when it could've easily been $250,000 or more. I'm glad I don't have that monkey on my back.

Truth be told, there are times when I wish I went to UA. It probably wouldn't have made an iota of difference in where I am today whether I'd gone to Duke or UCA. Looking back on things, I might've had more fun at UA though I did have a good time at Hendrix. After you finish college and you're tied down to a job you realize that was far and away the most enjoyable period of your life.

[johnnydr87]

Yes, I am speaking from experience but anyone can figure it out. The SAT's total scoring is cumulative. The ACT's total scoring is somewhat of a weighted average. You can make a 34 and still make a 32 on one section, maybe even a 31. On the SAT it's the addition of the scores. To make a 1560 you have to make an 800 on one and 760 on the other or two 780s. That's much tougher. This is beside the fact that I actually feel the test is much tougher for other reasons. I'm sure you're well aware I'm not the only one that thinks this. I used to teach Kaplan's ACT and SAT courses as well as MCAT courses in my later years.

It is true about ECs for most applicants. Joining clubs, playing sports even if you're no good, doing a variety of volunteerwork, etc can pad your CV and make it impressive even if you're not talented and have no interest in these things. Especially the volunteerwork, you can take something you've done once or twice on a weekend and make it sound grandiose. I'm not saying it's what I did but lots of people have. Still, there are only a handful of schools that are that hard to get into with high SAT/ACT scores and a 3.9 or better.

I like Wash U and if I'd have a lot of financial help I might've gone there. I looked at it as well, I wanted to play DIII football somewhere and it's the closest good school where I could've played besides Rhodes, which I also considered. When I applied they required the SAT and that's the only reason I bothered taking it. I had to weigh a free ride at Hendrix versus finishing with $80k of debt at Wash U or somwhere else. That was the best decision I ever made. The same thing came up in med school and by choosing UAMS over a handful of others it probably saved me another $100,000 or more. I finished with $60k in debt when it could've easily been $250,000 or more. I'm glad I don't have that monkey on my back.

Truth be told, there are times when I wish I went to UA. It probably wouldn't have made an iota of difference in where I am today whether I'd gone to Duke or UCA. Looking back on things, I might've had more fun at UA though I did have a good time at Hendrix. After you finish college and you're tied down to a job you realize that was far and away the most enjoyable period of your life.

I think it all depends on who you ask. Some think the SAT is harder. Some think the ACT is harder. I actually thought the SAT was harder, but my counterpart SAT is higher than my ACT (percentage-wise). But I studied for it.

I know some who have much higher SATs than ACTs (I'm still using the 1600 point scale). In fact, I read an article somewhere (during my college search) that about 1/3 of students score higher on ACT than SAT, 1/3 on SAT than ACT, and 1/3 about the same. I have a friend at IMSA (Illinois version of ASMS) and she said that she found it weird that people scored higher on the ACT at ASMSA when it was the other way around at her school.

I'm not looking forward to post-undergrad reality.

[skirby]

I think it all depends on who you ask. Some think the SAT is harder. Some think the ACT is harder. I actually thought the SAT was harder, but my counterpart SAT is higher than my ACT (percentage-wise). But I studied for it.

I know some who have much higher SATs than ACTs (I'm still using the 1600 point scale). In fact, I read an article somewhere (during my college search) that about 1/3 of students score higher on ACT than SAT, 1/3 on SAT than ACT, and 1/3 about the same. I have a friend at IMSA (Illinois version of ASMS) and she said that she found it weird that people scored higher on the ACT at ASMSA when it was the other way around at her school.

I'm not looking forward to post-undergrad reality.

How about those who say the SAT and ACT are BS. An increasing number of universities no longer require them. The top 10% of students in Texas can enter UT or TA&M without them.

[johnnydr87]

How about those who say the SAT and ACT are BS. An increasing number of universities no longer require them. The top 10% of students in Texas can enter UT or TA&M without them.

I personally don't like them much either. I think too much emphasis is put on them.

So much of it depends on economic background, upbringing, etc. If a student who has a intuitive understanding of academics throughout his grade school life scores poorly, he or she may start to discount his or her abilities.

That said, I still think the standardized scores can give a general range intelligence. It's pretty much safe to say that a person who scores in the 28 ACT range is not as intelligent as one in the 36 range. The difference between a 32 and 34 is not really significant enough to determine who's more intelligent. Studying can give you those two extra points.

Just the fact that I was raised in the area I was raised and that I was raised in my particular family made me aware of the ACT/SAT. I honestly didn't really care that much until my older sister basically scolded me over the summer for not studying and retaking.

Also, I'm sure most adcoms know that ACT/SAT measures a narrow range of intelligence. That's why people with lower SAT/ACTs can get into schools like Harvard--they demonstrate intelligence in different areas: social, art, musical, etc.

I don't think there is any final solution. Standardized scores are not the ultimate solution to determining potential--nor is abolishing them outrightly. It's partly a crap shoot.

If a black student from an inner city school, growing up in a non-academic culture, chooses to study for the ACT/SAT and score a 30+.....it really does say a lot about their character and how they prioritize life. Versus someone who has had their hand held through the entire process, took prep-courses, etc.

[mbrlr]

Amen! The two cities in the Mid-South (I don't think Jackson counts) should work together. Little Rock should get past its tendency to look to Dallas and look East.

[itk]

That's the big reason I went to the UA-- a free ride. That's always a good reason

If I remember correctly I did poorly on SAT, but did enough on ACT-- fortunately, getting perfect scores on science and perfect -1 on math categories offset my horrible scores on my english and reading categories... big srupirse...

[arkansas_buff]

my horrible scores on my english and reading categories... big srupirse...

This line made me laugh out loud. Thanks. By the way, I never took the SAT, but I scored a 31 on my ACT. I had heard that they changed the format for the ACT up quite a bit with a lot of writing now. Is that true?

I think it's hard to judge a persons intelligence with multiple choice questions.

[johnnydr87]

This line made me laugh out loud. Thanks. By the way, I never took the SAT, but I scored a 31 on my ACT. I had heard that they changed the format for the ACT up quite a bit with a lot of writing now. Is that true?

I think it's hard to judge a persons intelligence with multiple choice questions.

Yeah.

There is now a writing section for both the SAT and ACT. The SAT has upped the difficulty of its questions across the board as well.

The writing section for the ACT is averaged into your english score. (With the writing section factored in, I still got a 34 overall.) Unlike the SAT, it is optional. Some colleges require the writing section; some don't. My best section was reading comprehension.

The SAT writing section is a helluva lot heftier than the ACT's version. It also includes a whole new array of grammatical questions. I pretty much hated it.

I bet the average ACT of the Arkansas board is in the 30-32 range. That's pretty remarkable.

[mcheiss]

Yeah.

There is now a writing section for both the SAT and ACT. The SAT has upped the difficulty of its questions across the board as well.

The writing section for the ACT is averaged into your english score. (With the writing section factored in, I still got a 34 overall.) Unlike the SAT, it is optional. Some colleges require the writing section; some don't. My best section was reading comprehension.

You guys all pwn me. When I took the ACT 6 or 7 years ago, the highest I got was a 25.

[Aporkalypse]

You guys all pwn me. When I took the ACT 6 or 7 years ago, the highest I got was a 25.

You know what?

I know people who had scores in the 33-34 range that never did anything with their life. One guy I know is an unemployed writer.

I also know doctors, lawyers, and engineers with ACT scores that were in the 25ish range.

[johnnydr87]

You know what?

I know people who had scores in the 33-34 range that never did anything with their life. One guy I know is an unemployed writer.

I also know doctors, lawyers, and engineers with ACT scores that were in the 25ish range.

No. Way.

I figured good scores=future billionaire or something.

[Aporkalypse]

No. Way.

I figured good scores=future billionaire or something.

I was just confirming what we all knew, since mcheiss runs the show around here and all.

[turboturtle]

The private schools just offer a better shot at going to a good college and getting a 4-year degree for your average middle of the road kid. The best students will excel anywhere but average kids do better in a disciplined environment with a lot of instruction and there are a lot of distractions in the LR public schools and kids that don't care. This is the same reason Bryant, Cabot, and Conway schools are growing by leaps and bounds.

I believe fear is a motivator for some parents who enroll their children in private school in Pulaski County. Some of the fear is based in prejudice, both racial and socio-economic class. Another factor that I believe motivates some parents is their perception that, if I am paying money for the education then it must be good. With Catholic and Mount St. Marys there was, in my day, a belief that it was a good place for students to learn discipline. I would not doubt it, if that perception still exists. Religion also plays a role somewhere in the decision-making.

What is the academic arguement for attending private school in Pulaski County? It took all the private schools in Pulaski County to equal the academic success of Little Rock Central's 19 National Merit Semi-finalist. How does a private school student have a 'better shot' when the private schools have not figured out how to consistently outperform the public schools? I contend that it is not the private school giving 'your average middle of the road kid' a better shot at going to a good college, it is the financial achievement/sacrifice of the parents.

From today's Artimes...

It was a good year for public schools in Pulaski County this year, if your measure is National Merit Scholarship semi-finalists. The public schools produced 28 this year, compared with 20 last year, while private schools held steady at 19.

Little Rock Central High again led the state with 19, followed by Fayetteville and the Arkansas School for Mathematics, Sciences and the Arts in Hot Springs at 16; Fort Smith Southside with 14, and Cabot High with 12.

In Pulaski County, after Central, came Pulaski Academy with 6; ParkviewMagnet and Episcopal Collegiate with 4; Pulaski Mills and Little Rock Christian with 3; North Little Rock, Catholic and Central Arkansas Christian with 2, and one each at Lutheran and Mount St. Mary. There were two home-schooled semi-finalists from Pulaski County, among six statewide.

In all Pulaski produced 49 of the state