Public Transit in Providence

[Cotuit]

Actually, because the streetcar tracks run on regular roads and can make 90 degree turns, unlike longer trains, I would expect that they would run it up the current bus tunnel...

I don't think the bus tunnel could run trolleys and buses. As is, I think it's really too small for buses running in two directions, when you lay track then you add the issue of buses slipping on the tracks and hitting each other. It may have to be made peak-directional or the buses may have to come out of it entirely.

Also, running on the surface through Wayland Square and College Hill will certainly bring out the NIMBYs. Though personally, I think Waterman/Angell and the Henderson Bridge make a terrific east/west transit corridor. There's lots of room in EP where land was cleared for the Route 44 expressway to build transit friendly development. A BRT or LRT corridor could be built from the Henderson Bridge to Wampanoag Plaza at the Junction of 44 and 1A. The land is already cleared for it. From there, buses/trolleys could run on Route 44 all the way to Taunton, connecting to the Fall River MBTA line.

If they were to use the East Side Train Tunnel, they would need to take the parking lot on the South Main end of the tunnel by eminent domain to build a stop there and if they want to have any stops between there and the other end of the tunnel on Gano street, they would need to build underground stations which I dont believe is feasible.

If they used the East Side rail tunnel I would envision some sort of large station structure at North Main. People would cry bloody murder, but like pdx.. I think it should continue elevated from the portal over North Main and ramp down to Canal Street, possibly elevated all the way across the river to behind Citizens. If it went to Canal, there would need to be a reverse diection lane for the track running the opposite direction of traffic. At the portal, there could be a parking structure under the station, it would actually increase the amount of parking there. Above would be a covered station, and at the ground level, beside the garage entrance would be room for a coffee shop or other retail spot. North Main buses would stop under the tracks to provide for transfers.

Of course this is all fantasy because I think the bloody murder screaming about an elevated track section would be insurmountable.

Subway stops on the East Side would also admittedly be very expensive, I think we'd only see one at Thayer, then a stop at the Gano Portal, no subway stop in Wayland Square, which would make the NIMBYs happy.

[Cotuit]

maybe RIPTA and GATRA (or RI and MA) need to get together to share funding for the buses that go across the state line and get more lines and/or better schedules.

In NYC, Nassau County buses fall under the MTA umbrella, but they do not make any stops in NYC. The run local in Nassau, then express to the hubs in Queens (Jamaica and Flushing). Similarly, the Westchester County B-Line buses also run local in Westchester, then express to hubs in The Bronx. If need be, expanded service to/from Massachusetts could run local in Mass, then express from the state line to Providence.

I do think PATH is classified as a Commuter Rail now that I think of it. Though it runs 24 hours and uses subway cars, I don't know who they think they're fooling.

[PVDJack]

So Valley Street streetcar would serve the new Alco development near Eagle Square and Allens Street Streetcar would serve the Providence Waterfront, Former I-195 lands and Fields Point.

While thrilled for any street cars, I was hoping for either a N. Main or Hope St. line that went at least to the city line, and preferably into downtown Pawtucket.

Any thoughts on why such a line wasn't mentioned? Not enough of a population center? NIMBYism? Something else?

Thanks,

PVDJack

[Cotuit]

Any thoughts on why such a line wasn't mentioned? Not enough of a population center? NIMBYism? Something else?

Probably a little of both, but also, if a Commuter Rail stop is built in Pawtucket, it and Providence will have a direct rail connection, while not frequent, it will be fast. With limited funds, you're going to want to not duplicate service. So with rail planned to the north, the focus should be east/west.

[Recchia]

RIPTA, SRTA and GATRA right now split the urbanized area formula for FTA funding for capital (since they all operate in the Providence urbanized area), so technically they do share funding for buses. RIPTA is the recipient and then they have an agreement that gives a certain amount to GATRA and a certain amount to SRTA.

GATRA and SRTA, if anyone has noticed, are very mediocre in comparison to RIPTA, as should be expected though since they are smaller and serve less population.

[mr2448]

are the PATH trains considered commuter trains according to those regulations? also, NYC has a lot of strange laws and regulations going on that don't exist elsewhere, which could explain this.

maybe RIPTA and GATRA (or RI and MA) need to get together to share funding for the buses that go across the state line and get more lines and/or better schedules.

It would be great to have buses go directly up Route 1 to Emerald square from Providence thru Pawtucket/Broadway. Also a Newport Ave bus into East Prov. from the So. Attleboro MBTA station. The East Providence buses could comtinue onto Fall River Ave in either direction and Route 6. Ripta could also meet up with SETA(Fall River bus service) and continue from Swansea into Warren/Bristol.

FYI: The Newport and West Barrington service had been Bonanza service up until 1973. Bonanza also had Fall River local service down Route 6. That might still exist?

Mark

[KBagley]

I was thinking this morning.... A streetcar line has to be a loop, not a point A to point B thing, otherwise you can only have one car on the line, which will not work. So every route we've talked about, double the miles, multiply by $30 million per mile (is this really true?) and ouch....

[glassandsteel]

are the PATH trains considered commuter trains according to those regulations? also, NYC has a lot of strange laws and regulations going on that don't exist elsewhere, which could explain this.

maybe RIPTA and GATRA (or RI and MA) need to get together to share funding for the buses that go across the state line and get more lines and/or better schedules.

Or give us back the land that goes up to Fall River? Eh? Am I the only Rhode Islander that wants Fall River within state lines? Probably, huh? Oh well, it's just a dream at this point anyway.

[Recchia]

Or give us back the land that goes up to Fall River? Eh? Am I the only Rhode Islander that wants Fall River within state lines? Probably, huh? Oh well, it's just a dream at this point anyway.

I'd have no problem with Fall River being part of RI. I'd rather have New Bedford, then we could claim to have the number one fishing port in the country (in value of catch that is), but that's impossible.

[mr2448]

Or give us back the land that goes up to Fall River? Eh? Am I the only Rhode Islander that wants Fall River within state lines? Probably, huh? Oh well, it's just a dream at this point anyway.

OK, we make it Fall River, R.I. again, but to do that we give up McCoy Stadium and the PawSox to Massachusetts. No Way!!

Mark

[pdxstreetcar]

I was thinking this morning.... A streetcar line has to be a loop, not a point A to point B thing, otherwise you can only have one car on the line, which will not work. So every route we've talked about, double the miles, multiply by $30 million per mile (is this really true?) and ouch....

The streetcar can be double track and in fact very likely would be in most sections. Also the $30 million/mile number is for double track.

I'm very interested how and what streets the streetcar would run on downtown, I'm assuming the Allens Ave. line would run on Eddy thru the Jewelry District and I'm guessing the Valley Road line would run on Smith Road between Valley Rd and the State House, but as far as downtown, I've got no guesses. It could be a nice traffic calming device for Memorial Blvd. but somehow I have a hard time seeing that happen.

[Cotuit]

I'm hearing scuttlebutt about a privately operated water taxi running from the Providence River (up stream a bit) to Providence Piers, "soon".

[matt]

I'm hearing scuttlebutt about a privately operated water taxi running from the Providence River (up stream a bit) to Providence Piers, "soon".

Where's that?

BTW, is anyone with a low-clearance boat allowed to tie up in Waterplace?

[Cotuit]

Where's that?

Based on what I've heard, if I had to speculate on the exact route it would be either Dyer Street Landing (outside the Crawford Bridge) or the Memorial Park Landing (across from the Courthouse) to Providence Piers (Conley Wharf on Allens Ave.). At Providence Piers you can make a transfer to the Newport Ferry. I'm hearing no East Providence service, at least not this season.

[Recchia]

Since some of us are too caught up in bickering over hotel rooms and 110 and metaphors, I'm going to post this again in this thread:

RIDOT Scope of Work for Commuter Rail Phase II

HELLO PEOPLE, THE SCOPE OF WORK HAS A WHOLE SECTION IN IT TO INVESTIGATE LRT AND BRT IN PROVIDENCE AND CRANSTON. This is big news, someone is finally going to officially study this. This isn't a blind promise from the mayor, or anything, it's the real thing. Get excited damnit!

[runawayjim]

Since some of us are too caught up in bickering over hotel rooms and 110 and metaphors, I'm going to post this again in this thread:

RIDOT Scope of Work for Commuter Rail Phase II

HELLO PEOPLE, THE SCOPE OF WORK HAS A WHOLE SECTION IN IT TO INVESTIGATE LRT AND BRT IN PROVIDENCE AND CRANSTON. This is big news, someone is finally going to officially study this. This isn't a blind promise from the mayor, or anything, it's the real thing. Get excited damnit!

WOO HOO!!!

[Frankie811]

Since some of us are too caught up in bickering over hotel rooms and 110 and metaphors, I'm going to post this again in this thread:

RIDOT Scope of Work for Commuter Rail Phase II

HELLO PEOPLE, THE SCOPE OF WORK HAS A WHOLE SECTION IN IT TO INVESTIGATE LRT AND BRT IN PROVIDENCE AND CRANSTON. This is big news, someone is finally going to officially study this. This isn't a blind promise from the mayor, or anything, it's the real thing. Get excited damnit!

Are you still trying to get into the RIDOT?

[Baines]

Since some of us are too caught up in bickering over hotel rooms and 110 and metaphors, I'm going to post this again in this thread:

RIDOT Scope of Work for Commuter Rail Phase II

HELLO PEOPLE, THE SCOPE OF WORK HAS A WHOLE SECTION IN IT TO INVESTIGATE LRT AND BRT IN PROVIDENCE AND CRANSTON. This is big news, someone is finally going to officially study this. This isn't a blind promise from the mayor, or anything, it's the real thing. Get excited damnit!

Wow, as a frequent visitor to Providence I have always been surprized at the lack of light rail into the suburbs of such a crowded metro. That is a positive step and should be closely watched...would not want this first phase of action to end up on a desk.

[damus]

Sure it's a crowded metro but it seems like the businesses are mostly sprawled out and not located in a central business district. Downtown only has a handful of large office buildings.

[Cotuit]

Get excited damnit!

I'm excited. But I will be more excited when the proposals are submitted and there's a reasonable doable financing plan in place.

[Recchia]

I'm excited. But I will be more excited when the proposals are submitted and there's a reasonable doable financing plan in place.

Me too. I'm hoping we can put some of that earmarked money we got in SAFETEA-LU for the commuter rail project towards LRT or BRT. Since they're included in the scope under the name "Rhode Island Commuter Rail Extension Phase II", I'm thinking that we can.

[Baines]

Sure it's a crowded metro but it seems like the businesses are mostly sprawled out and not located in a central business district. Downtown only has a handful of large office buildings.

That is an excellent point. I guess that goes to the inability/unwillingness of the state (in particular) to 1) create the climate for big business to want to move to RI (and PVD) and 2) the lack of a big developer to "build it and they will come" attempt to get Hasbro, CVS, Amica, etc to move to Downcity.

But even a modest LRT would greatly contribute to 1) reducing metro congestion and 2) enhance the urban climate of PVD.

[MikeR]

I was thinking this morning.... A streetcar line has to be a loop, not a point A to point B thing, otherwise you can only have one car on the line, which will not work. So every route we've talked about, double the miles, multiply by $30 million per mile (is this really true?) and ouch....

No, it can be in a straight line - When I was in Lisbon a couple of years ago their steetcar system - its' called the "Electra" has at least 1 point-to-point line (no loops). The cars are timed to pick up people at stations and along the way the tracks "double" out here and there so trains going in the opposite direction can pass safely. Their #28 line was set up like that. I rode it from point to point; it passed through the most historic sections of Lisbon. I had to get off at the end of the line - "This ride...FINISHED!" the driver said to me in broken English.

The Electra is Lisbon original streetcar system - they built a subway decades later but the original steetcars serve the city's old inner core. They are fun to ride as you get to enjoy the streetscape as you go by. It could work for Providence...

Edit: Aha! I surfed the web on this system and here it is (including a pic of the #28 line I rode!) Read how they get the street car to go the other way. Cool!

http://www.euronet.nl/~crk/british/electricos.html

[mr2448]

the lack of a big developer to "build it and they will come" attempt to get Hasbro, CVS, Amica, etc to move to Downcity.

Amica has a great campus in Lincoln. They were downcity but left some 10 years ago. I don't think we should steal from the rest of Rhode Island. Woonsocket/Cumberland needs CVS to prosper. Pawtucket relies on Hasbro. What we need to do is entice outside of Rhode Island corporations to move here. also, we need to make sure that former incubator companies remain in Rhode island with their manufactoring base and possible corporate offices downcity. The slogan should be "Build it and they will stay"!

Mark

[KBagley]

No, it can be in a straight line - When I was in Lisbon a couple of years ago their steetcar system - its' called the "Electra" has at least 1 point-to-point line (no loops). The cars are timed to pick up people at stations and along the way the tracks "double" out here and there so trains going in the opposite direction can pass safely. Their #28 line was set up like that. I rode it from point to point; it passed through the most historic sections of Lisbon. I had to get off at the end of the line - "This ride...FINISHED!" the driver said to me in broken English.

The Electra is Lisbon original streetcar system - they built a subway decades later but the original steetcars serve the city's old inner core. They are fun to ride as you get to enjoy the streetscape as you go by. It could work for Providence...

Edit: Aha! I surfed the web on this system and here it is (including a pic of the #28 line I rode!) Read how they get the street car to go the other way. Cool!

http://www.euronet.nl/~crk/british/electricos.html

This is true, but if you consider the streetcar model in Portland Oregon, which I suspect Providence is most likely to emulate, the Streetcar goes with the flow of traffic and regular traffic is able to follow or cut in front of the streetcar as if it were any other vehicle on the road... so to have the streetcar be linear and return on the same tracks, it would then be against the flow of traffic on that street, so you essentially have to have a loop, even if it is only one block away.

I do believe someone responded to my earlier post and clarified that the $30 Million per mile cost includes the extra track needed for a loop, so if true, the cost per mile of actual track is around $15 million. thats a bit easier to swallow...