Eastland Mall Redevelopment

[monsoon]

Let's keep in mind that SouthPark is also a 1970s mall and at one time was considered inferior to Eastland. The difference is that developers continued to invest in it to keep it current because it has the demographics to support the kind of retail that is located there. Eastland failed not because of its building, which I consider to still be quite nice, but because that section of town has been abandoned by the middle class. I've said this before, but regional shopping malls are all about getting people to pay unreasonable prices for mass produced merchandise, and that means they have to have a large contingent of the middle class around to support it. Eastland does not have this anymore and that is it's problem.

The city has mostly neglected East Charlotte over the past couple of decades choosing instead to spend billions in the center city and nearby, and none for anybody else. Now they have reaped the harvest of that short sighted decision. The biggest municipal construction project in that part of town has been the conversion of Independence to a freeway which has effectively cut off Eastland's part of the city from the most affluent neighborhoods in the city.

To give you an example of what I am talking about, the city right now is talking about selling off valuable assets such as Spirit Square and getting rid of park land, so there can be a baseball stadium built in yet again the center city. Why not put this stadium on the Eastland property and use the opportunity to combine it with other enterprises that would bring opportunities to East Charlotte instead of handouts? It won't happen of course, because of the myopic vision that currently exists in this city that we have to everything great and new put within walking distance of Trade and Tryon, while vast areas of the rest of the city continue to decay away.

The bottom line is that Eastland has become an albatross due to the broken planning and land use decisions that continue to be made by this city. At this point it may be best to tear it down as I don't see any other alternative that might work there unless there are some priority changes made in city investments.

[nmcheese]

The plan does appear to be somewhat cookie cutter in the current 'tear down, rebuild as strip-mall-with-condos' theme of suburban development, and I'm not sure that would work for that part of town. There is already a large existing housing stock in the mile surrounding the mall site, as well as (rather run down) retail along Central and Sharon Amity.

This would be a good tie-in to the Middle Ring neighborhood discussion we had in a different thread.

Central and Sharon Amity roads are important city streets and should be treated as such and planned around. Instead of redeveloping the lot into an island of parks and condos the streets should be the main focus. Make them more pedestrian friendly (wide sidewalks, plan ahead for the Central Ave. streetcar even), focus all the restaurants/retail along the streets (with condos above them of course) - make the lot a part of the city infrastructure, not leaving it to stand alone in that neighborhood. As for the 'back' of the property - tie it into the existing neighborhoods - small single family homes, townhomes, whatever, as long as the main focus of the development is improving the street corridors.

This could serve as an example for how Central Ave should develop south of Midwood - Dense along the street, denser individual residential units behind the main streets (anything within walking distance), fading back to single family homes in the existing neighborhood.

Edited March 9, 2007 by nmcheese

[DigitalSky]

The plan does appear to be somewhat cookie cutter in the current 'tear down, rebuild as strip-mall-with-condos' theme of suburban development, and I'm not sure that would work for that part of town. There is already a large existing housing stock in the mile surrounding the mall site, as well as (rather run down) retail along Central and Sharon Amity.

This would be a good tie-in to the Middle Ring neighborhood discussion we had in a different thread.

Central and Sharon Amity roads are important city streets and should be treated as such and planned around. Instead of redeveloping the lot into an island of parks and condos the streets should be the main focus. Make them more pedestrian friendly (wide sidewalks, plan ahead for the Central Ave. streetcar even), focus all the restaurants/retail along the streets (with condos above them of course) - make the lot a part of the city infrastructure, not leaving it to stand alone in that neighborhood. As for the 'back' of the property - tie it into the existing neighborhoods - small single family homes, townhomes, whatever, as long as the main focus of the development is improving the street corridors.

This could serve as an example for how Central Ave should develop south of Midwood - Dense along the street, denser individual residential units behind the main streets (anything within walking distance), fading back to single family homes in the existing neighborhood.

You're correct. The plan is generic and cookie cutter for Eastland. I laughed out loud when I looked at the ULI's example pics in the PDF file..showing an upscale town center with Crate and Barrel and Cheesecake Factory. It was rather absurd of them to include that in there, because Eastland isn't destined to be an upscale town center, but more of a community center. They definately should be more pedestrian friendly too

[mallguy]

A few thoughts about the mall in the "corridor of crap" (what a great catch phrase!):

1- our next forum meet should be at Eastland

2- a redevelopment of the area should definitely be high-density and pedestrian-friendly. I'd guess that the percentage of people without cars who live around that area is high; CATS ridership is very high around there, and there are plenty of people who walk around, even up and down Central Avenue

3- I still just see the mall becoming more and more run down, and eventually anchored by Sears and Burlington Coat Factory (in the 2 least visible anchor spots) and with urban-style stores inside the mall. Eventually demolition, but who'll pay the demolition costs other than a developer, and who wants to redevelop the site? Not me.

4- wonder if the owners of the new movie theater are re-thinking the wisdom of opening at Eastland, as that Urban Land Institute study basically says (to me), "clear out, we're tearing down the mall!"

Edited March 10, 2007 by mallguy

[Justadude]

If the replacement project is to be pedestrian-friendly, the design is going to have to be VERY carefully done. The east side is already known for having roving gangs patrolling its major streets (I say this as someone who travels Eastway and Shamrock on a daily basis, so that's not suburban ignorance speaking), and I doubt that people will be jumping over each other to walk that area on foot... especially at night. The only way pedestrianism is going to work in that environment is if the area is TOTALLY revamped with safety in mind, and CMPD makes it a high priority to keep the area thug-free. Otherwise a "town center" in that location will be nothing but a crime magnet.

[monsoon]

......but who'll pay the demolition costs other than a developer, and who wants to redevelop the site? Not me.

This is why it should be part of a city project(s) to the help jumpstart the area. As I mentioned above, there has been billions of city dollars spent in the center city in the last 30 years which has transformed it from a place that was once regarded much as the Eastland area is today. The same could be done for Eastland if the right focus could be placed on it.

The Eastland Mall area is just 30 years old and now its ready for the most part to be bulldozed down. I think that speaks volumes on the failure of city planning in this city.

[Charlotte_native]

To give you an example of what I am talking about, the city right now is talking about selling off valuable assets such as Spirit Square and getting rid of park land, so there can be a baseball stadium built in yet again the center city. Why not put this stadium on the Eastland property and use the opportunity to combine it with other enterprises that would bring opportunities to East Charlotte instead of handouts?

That might be one of the best ideas I've seen for baseball. You are right, and it will never happen, but that site and the area could really use something "new" (for the area) and useful rather than another Phillips/Birkdale-esqe faux town center.

Can't wait to the see the cheezy name the planners choose for this that will be completely inappropriate (like The Crossings and Seigle Point where Piedmont Courts used to be). Maybe we'll be lucky and get more strange olde english spelling.

Keep in with the old theme, Eastelynd, or maybe The Towne Centre on Centraal, or The Crossings at Central Pointe. Maybe a nod to the new inhabitants to the area and go for something with a bit of hispanic flavor.

I can say I have hundreds of great memories at Eastland -- I grew up on Central then we moved to Mint Hill, so this is where everyone went and hung out from 5th grade until leaving for college. I played hockey there for years, bought everything I wore from The County Seat, saw most of the movies from way back at the theater there. But what it is now, I won't be sad seeing it go.

[mallguy]

A baseball stadium on the Eastland site could be modeled after Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.

True that city planning hasn't put many big projects in East Charlotte but poor people have to live somewhere, and if there were stadiums and the like in the area, then the poor people would just move elsewhere and that area would go to pot as well. I'd prefer that governments stop programs that promote poverty and change to programs that promote wealth building, which would help areas such as east Charlotte.

I'll concede, though, that if the city did more with east Charlotte, the area would be somewhat nicer. Local government also needs to stop approving so much development at the urban fringe, such as Northlake Mall, which contributes to urban decay in less desirable areas.

[uptownliving]

I don't know that the Knights would be willing to pay for the stadium if it was built at the Eastland Mall site. I think that the public money that it would take to build the stadium there could be better spent on putting in public streets and sidewalks and public investment in revamping the mall into something more sustainable.

[monsoon]

It's the Knights that are coming here and asking for public involvement in order for them to build that stadium. If you hold them at their world on why they want to move then they should have no problem with the Eastland site (or one on Freedom/Wilkenson for that matter). The city/county ought to be looking at their leverage in this matter and place the condition that redevelopment be placed in one of the more depressed areas of Charlotte. The Eastland location is a difficult one for the stock urban village proposed for it, but it would be a perfect place for a minor league baseball stadium, which if designed property, could bring some important economic development to the area.

Eastland's problems are not the lack of housing and chain store eateries.

[Charlotte_native]

True that city planning hasn't put many big projects in East Charlotte but poor people have to live somewhere, and if there were stadiums and the like in the area, then the poor people would just move elsewhere and that area would go to pot as well. I'd prefer that governments stop programs that promote poverty and change to programs that promote wealth building, which would help areas such as east Charlotte.

Why would building a stadium here make poor people move?

[RubberNecker]

You can't move a minor league baseball team that is struggling to get fans to thier remote suburban location into a "crime ridden" area and hope it is going to be a success. I don't care how great a urban plan it is, nobody is taking on that venture at the Eastland location.

If the Knights were already a overwhelming success, or if the city was lacking summer time things to do, that may work. You could put the New York Yankees in a sheep pasture in northern Ireland and it would still get 35,000 people.

[monsoon]

You can't move a minor league baseball team that is struggling to get fans to thier remote suburban location into a "crime ridden" area and hope it is going to be a success.

Yet they put the Panthers in downtown when that part of town was considered much more dangerous than the Eastland area and people still went to it. I would not suggest that kind of urban renewal because for the most part, BofA stadium really hurt 3rd ward. However a better design could work at Eastland.

The would not consider it of course because there is a big bias in this town against any parts of the city that are not in downtown or SE Charlotte.

[uptownliving]

I think that whatever happens at Eastland they need to keep an Ice Rink as a central focus of the project. The year round ice rink surrounded by retail makes Eastland unique in the region.

It would take about $50M in public money to make a minor league basball stadium at Eastland work....and that is just a baseball stadium. It is general consensus that this town will be able to support major league baseball in the next 15 years. So 15 years from now that baseball stadium at Eastland would be just like the mall is there today: obseleate.

I think that whatever goes on the Eastland site needs to be a long term development...not something that will be obselete in 15 years.

[DigitalSky]

I think that whatever happens at Eastland they need to keep an Ice Rink as a central focus of the project. The year round ice rink surrounded by retail makes Eastland unique in the region.

It would take about $50M in public money to make a minor league basball stadium at Eastland work....and that is just a baseball stadium. It is general consensus that this town will be able to support major league baseball in the next 15 years. So 15 years from now that baseball stadium at Eastland would be just like the mall is there today: obseleate.

I think that whatever goes on the Eastland site needs to be a long term development...not something that will be obselete in 15 years.

Well guess what: http://www.icehouserinks.com/charlotte/index.html the Eastland Ice House is "temporarily closed" - no reason noted for it, or when it may/may not be reopening

[archiham04]

Putting a baseball stadium at EM would be completly inappropriate. This is the International Corridor. If a spectator sports component were to added it should be a soccer stadium for an MLS team. Talk about a contribution to the city that benefits people other than the uptown elite.

Current MLS teams:

Chicago Fire

Columbus Crew

D.C. United

Kansas City Wizards

New York Red Bulls

New England Revolution

Toronto FC

Club Deportivo Chivas USA

Colorado Rapids

FC DallasHouston Dynamo

Los Angeles Galaxy

Real Salt Lake

I think this could catch on like WILDFIRE! Think of all the fans from all over. Not just in the international corridor, but all the soccer moms and dads all accross the burbs...

OLE!...,OLE!,OLE!....,OLE!....

Edited March 12, 2007 by archiham04

[redjeep77]

Putting a baseball stadium at EM would be completly inappropriate. This is the International Corridor. If a spectator sports component were to added it should be a soccer stadium for an MLS team. Talk about a contribution to the city that benefits people other than the uptown elite.

Current MLS teams:

Chicago Fire

Columbus Crew

D.C. United

Kansas City Wizards

New York Red Bulls

New England Revolution

Toronto FC

Club Deportivo Chivas USA

Colorado Rapids

FC DallasHouston Dynamo

Los Angeles Galaxy

Real Salt Lake

I think this could catch on like WILDFIRE! Think of all the fans from all over. Not just in the international corridor, but all the soccer moms and dads all accross the burbs...

OLE!...,OLE!,OLE!....,OLE!....

I like the idea, but i am not so sure that most of america is ready to support soccer. There would have to be a huuuge fan base to support soccer. A few years ago, they tried to have a big league soccer game in bank of america stadium between two teams from mexico. They expected a large draw due to the latino population, but only 2k or so people showed up.

What's the average ticket price of a MLS game?

[fortyniner]

The Knights want to move to South End/Uptown. There is NO way they would consider building their own stadium at Eastland or anywhere other than the above mentioned location. I don't blame them. I know it is a looooonnnnnggg shot, but I still prefer the Jerry Reese plan for a MLB stadium in Second Ward. Even without the baseball, the basketball tournaments sound good. Charlotte needs to obtain MLB (and possibly struggle with attendance a few years) rather than let Tidewater, Raleigh, or Greensboro get it first. Think there will be 2 MLB teams in the Carolinas in your lifetime? There WILL be one, and it should be here. I could live with the Knights plan a whole lot easier if that stadium could be expanded to MLB standards. Eastland, North Tryon, Freedom Drive, Wilkinson, and in 20 years, University City all have deteriorated. Projects like "C" and the big boxes and strip centers can be designated future renewal projects almost immediately after completion. I wish Eastland well, but I'm not thrilled with the plans I've seen for its revival. It's too risky for a privately owned AAA stadium. And there's no excitement or synergy there, let alone all the talk of the bankers going out for a game after work. I want the land swap and the park and the Brooklyn Village, but I also want something sustainable. AAA is fine if the city wants to compete with the likes of Durham. Allow me to quote John A. Tate, Jr., chairman of the Charlotte Master Plan Committee on page 5D of the "Charlotte News" September 8, 1966 edition from a special report on Charlotte and its future: "One major league team has more draw than 10 triple-A clubs. We've got to make Charlotte major league in all respects."

I still think what he said almost 41 years ago makes sense.

[archiham04]

What's the average ticket price of a MLS game?

Don't know. I read something that said that Dallas had the second lowest average in the league at $13. I would expect that the range from $12 and up.

Edited March 12, 2007 by archiham04

[mallguy]

I'm going to go ahead and write this mall off as dead. Having lost Harris Teeter, Belk, American Eagle, even Things Remembered and Chick-fil-A in the past 9 months, plus even the Dillard's clearance center getting sparser and sparser (and apparently on its way to close), plus now the Ice Rink and that ULI report stating that the mall should be torn down...there is no hope.

Odd that even in December the mall was PACKED with shoppers and didn't have many vacancies.

[DigitalSky]

I'm going to go ahead and write this mall off as dead. Having lost Harris Teeter, Belk, American Eagle, even Things Remembered and Chick-fil-A in the past 9 months, plus even the Dillard's clearance center getting sparser and sparser (and apparently on its way to close), plus now the Ice Rink and that ULI report stating that the mall should be torn down...there is no hope.

Odd that even in December the mall was PACKED with shoppers and didn't have many vacancies.

A real testament to how Belk's departure hurt the mall

[queensguy06]

That and it was the busiest shopping time of the year - Christmas.

[SCLA]

That might be one of the best ideas I've seen for baseball. You are right, and it will never happen, but that site and the area could really use something "new" (for the area) and useful rather than another Phillips/Birkdale-esqe faux town center.

Can't wait to the see the cheezy name the planners choose for this that will be completely inappropriate (like The Crossings and Seigle Point where Piedmont Courts used to be). Maybe we'll be lucky and get more strange olde english spelling.

Keep in with the old theme, Eastelynd, or maybe The Towne Centre on Centraal, or The Crossings at Central Pointe. Maybe a nod to the new inhabitants to the area and go for something with a bit of hispanic flavor.

I can say I have hundreds of great memories at Eastland -- I grew up on Central then we moved to Mint Hill, so this is where everyone went and hung out from 5th grade until leaving for college. I played hockey there for years, bought everything I wore from The County Seat, saw most of the movies from way back at the theater there. But what it is now, I won't be sad seeing it go.

Charlotte Native......thanks, this made me laugh out loud! I've always figured developers must think you can add another $10K to the house price by putting an 'e' at the end of a word. Heaven help us from any more nonsensical, pretentious British-sounding names. Or, they try instead for some romantic reference to a natural, rustic landscape feature......which of course the bulldozers efficiently obliterated along with all the good topsoil. My observation is that the subdivision name glorifies whatever they destroyed to make way for the garage-mahals.

[cinco]

last night, @ the charlotte museum of history, i attended a press conference hosted by the eastside community leaders.

they didn't announce anything concrete - it was basically a meeting to intiate a drive to re-develop eastland mall. the east side community leaders want to put pressure on the city council and eastland's owner to get rid of the mall and replace it with a birkdale ala philips place kind of development, that will become the eastsides center location. along with the mixed use idea, they want to uncap the creek that runs under the mall (i had no idea)... and restore it to a greenway. like i said, nothing set in stone yet. but, it was a very positive crowd with some good ideas. 14 neighborhoods were represented by some mighty proud eastsiders.

i have to admit, while ambitious, i think the plan sounds good. it is important to note while comparing the idea to birkdale and PP, one of the planners that spoke, emphasized the need for a more sustainable model. no vinyl, no EFIS. of course, i hope they take that idea and push it much further.

the potential is there and if enough people get behind this - i think we will see some action.

[queensguy06]

I heard a story on this on NPR this morning. They want to make a park/greenway, retail, residential (they didn't mention condos, townhomes, etc.), and commercial space. I still don't know if a Philips or Birkdale will work there right now. That area has a reputation for being rough, and for good reason. I moved away from Hickory Grove because of that reason. I think buyers are going to be quite hesitant to purchase high end condos/townhomes when people are getting shot in the head less than a mile down the road. At a Chuckie Cheese, none-the-less.