How the Crash Will Reshape America

[monsoon]

....The delusion that Americans possess some godly talent to excreate perfection is just that; a delusion. We do it just as well as the rest of the world. We only produce slightly less poor quality products because of motivation; money, the same thing keeping jobs in China.

[davidals]

I think the people are tired of hearing these theories from people.

[monsoon]

..... The global economy is not fair and we should not try to make it fair. If we want to be a part of it, we have to take the bumps and bruises that come with it. Learn from those hits and continue on. Not whine about it and cry for the rest of the world to play nice, cause I'll let you in on a little secret: they're not going to.

Glad to see you're realizing that foreign investment is good and we should not be headed towards a protectionist mindset.

[zenstyle]

I've been eagerly following this thread, and the responses to the original question.

^ Davidal's post stole my thought-balloon. Here's my answer the "How will the crash reshape America:" from my micro-economic perspective:

1. The gradual lessening of job-snobbery. See explanation above (thanks, Davidals!)

2. The eventual decriminalization of the phrase "I can't afford it." For the past many years, uttering this heinous phrase has been received as a misdemeanor, if not a high crime. Whattasmatta, are you a poor person? What, you ride the bus or something? DON'T YOU MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO DO XY AND Z? What's that awful smell? Oh, it's that city-dwelling, non-cublicle-dwelling, errr

[tamias6]

To those that seem to want to stay the course by letting we americans lay down on our backs and let the global economy stomp all over the US. Why should all of us feel obligated to lower our standard of living? Why is it wrong to work for a better life and more importantly a better life for our children? Its find to jump into the global economy and also its great that many other countries are rising up from 2nd and third world status. However I don't want my nephew and nieces to grow up to find themselves in the same conditions said countries are emerging from just for the sake of "leveling the playing field". If anything we Americans can and should be doing a better job of fighting tooth and nail to keep our standards living from slipping any further.

[AlexPKeaton]

Nobody is being delusional except for people who would make or believe such grand sweeping statements that don't reflect reality. I have never said that bad management isn't happening and GM is a classic example of a corporation that has been run into the ground by bad short sighted management interested in short term profits over long term sustainability, market leadership and goals. This kind of management failure however isn't a justification for placing jobs overseas which is another example of the same thing.

[crinzema]

To those that seem to want to stay the course by letting we americans lay down on our backs and let the global economy stomp all over the US. Why should all of us feel obligated to lower our standard of living? Why is it wrong to work for a better life and more importantly a better life for our children? Its find to jump into the global economy and also its great that many other countries are rising up from 2nd and third world status. However I don't want my nephew and nieces to grow up to find themselves in the same conditions said countries are emerging from just for the sake of "leveling the playing field". If anything we Americans can and should be doing a better job of fighting tooth and nail to keep our standards living from slipping any further.

[monsoon]

It was more an unwillingness to make the hard choices and take the path of least resistance instead. As much as many of us in Michigan like to blame the UAW, the auto companies agreed to those contracts. They were profitable still and didn't want to risk a prolonged strike. I suppose that is favoring short term profits over long term sustainability, but it's hardly excessive greed like you would imply.

[monsoon]

.. We should let the market decide who should be reward and who should be punished, not tax the society as a whole, or dig a debt pit that reaches Hell. If we are the one's punished for our reckless money management, we've only got ourselves to blame. We've created our bed, now we have to sleep in it. Our time of deciding how this was going to play out has long past. The only choice we have now is go to bed willingly or unwillingly.

[arcturus]

Blaming the problems of GM, Ford and Chrysler on the UAW is another attempt, mostly by Southern conservative lawmakers to demonize the domestic auto industry. The fact of the matter GM and Chrysler are dying because of very bad management and Ford has been there took but of late have made some changes that have kept them off the brink. What is missed by these arguments, that VW, Diamler, GM & Ford have done well in Europe where the unions are extremely strong.

[GR_Urbanist]

Maybe you didn't realize that you are contradicting yourself. It WAS the free market that caused the current mess to happen. Government regulations were removed from banking in the early 2000s. Regulations that had been put there in the 1930s when the same exact thing happened then. As soon as that happened your "greed is good" concept took hold and our economy was destroyed in less than 6-7 years. Now we are left with the choice of "the market" doling out the solution, complete economic collapse of the economy, or letting the federal government come back in and but some brakes on it.

Should the government remove FDIC insurance, a public subsidy, from the banks and walk away? Let the free market flush it out? I recommend a review of Herbert Hoover's administration.

You never answered why the "greed is good" and "free market" economy is putting 650,000 people out of work each week. (and those are the ones we know about)

[crinzema]

Maybe you didn't realize that you are contradicting yourself. It WAS the free market that caused the current mess to happen. Government regulations were removed from banking in the early 2000s. Regulations that had been put there in the 1930s when the same exact thing happened then. As soon as that happened your "greed is good" concept took hold and our economy was destroyed in less than 6-7 years. Now we are left with the choice of "the market" doling out the solution, complete economic collapse of the economy, or letting the federal government come back in and but some brakes on it.

Should the government remove FDIC insurance, a public subsidy, from the banks and walk away? Let the free market flush it out? I recommend a review of Herbert Hoover's administration.

You never answered why the "greed is good" and "free market" economy is putting 650,000 people out of work each week. (and those are the ones we know about)

[crinzema]

as they give up freedoms and liberties for "economic security", and find that in the end they have neither.

[davidals]

Uh, if government regulation out the wazoo is so great, then why not just have EVERYTHING regulated and make things perfect? Worked for the Soviets. Cant imagine why we dont do it now... /sarcasm

...

And I'm sorry, but the free market does work and has for centuries, and it is not a philosophy of "greed is good" but of people either staying on the straight and narrow and being rewarded for their good behavior with success and riches, or by people going to far and having the market correct them either through their business going under or by people no longer patronizing their shops. You dont need some government hack to do that because they will most likely foul it up.

The free market does not guarantee an equal outcome, only an opportunity to try.

[crinzema]

We could go into the details how the deck of cards fell all day long. But to me, that's like trying to understand the physics of the cards falling and not trying to understand what caused the cards to fall in the first place. This may be a comical theory to you guys, its a laugh at best, but let me just throw it at you to see if it sticks.

Who's the one who picks out a house nowadays? Is it the guy? Hell no! When a woman marries a guy, they expect a house to come with the ring. And Who picks the house? Not the guy, couldn't be. And what kind of house do they pick? The one you can't afford of course. And what does the guy do? What do you think! He'd be damned if he didn't please his woman. Remember, it's only a theory of mine. I'd like to hear some shout outs on this one if it rings true.

Edit: I have nothing against women, I just think nowadays, they have more than their fair share of the decision making process on what house a couple buys. And they tend to pick houses out of the budget which I believe is part of the reason why we are in this mortgage fiasco. I know this because my mom had complete say over what house we would live at. Now we have a Mansion in Indiana that we can not afford and can't sell, and my family is living at a small 2 bedroom apartment that is as cramped as Hell.

[tamias6]

Uh, if government regulation out the wazoo is so great, then why not just have EVERYTHING regulated and make things perfect? Worked for the Soviets. Cant imagine why we dont do it now... /sarcasm

The banks were giving out risky loans to people who could not afford to pay them back at the behest of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Loans to buy crap they did not need and could not otherwise afford. When the bills came due, they did not pay(shocker). Only a blind chipmunk could not have seen that coming. Why do we need government to "fix" this? Get rid of the regulations, let these crooked banks go under, and let these ADULTS that got the loans learn a lesson by losing their shirts. New banks will emerge with better sense, people will live within their means, and everything gets back on track like it has in the past.

And I'm sorry, but the free market does work and has for centuries, and it is not a philosophy of "greed is good" but of people either staying on the straight and narrow and being rewarded for their good behavior with success and riches, or by people going to far and having the market correct them either through their business going under or by people no longer patronizing their shops. You dont need some government hack to do that because they will most likely foul it up.

The free market does not guarantee an equal outcome, only an opportunity to try.

Those 650,000 people are FREE to use the free market to make their own success. The losers, idiots, and people with no drive, will go to big daddy Obama looking for salvation, and will be disappointed when they find that there is no such thing as a free lunch as they give up freedoms and liberties for "economic security", and find that in the end they have neither.

It's a shame that we dont look to capitalist with envy to motivate us to do better, but envy to destroy them out of true greed. I mean they only provide jobs and goods, they need to be clamped down on hard by Washington D.C. before they strike again!

Sorry if I seem to ramble a bit.

[monsoon]

.....

And I'm sorry, but the free market does work and has for centuries, and it is not a philosophy of "greed is good" but of people either staying on the straight and narrow and being rewarded for their good behavior with success and riches, or by people going to far and having the market correct them either through their business going under or by people no longer patronizing their shops. You dont need some government hack to do that because they will most likely foul it up.....

[gvsusean]

Dictatorships have worked for even longer. Does that mean they are desirable to the common person, well you decide. We have never had a free market in the USA as almost every business has some sort of regulation on it. Are you eating baked peanut butter products right now? I hope not, because they could very well be laced with salmonella because the peanut butter producer was operating as the "free market". What about toys with lead paint, surely those are OK, because the free market produced them. How about baby formula with melamine? The list goes on and on.

BTW, the US Constitution does not dictate capitalism, socialism, or any other type of economic philosophy to be used in the United States. Please read it if anyone thinks otherwise. The Constitution does give the US government wide powers to regulate, tax, and control business. One more time, read if if you disagree. Anytime the US government uses it's constitutional powers you no longer have a "free market".

The point is that people will throw out phrases like "free market", capitalism, socialism, etc without having taken the time to understand this is a very complex issue and throwing out simplistic sound bites, such as what the media does, is why problems don't get solved in this country. When a simplistic term is tossed out, its like drawing a line in the sand and daring anyone on either side to cross it.

I keep saying if the status quo is so good, then why do we have a topic about the crash of America's economy or why is the topic irrelevant? If anyone here can state why things are good and why government should just get out of the way, why it's ok for millions to be laid off, then please do so. But don't do us a disservice by tossing out stuff that amounts to little more than a sound bite. I would say that if that is all that can be done, then you haven't done your homework.

[jwazzz]

Dictatorships have worked for even longer. Does that mean they are desirable to the common person, well you decide. We have never had a free market in the USA as almost every business has some sort of regulation on it. Are you eating baked peanut butter products right now? I hope not, because they could very well be laced with salmonella because the peanut butter producer was operating as the "free market". What about toys with lead paint, surely those are OK, because the free market produced them. How about baby formula with melamine? The list goes on and on.

BTW, the US Constitution does not dictate capitalism, socialism, or any other type of economic philosophy to be used in the United States. Please read it if anyone thinks otherwise. The Constitution does give the US government wide powers to regulate, tax, and control business. One more time, read if if you disagree. Anytime the US government uses it's constitutional powers you no longer have a "free market".

The point is that people will throw out phrases like "free market", capitalism, socialism, etc without having taken the time to understand this is a very complex issue and throwing out simplistic sound bites, such as what the media does, is why problems don't get solved in this country. When a simplistic term is tossed out, its like drawing a line in the sand and daring anyone on either side to cross it.

I keep saying if the status quo is so good, then why do we have a topic about the crash of America's economy or why is the topic irrelevant? If anyone here can state why things are good and why government should just get out of the way, why it's ok for millions to be laid off, then please do so. But don't do us a disservice by tossing out stuff that amounts to little more than a sound bite. I would say that if that is all that can be done, then you haven't done your homework.

[GR_Urbanist]

I don't think anyone here is condoning communism. However we have seen what an unregulated free market has done in the past decade. The jobs being shipped oversees, Big Boxes crushing the mom and pops, the trade deficit, and so forth. I'm all for free markets and capitalism as they have been a great factor in forming modern day society. But these things can only work if there are reasonable regulations to level the playing field for all parties involved.

[monsoon]

^And your point is what? It all came crashing down which is why I say it was a false economy. Wars, irresponsible lending, and banking de-regulation gave us an economic bubble that hid the real rot under our economy. BTW, unemployment is not counted the same way as it was in past decades.

The platitudes of high taxes, crushing regulations and lazy people is another sound bite. It's not taxes, its spending. Spending spending spending. We have been spending $54B/month on a war in Iraq that was never even put into the federal budget and that war has been going on longer than any war in American history, and this is but one example.

Can you please let us know what crushing regulations have destroyed this economy? It's easy to say it much harder talk details. When business regulation has gotten so lax, that a peanut processor can ship peanuts that have been contaminated by rat feces, I would say you are not properly regulating your businesses. If you believe otherwise, then go out and get some peanut butter cookies.

Finally I have never known anyone that would want to live their lives on free lunches. I am not saying they don't exist, but IMO that most Americans would be glad to work a decent job for decent pay. It's hard to do that when we let our corporations value us in terms of 3rd world slave labor. It's also unacceptable.

Finally the Constitution is not a document of regulations and laws. It is a document of rights. Laws and regulations are established to protect those rights. I am wondering how many people have actually read the thing since it is often misquoted.

[monsoon]

.

Technically, the Constitution only regulates interstate trade. Trade within states is left purely to the states to regulate or not. As for taxes, the Federal government has the right to issue income tax and soc. tax

[gvsusean]

Then you either not reading my posts or you are just ignoring them. I have stated endless times what is wrong with this economy and how bad lending lead to a false economy that hid it. I also never said otherwise about the US Constitution so I am not even sure of your point.

You can choose to dismiss my posts as meaningless, but I don't really care because I can stand by my words. I've already been called a bunch of names in this topic which speaks volumes as to the depth of any counterpoints. The economy is in the toilet and it got there because of what I have posted in this topic. I am not ignoring the very simple question, "if we have been doing it right, then why did the economy collapse?" I've asked that question numerous times and the free marketeers and so forth can't and won't answer it. The results speak for themselves.

[AlexPKeaton]

I am not ignoring the very simple question, "if we have been doing it right, then why did the economy collapse?" I've asked that question numerous times and the free marketeers and so forth can't and won't answer it. The results speak for themselves.

[crinzema]

"if we have been doing it right, then why did the economy collapse?" I've asked that question numerous times and the free marketeers and so forth can't and won't answer it. The results speak for themselves.