The State of Downtown Grand Rapids Retail

[GRGyp]

On Saturday I went to Meijer Gardens with some friends. (This would be the botanical attraction that's located in GR Township.)

The seasonal display includes a train layout (someone tell me the scale; each car is 12 or 16" long), and the track is decorated with replica buildings. Interestingly, and ironically, there are no suburban lifestyle centers, no Waterfall Plaza pedestrian debacle, no beltline. Here are a few of them:

Most likely S or O scale.

S scale the cars would be around a foot long. O scale around a foot and a half.

Handy comparison chart for average car sizes:

Z - 3 to 4 inches (rare to see)

N - 5 inches (uncommon but will see occasionally)

HO- 9 inches (most popular)

S - 12 inches

O - 18 inches

G - 24+ inches (garden trains)

[GRDadof3]

Most likely S or O scale.

S scale the cars would be around a foot long. O scale around a foot and a half.

Handy comparison chart for average car sizes:

Z - 3 to 4 inches (rare to see)

N - 5 inches (uncommon but will see occasionally)

HO- 9 inches (most popular)

S - 12 inches

O - 18 inches

G - 24+ inches (garden trains)

They're actually G scale (not that I know the lingo, but that's what this link says):

http://www.meijergardens.org/calendar/event.php?id=407

I was going to say that I thought they were pretty large scale, and bigger than a typical Lionel train set.

On the subject of ice-skating, it looks like they are preparing to make room for ice skating rentals in this little corner of the art museum (which I had thought mgreven, but I hadn't seen any space that looked like it was devoted to it before today):

Folding tables, chairs and mysterious plastic tubs:

And I believe this is where the zamboni parks (?):

[Allison Slater]

Ahh, I had completely forgotten about S. And I guess the tracks just didn't look big enough in that picture to me to be G, but I guess I was wrong.

[Veloise]

Ahh, I had completely forgotten about S. And I guess the tracks just didn't look big enough in that picture to me to be G, but I guess I was wrong.

For scale, Fountain Street's tower is about 2' tall. The library is a bit more than a foot tall. Most of the train is overhead, 7' in the air.

Maybe they should replicate one of Fred's, using those natural materials.

[Veloise]

Yes but it's not lit up or nearly as easily readable as those other signs. In that picture it's really hard to even make out the SCH. It's fine if you know it's there, but it's not very good for attracting traffic inside.

This sign is now illuminated (it was when I went past 20 minutes ago). Sorry no pic.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Veloise

[Allison Slater]

I thought it always was illuminated? At least it was during the Tree Lighting outside the GRAM.

[fotoman311]

This sign is now illuminated (it was when I went past 20 minutes ago). Sorry no pic.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. It's much more visible at night than during the day. Of course, since they're currently only open for an hour after it gets dark (except Friday and Saturday nights until Christmas of course, when they're open until 8pm), that's only marginally useful.

[Parhelion]

I know I asked this in another thread, but unfortunately cannot find it now (nor did I ever receive any answers). What the heck is going on with 52 Monroe Center (vacant building between XO and Gina's)??? It's so odd- people live there upstairs! I've googled the address and think someone runs an apparel business out of one of them (called Brownstone Limited in Apt 32) and a nonprofit org in another (Tibet Michigan in Apt 2). I've also seen people (20s to 30s) entering and exiting the building. Perhaps Brownstone Limited was there before City Market? And the owner of Brownstone Limited and/or City Market also is the Tibet Michigan organizer? Mysteries, mysteries. . .

I guess the reason this drives me crazy is because didn't we confirm the whole building is for sale as commercial (all 3 or so floors?). It's such a mystery- maybe tenant leases are stalling development? Any thoughts from my fellow UPers would be much appreciated- every time I see someone going in and out of the building I think someone's looking at it to buy, but I think they just live there. It's making me a bit nutty.

ETA: Brownstone, Ltd. automatically dissolved in 2000, and last filed an annual report with the state in 1997, so it's now-defunct, I guess. City Market last filed in 1997 and automatically dissolved in 2000. While Tibet Michigan seems to be a nonprofit/advocacy organization, they have no fillings with the state. Man, 2000 was a bad year! Regardless, I'd appreciate any insight into the future of this building, it seems like it's ripe for development.

Edited December 29, 2007 by Parhelion

[radicaljoy]

<snip>And the owner of Brownstone Limited and/or City Market also is the Tibet Michigan organizer?<snip>

I'm pretty certain it is not. I believe that is primarily a residence and that the persons that live there "do" Tibet Michigan as a personal mission and have other employment. ('nuff said for privacy sake)

Edited December 29, 2007 by radicaljoy

[Parhelion]

I'm pretty certain it is not. I believe that is primarily a residence and that the persons that live there "do" Tibet Michigan as a personal mission and have other employment. ('nuff said for privacy sake)

Sorry, that was just a joke (I forget they don't come off sometimes online). I in no way meant to pry into these people's lives; I was verifying whether the businesses were active or defunct. I was just trying to figure out why this fabulous space is so vacant, and how the mysterious tenants got such a cool place to live, given that it seems that the entire building is for sale as commercial space. I'd love for that space to be put to good use.

[Veloise]

This sign is now illuminated (it was when I went past 20 minutes ago). ...

Finally snagged a pic.

It doesn't get much better than this...

...makes me wish my knee wasn't all torn up.

[Rhino6885]

Sorry, that was just a joke (I forget they don't come off sometimes online). I in no way meant to pry into these people's lives; I was verifying whether the businesses were active or defunct. I was just trying to figure out why this fabulous space is so vacant, and how the mysterious tenants got such a cool place to live, given that it seems that the entire building is for sale as commercial space. I'd love for that space to be put to good use.

As would I (and the rest of the regulars at the task force). I've tried e-mailing the listing agents on this property, but I've never gotten a response. We also e-mailed various retailers in an effort to draw them to this space. Urban Outfitters is one that comes to mind. I think Veloise is the only person who got a response from them--something to the tune of "We're not looking at Grand Rapids right now for a new store." The space is definitely large enough to draw a national retailer, which I think would HELP (not hurt) the other retailers down there. At $10 per sf, it's not too expensive either for a Monroe Center address (the old Two Choppers is $20 per sf!!).

[GRDadof3]

Finally snagged a pic.

It doesn't get much better than this...

...makes me wish my knee wasn't all torn up.

I took two of the kids ice-skating Sunday afternoon and it was PACKED! I wasn't even sure if we would be able to rent skates. A lot of families with kids, which was really nice to see. Plus, either a special event was going on at the art museum or they were just really busy. The store was even bustling full of people. It's neat to see people going to the GRAM and gawking and smiling at all of us ice-skaters. Makes the city feel alive and bustling.

[Allison Slater]

I remember seeing a line going from what I understood to be the skating rental office all the way to the middle of the park Sunday night.

[Rizzo]

Most people would say that 28th St. helped to put out Downtown retail. Ironic, that years later 28th st is decaying in the same manner. I noticed an interesting piece in The Press today that mentions how Wyoming's DDA is trying to reinvent the corridor with a new promo. In the article, Councilman Kent Vanderwood is quoted, "The question was really posed, 'Is it ever again going to be what it was?' " That's a telling comment as it relates to Downtown retail.

It seems what the elected officials really want out of a 28th st. "town center" is authenticity in a non authentic place. Am I wrong? I can never picture myself walking in a town center down 28th st for shopping.

Is there anyway that Downtown can take advantage of 28th St. and its change of luck? Should it? What if the two combined forces?

Edited January 5, 2008 by Rizzo

[Veloise]

Most people would say that 28th St. helped to put out Downtown retail. Ironic, that years later 28th st is decaying in the same manner. I noticed an interesting piece in The Press today that mentions how Wyoming's DDA is trying to reinvent the corridor with a new promo. In the article, Councilman Kent Vanderwood is quoted, "The question was really posed, 'Is it ever again going to be what it was?' " That's a telling comment as it relates to Downtown retail.

It seems what the elected officials really want out of a 28th st. "town center" is authenticity in a non authentic place. Am I wrong? I can never picture myself walking in a town center down 28th st for shopping.

Is there anyway that Downtown can take advantage of 28th St. and its change of luck? Should it? What if the two combined forces?

Still think we need our own answer to Wy Man.

[GRDadof3]

Olive's Express old spot to be replaced by a Johnny's Lunch

The first of this chain in Grand Rapids. Chris tells a little about it.

In other retail news, the DDA's new Economic Development Pilot Project, mainly focusing on downtown retail attraction and retention, has sprung into action (from the DDA):

Since October 17, forty-six retention calls have been made. Individual reports are being

written for each visit, as well as an overall report that will identify common issues needing

attention and barriers to retail success. In November, staff facilitated a meeting of real estate

brokers to discuss the retail environment from their perspective.

More news to come on this effort.

[joeDowntown]

I think the picture below shows what we were talking about with underutilized wayfinding signs. I found it comical so I had to take a picture. If you get off 196 at the Market Exit (one of the exits that directs you to Van Andel Arena), you find this sign:

It begs the following questions: Where is the Arena? Where is Downtown? Where is the train station?

Joe

[Allison Slater]

Judging by the skyscraper, downtown is ahead, and judging by the sign, Amtrak is to the right. =p

[blueradon]

Maybe that empty sign is a foreshadowing of things to come

Edited January 13, 2008 by blueradon

[Veloise]

I think the picture below shows what we were talking about with underutilized wayfinding signs. I found it comical so I had to take a picture. If you get off 196 at the Market Exit (one of the exits that directs you to Van Andel Arena), you find this sign:

...

Many on this forum have not been at the RTF meetings. Last summer we discussed the wayfinding signs (which are great...no bias here! **) and their blank back sides. As I recall, this is one such, and the flip side shows the map and buildings list.

Our ides: put those backs to good use. The hardware is up and the obverse is live, put something on the reverse.

[**the City was creating these while I was there, and one of my tasks was to fill in the map keys. Arena: A-1. 26 different maps.]

[joeDowntown]

What I am trying to say is that while many of us on this forum may know exactly where we are going, somebody getting off the Market St. exit may not. It's just an observation that by making the wayfinding signs 2-sided, it would double the effectiveness, but cost a minimal cost to direct people who are coming from the opposite direction of the sign.

Another great example is on Bridge St. going west. The western side is full of directions to key spots, but the side people would see headed east (into downtown) is completely blank (and their are so many things to point out: DeVos Place, the Government Buildings, Spectrum, the Post Office, the Art Museum, GR Ford museum (which not be apparent from the North side). Since the signs are there, why don't we use them to the fullest.

Joe

[Raildudes dad]

IHHO these signs are useless for motorists. The font is way too small for a driver to read all the info on them at 25-30 mph. Might be ok for pedestrians, but for a driver, save the money for something useful.

[GRDadof3]

EQ3 moving from Ionia Ave to Creston district

It will be sad to see that cool building vacant, but I'm actually surprised they stayed there all by themselves (only retailer in that section of Ionia) for as long as they did.

[joeDowntown]

Maybe that is why that foreboding concrete wall sits behind the buildings with no ornamentation. I know Rockford Construction had planned to bulldoze it until EQ3 came along. It is a shame to see the leave.

Joe