Charlotte Bobcats Arena

[rjp212]

It might not have been the best idea, but it certainly wasn't a loss. Sure there isn't a home game every night, but the place also holds the CIAA tourney, as well as numerous concerts that certainly bring people in that wouldn't otherwise.

When the arena was on the outskirts, those that went to the game usually went to the game and left. Alot of people now go to the game and then mingle around Uptown.

[NCN8ive]

There was a non-binding referendum held. There was no "vote". The council was not required to listen to the straw vote, plain and simple.

The arena hosts events at least 1/3 of the nights/days of the year. This is completely worth the investment.

Also, every other high profile downtown project we discuss on this board now was announced after the arena was built. That's not a coincidence.

[monsoon]

^Maybe, maybe not. These issues have already been discussed in this thread, but it is telling that many of the restaurants around the arena have complained about lack of sales even on game nights. It seems that most people don't have the money to got to a game, buy stuff in the arena, and then go running around downtown too. In other words, they go to the game and then go home.

[NCN8ive]

^Maybe, maybe not. These issues have already been discussed in this thread, but it is telling that many of the restaurants around the arena have complained about lack of sales even on game nights. It seems that most people don't have the money to got to a game, buy stuff in the arena, and then go running around downtown too. In other words, they go to the game and then go home.

[pazzo83]

There was a non-binding referendum held. There was no "vote". The council was not required to listen to the straw vote, plain and simple.

The arena hosts events at least 1/3 of the nights/days of the year. This is completely worth the investment.

Also, every other high profile downtown project we discuss on this board now was announced after the arena was built. That's not a coincidence.

[NCN8ive]

It would be pretty difficult to prove any sort of causation here, unless you had a meaningful, accurate way to guage each developer's reasons for announcing projects in uptown post-arena completion.

That having been said, spending my first week living here in uptown (coming from DC), I was out milling around on N College last night, and I was presently surprised by the liveliness close to the arena (for a Wednesday night). I think once more development occurs around there and once the light rail gets going, people will see that perhaps this investment wasn't completely misguided.

[monsoon]

....

That having been said, spending my first week living here in uptown (coming from DC), I was out milling around on N College last night, and I was presently surprised by the liveliness close to the arena (for a Wednesday night). I think once more development occurs around there and once the light rail gets going, people will see that perhaps this investment wasn't completely misguided.

[Neo]

Personal experience tells me otherwise.

I will agree with this. I have been to a couple of hockey games and a few concerts so far at the new arena and we always get a bite to eat before or after the show. On more than one occasion I have overheard folks saying how this was there first time at this particular restaurant and then they progressed to talk about the show that they were either heading to or coming back from at the new arena. I have yet to be downtown on a game night or a night where another show is being held at the new arena that that general area doesn't have a great deal of people wandering around.

Having said that, I would have much rather had an aquarium downtown. Now having said THAT, I'd say my visits to the new arena have been MUCH more frequent than what would have been had an aquarium been built instead. An aquarium would have created an even greater deadspace IMO. If we're going by numbers on how many times venues uptown are used then we might as well consider them all dead because none of them are used 365 days out of the year, especially when you consider the amount of people that visit the arena in one sitting alone.

[pazzo83]

Yes, it would be difficult to prove. I think that's the issue with the whole arguement. It's easy to say it was a waste of money, because there is really no way to prove or disprove the statement. But, you can look at the entire wave of development that has swept the center city. The arena is at least a part of that wave, and I believe a catalyst to some of it.

Whether or not, it's built. Wouldn't it make the most sense to make the most of it? That's just a general question, not directed at you. I certainly understand what you are saying pazzo.

[pazzo83]

Building the light rail and condo developments have nothing to do with the arena's affect on downtown. If anything the statement only validate the fact that after several years, the arena has not done much, if anything at all to bring the vibrancy to downtown that was promoised for it.

I will point out that $300M would also go a very long ways towards getting another light rail line built to the center city now. This is where the term that I used earlier, "opportunity lost" comes into play. This, IMO would have been the much better investment.

[New Name]

The light rail and the arena are very important to each other: namely, giving the light rail a definite destination. I am baffled by the fact that the South Corridor has no real destinations (but that's a discussion for another topic). As much as I would like to have more lines on the transit system, it's more important to build destinations for the one we have: the arena is a start.

[Raintree21]

While I disagree with the way it was done and the size of the venue, I don't think the Arena does anything but add to the downtown experience. It does seem to add to the number of people in the downtown area before and after the games/events. I've only been to one Checker's game but afterwards I went to RiRa's and Connolly's and both were full of people. No way of telling if that was due to the game or not but there's one example.

What about comparing the arena to other downtown venues? BOA Stadium only hosts what? 10-15 events a year? There hasn't been much development around it. But you could argue that merchandise sales, etc. help out. What about Discovery Place? Besides the school kids going on field trips there, I wonder what the turnstile numbers are there. Same goes for Spirit Square. While their contribution to education and arts are valuable, does their revenue make it worthwhile? McColl peforming arts center? While a private venue, they seemingly are in the same boat. They only have about 40 events a year right? My point is, there are numerous other examples of public and private works throughout downtown that do not have their schedule booked 365 days a year but they are considered a vital part of downtown life.

[monsoon]

^Two things in that comparison.

You can take the cost of all of those places together to the city and they would not add up to what it cost the city to build that arena. And second, the people voted against it.

[Charlotte_native]

^Maybe, maybe not. These issues have already been discussed in this thread, but it is telling that many of the restaurants around the arena have complained about lack of sales even on game nights. It seems that most people don't have the money to got to a game, buy stuff in the arena, and then go running around downtown too. In other words, they go to the game and then go home.

[pazzo83]

^Two things in that comparison.

You can take the cost of all of those places together to the city and they would not add up to what it cost the city to build that arena. And second, the people voted against it.

[bork]

^Two things in that comparison.

You can take the cost of all of those places together to the city and they would not add up to what it cost the city to build that arena. And second, the people voted against it.

[monsoon]

The interesting thing here, metro, is that you are the only one who is against the arena. .....

[jednc]

I will agree with this. I have been to a couple of hockey games and a few concerts so far at the new arena and we always get a bite to eat before or after the show. On more than one occasion I have overheard folks saying how this was there first time at this particular restaurant and then they progressed to talk about the show that they were either heading to or coming back from at the new arena. I have yet to be downtown on a game night or a night where another show is being held at the new arena that that general area doesn't have a great deal of people wandering around.

Having said that, I would have much rather had an aquarium downtown. Now having said THAT, I'd say my visits to the new arena have been MUCH more frequent than what would have been had an aquarium been built instead. An aquarium would have created an even greater deadspace IMO. If we're going by numbers on how many times venues uptown are used then we might as well consider them all dead because none of them are used 365 days out of the year, especially when you consider the amount of people that visit the arena in one sitting alone.

[AuLukey]

I completely agree that the arena is a good investment in the long run, assuming we don't get caught up in another "i won't stay unless..." situations. I don't think Charlotte will have that twice, not for a long time (let's hope.)

As for the nightlife on event nights I second every post on here. In fact, I have a great example from a couple months ago but decided not to post it on here to avoid this "was the arena worth it" debate from arising again as it is overall pointless since it is there and we just need to deal. I was out one night with a few friends who work uptown. RiRa's and Phil's (to name a few) were really busy. I asked my buddy who works at Phil's why the places were so packed compared to normal and he gave the explanation that it was a game night. A few weeks later I went out and Phil's was relatively empty. I asked and my same friend said "nothing is happening uptown tonight."

If nothing is happening uptown, what brings people there? Outside of the people that want to go to clubs and the handful of restaurants, Uptown dies after about 8. It has progressively gotten better over the last four years I've gone uptown at least two or three times a month. However, there is no comparison to concert and game nights.

As Neo said, if an aquarium was built, how often would people go? Certainly not 15,000 a day (or 5,000 for comparison sakes.) I'd love to have one near uptown, but I believe the arena brings much more uptown than most other attractions could bring. If we could squeeze a theme park or NASCAR speedway in uptown...

Also, as was said earlier by pazzo, having this in the center of our metro means that the infrastructure is already there to adequately support traffic caused by the arena. This way, it all filters out rather than how Tyvola looked on game nights before. Boy I just loved sitting in that traffic which, oh btw, was all pretty much headed in the same direction on the same road(s). Having the arena uptown means that parking is dispersed over many streets and the flow of traffic is not all headed in the same direction on the same exact roads. This, in my opinion, is a much more effective method of hosting events of any kind. Why the original coliseum was built so far out I don't know, but the infrastructure there was not well planned. In all reality, for the infrastructure in the Coliseum area to have been upgraded to the level that the arena site offered, it probably would've cost well over $300mil and would have only served the arena. My point is, the option to build a new arena is cheaper and makes more sense than upgrading the much needed infrastructure out there. Not that that would have ever happened as it isn't justifiable, but just saying for example.

IMHO, having the arena there does not create a dead spot. It may seem that way right now, but as more development pops up along Trade, the arena retail parcels open, more events will probably warm up to the arena bringing in larger or at least more frequent crowds. However, and not to change subjects, but having the transit center across the street creates an enormous dead spot. I don't get why we can't be like most cities and include more than just a bus terminal there. Yes, yes, I know the LRT will have a stop connected to it, but just the same, there could be a building there. Nothing says you can't have office space above a bus terminal. I've seen it done quite successfully in other cities. Sure the street level can't be TOO inviting as the buses have to have an effect place to turn in and out, but there is space there for other uses like small retail, screens, advertisements, etc. I mean, at least give it a nicer crosswalk, this is a prominent road just a few blocks from the Square. And, if indeed BoA does not plan on tearing down the parking deck, when they retrofit, the city should push for retail space to front Trade as this further would enhance that corridor's appeal for pedestrians.

[Nostyle]

Indeed. And this drives home the point that spending $300M to scrap a perfectly good arena to be replaced by one downtown has done nothing to get people interested in the NBA, build team spirit in the community, nor make downtown a more vibrant place.

The $300M represents a huge opportunity lost to have done something much more interesting for the the public at large. A public, which BTW, voted not to have a new arena. The politicians who sold themselves out to the NBA should have paid attention to what the people wanted. If anything, they could have used this money to build a huge capped park over I-277 which seems to be more desired these days than a ticket to the Bobcats.

[monsoon]

40+ nights a year the arena brings 15,000 or more people Uptown just for the Bobcats alone. There are other events held at the arena as well. .

[Neo]

And in comparison the Atlanta Aquarium, which IMO would have been a much better investment, brought in 1.5 million visitors in its first 140 days of operation and 3 million visitors the first year it was open. It has brought a travel boom to Atlanta, something that Charlotte desperately lacks in terms of attractions that might draw more than just a few sports fans, and gave them national attention. The Bobcats arena pales in comparison and creates a huge dead space right in the center of town the vast majority of the time it sits there closed.

This is what I meant by lost opportunity and the city blew it when they bent over to the NBA to build them this arena. And the fact remains, it's done nothing to spur interest in the NBA in this city which has been pretty much dead in Charlotte for the last decade now.

I don't see the arena as simply something that we bent over just for the NBA for. I think that it is great that we can finally have large concerts downtown instead of in the suburbs like we did with the previous coliseum. I'm MUCH more apt to go to a concert or event downtown than I am in the crap location it was before and countless others have mentioned the headache of traffic, etc. with the old location. Amazingly I can now leave from an event at the new arena and it doesn't appear any different than any other night downtown because the traffic flows so well.

If you take the number of 15k for 40 game nights at the arena you come up with 600k people, that's just for the Bobcats. I don't know the numbers for hockey, concerts, shows, etc. held at the arena but I'm willing to wager that the arena brings in close to the 1.5 million number that the Atlanta aquarium does. Also, Atlanta is already very well known in the US and is a couple of decades ahead of us in terms of tourism to the city. Would an extremely large aquarium do this for our city? I don't believe that alone would have done this, and this new arena doesn't either, but I believe that it does step us up closer to the plate of being a place folks will come.

[Nostyle]

The arena is 'deadspace'? More dead than the parking lots that used to sit there? You're talking about a single facility that attracts thousands of people probably half the nights of the year. You have NBA games (15k a game), ECHL games (5k a game), concerts, events, etc. You're trying to downplay the significance of having a center city arena and I'm not sure why. And I'm floored that you'd call it 'deadspace'. I guess we should knock it down and get back the parking lots that used to be there.

An aquarium would be a great idea too, by the way. I don't want to detract from that idea. It sure is a hit in Atlanta. Such a hit, that it's making it easy for you to use it as a comparison...rather than Atlanta's own arena, which was also built downtown. I guess Atlanta has a 'deadspace' arena too.

[nowensone]

^ Dead space in the sense that it is not used on a day in, day out basis, but yeah, I agree you have to compare it to what was previously there (surface lots), and counter that against what eventually might have been put there otherwise. So there is a somewhat plausible argument for saying it has "created" deadspace from a future perspective, but long term I think it brings more residents downtown, thereby "offsetting" this effect.

I think there is a good compromise for those on both sides of the fence here, clearly these venues need to be very near downtown so as not to promote sprawl and to enliven the city center, but they could have been placed just outside the 277 loop where they would not disrupt otherwise good gridding (too late now of course). Hopefully a MLB field, when it eventually comes to CLT, will be so located.

[Neo]

Why don't we get this fired up over parking garages? Are they not the epitome of dead space? Had a low rise condo tower gone here I would bet that absolutely no one would ever attribute it as being dead space, but with the arena there are many times more people on the streets than what would have been possible with a condo tower.

Unfortunately we have no idea how long it would have taken for something else other than the arena to go in this spot. It could have taken a decade or just a couple of years, no one knows and it is mute to argue that something better would have come along so soon to sweep downtown off its feet.