New England cities

[Cotuit]

...but being a solidly mid-sized metro, when we could be considered a fairly large one is still a drawback in my opinion.

No matter how you slice it, Hartford will never be a 'large' metro, and it will always be stuffed between Boston and New York. If Hartford can't overcome that, than there's a problem.

[blackstone]

i have to agree with jerry... you're reading too much into it.

airlines know that bradley is the only international airport in CT. they also know that a good portion of CT lives close enough to NYC that they'd prefer those airports over bradley, same thing for those that live close enough to warwick and teh RI border.

as cotuit said, sports teams don't overlook hartford because of the government determined metro area boundaries. they overlook hartford because the market is saturated with new york and boston teams already.

businesses are the only ones that it might matter to (population that would commute). but businesses who are relocating their current staff might not care so much about that as they would about cost of living. businesses also look at more than just that, they look at taxes and tax breaks and stuff.

honestly, the only group the boundaries matter to is the government. crime stats, population, demographics, etc.

airlines know that bradley is the only international airport in CT. they also know that a good portion of CT lives close enough to NYC that they'd prefer those airports over bradley,

i know many, many people in fairfield county that prefer flying in and out of bradley. i am sure that all of fairfield county would most prefer flying out of the white plains airport. no one really wants to deal with the 2 LI airports. let alone newark.

[MadVlad]

as cotuit said, sports teams don't overlook hartford because of the government determined metro area boundaries. they overlook hartford because the market is saturated with new york and boston teams already.

And how do we know sports teams are overloooking us? We've already had one team, and have two potential owners jockeying over who gets the next shot. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen.

[Cotuit]

And how do we know sports teams are overloooking us? We've already had one team, and have two potential owners jockeying over who gets the next shot. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen.

Well if Hartford builds them a free arena I'm sure they'll be happy to hang around until they get bored with it. Admittedly, I'm no sports fan, but I can't believe the way perfectly good cities through good money after bad in pursuit of pro-teams that are somehow supposed to make them better cities.

[runawayjim]

And how do we know sports teams are overloooking us? We've already had one team, and have two potential owners jockeying over who gets the next shot. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen.

i should have rephrased that. when they overlook hartford, it's for the reason i gave. i don't see hartford getting a baseball team, at least not MLB, but maybe a minor league team.

[HartfordTycoon]

No matter how you slice it, Hartford will never be a 'large' metro, and it will always be stuffed between Boston and New York. If Hartford can't overcome that, than there's a problem.

We can, will, and have been overcoming it since this city was founded. I think there is a chance for us to become a much larger metro than we are, depending on how sucessful Hartford becomes or if the designations shift toward a New Haven Hartford Springfield metro. We all know that the latter is not very likely, but I can easily see Hartford County alone growing if we get the region on the right track, and Metro Hartford is Hartford County, Tolland Coundy, Middlesex County. If the latter two experience significant growth so too does Hartford Metro. I know we are splitting hairs and this debate is becoming very pointless. So I think I'm done.

[MadVlad]

Can you not see how anomalous you are in that? Most people settle down and don't do a whole lot, or can't because they have kids needing to get to soccer practice, and that soccer practice is not taking place in another metropolitan area.

I am? I think maybe you just assume too much. I saw people all the time that were older than I was getting tattoos. Do you realize how many people were at the Rolling Stones concert at Renschler Field? They weren't 21 years old. I'm not sure you realize how many people do different things than you'd think, maybe they just don't talk about them. I'm not sure where you're going with the soccer practice analogy, it really isn't relevant. I don't go to New Haven to pick up the paper either, but that doesn't mean it isn't socially and economically tied with Hartford.

[runawayjim]

We can, will, and have been overcoming it since this city was founded. I think there is a chance for us to become a much larger metro than we are, depending on how sucessful Hartford becomes or if the designations shift toward a New Haven Hartford Springfield metro. We all know that the latter is not very likely, but I can easily see Hartford County alone growing if we get the region on the right track, and Metro Hartford is Hartford County, Tolland Coundy, Middlesex County. If the latter two experience significant growth so too does Hartford Metro. I know we are splitting hairs and this debate is becoming very pointless. So I think I'm done.

i don't think i'd include most of middlesex county with metro hartford, at least not the southern part of it. rmember, middlesex county goes south all the way to the shore (and actually is mainly shoreline). that part goes to new haven metro.

[MadVlad]

i should have rephrased that. when they overlook hartford, it's for the reason i gave. i don't see hartford getting a baseball team, at least not MLB, but maybe a minor league team.

I'd have to agree with you 100% there. I actually don't even see us getting a AAA team. But you also have to understand that the Red Sox and Yankees are a whole dog of a different color than say, the NHL or the NBA. Wouldn't you agree?

[Cotuit]

We can, will, and have been overcoming it since this city was founded.

I agree, which is why I'm so confused about the hand-wringing over the metro area's size, and accusations of being somehow disrespected by the census bureau. I bet if you asked most people outside New England what was the second largest city in New England, of those who could think of a city other than Boston, more than half would say Hartford. It has a large skyline and a large reputation. It's not even the largest in the state by strictly technical definitions, but it has a stature that exceeds it's size.

[runawayjim]

I'd have to agree with you 100% there. I actually don't even see us getting a AAA team. But you also have to understand that the Red Sox and Yankees are a whole dog of a different color than say, the NHL or the NBA. Wouldn't you agree?

i do agree... the yankees are in a league of their own.

i do sometimes wonder why the NBA still exists though. is it really big anywhere? it seems to me that it just serves as a place for good college stars to go because they got bogus degrees. at least in this part of the country, the NBA is nowhere near as big as college hoops.

[Cotuit]

I am? I think maybe you just assume too much. I saw people all the time that were older than I was getting tattoos. Do you realize how many people were at the Rolling Stones concert at Renschler Field? They weren't 21 years old. I'm not sure you realize how many people do different things than you'd think, maybe they just don't talk about them. I'm not sure where you're going with the soccer practice analogy, it really isn't relevant. I don't go to New Haven to pick up the paper either, but that doesn't mean it isn't socially and economically tied with Hartford.

What does any of this have to do with Metro Area definitions? Shock, there were people over 21 at the Stones concert!? How many concerts do you think those people go to in the average year? There are people over 21 who get tattoos? I had no idea!? And this has to do with metropolitan areas in what regard? The government doesn't use people's tattoo habits in determining what metro area ends where. I'm sure lots of people do lots of different things. But think about how many people there are out there, then attend any big event. Are there millions of people at the Stones concert? No, most people didn't go. People stay home, care for their kids, work on their yard. They go on one or two vacations a year, if they're lucky. They go to the movies at the mall down the street, not in a different metro area. Our regional theatres are struggling because people are home bodies with their Netflix and satellite TVs. People stay home or close to home most of the time. That's just the way it is. Some people get out a lot and do a lot of things. Most people don't. Besides work, there's really not a lot to get people out of thier local communities very often, they have what they need/want close to home.

[HartfordTycoon]

i do agree... the yankees are in a league of their own.

i do sometimes wonder why the NBA still exists though. is it really big anywhere? it seems to me that it just serves as a place for good college stars to go because they got bogus degrees. at least in this part of the country, the NBA is nowhere near as big as college hoops.

Well, I concur that here in UConn territory, College Hoops is way bigger than the NBA. I think that the reason why no one cares in New England or NY about the NBA is because the Celts and Knicks haven't done anything in like 20 years. Not that most in CT care about the Knicks or the Celts anyway. I'm talking the rest of New England and New York.

[runawayjim]

I agree, which is why I'm so confused about the hand-wringing over the metro area's size, and accusations of being somehow disrespected by the census bureau. I bet if you asked most people outside New England what was the second largest city in New England, of those who could think of a city other than Boston, more than half would say Hartford. It has a large skyline and a large reputation. It's not even the largest in the state by strictly technical definitions, but it has a stature that exceeds it's size.

i was surprised the first time i learned bridgeport was the largest city in CT. why would anyone want to live there?

i really don't understand why anyone other than the government and their statisticians would care about metro region boundaries.

[MadVlad]

What does any of this have to do with Metro Area definitions? Shock, there were people over 21 at the Stones concert!? How many concerts do you think those people go to in the average year? There are people over 21 who get tattoos? I had no idea!? And this has to do with metropolitan areas in what regard? The government doesn't use people's tattoo habits in determining what metro area ends where. I'm sure lots of people do lots of different things. But think about how many people there are out there, then attend any big event. Are there millions of people at the Stones concert? No, most people didn't go. People stay home, care for their kids, work on their yard. They go on one or two vacations a year, if they're lucky. They go to the movies at the mall down the street, not in a different metro area. Our regional theatres are struggling because people are home bodies with their Netflix and satellite TVs. People stay home or close to home most of the time. That's just the way it is. Some people get out a lot and do a lot of things. Most people don't. Besides work, there's really not a lot to get people out of thier local communities very often, they have what they need/want close to home.

I used tattoos and music as an example of people that will travel in this specific area to do certain things, and some of that area isn't even considered in the same metro. that was the point I was trying to illustrate.

I also think you are discounting the younger generation (of which I am not a part). It just seems like you don't want to count the actions of people that don't fit into what you consider "most people". I really do think that more people get out and around. If we differ in opinion, then that's ok by me...

[MadVlad]

i was surprised the first time i learned bridgeport was the largest city in CT. why would anyone want to live there?

Hartford' working on that Having worked in that area for the better part of 3 years, I would have to agree. I will say though, that Bridgeport isn't quite the hole that I always assumed it was. Don't get me wrong, there are still large parts that really suck, but it wasn't the distater I imagined. I think Bridgeport is right now where Hartford could have been if we didn't have our business powerhouses. The whole time I worked there, they had "Downtown redevelopment signs on a ton of buildings downtown, but I never once saw anything happen with them. I'm betting 8 months later they still haven't. Bridgeport is truly positioned to be a great city, if only they could get their heads out of their asses.

Oh, and as an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Stamford is our largest city by, say, 2015. They have what the other cities don't ..... land. Stamford's footprint is pretty big, especially compared to cities like Bridgeport, Hartford, and Providence. The only limiting factor that I see are the people in Northern Stamford exerting their willpower and trying to limit what Stamford does.

[runawayjim]

Hartford' working on that Having worked in that area for the better part of 3 years, I would have to agree. I will say though, that Bridgeport isn't quite the hole that I always assumed it was. Don't get me wrong, there are still large parts that really suck, but it wasn't the distater I imagined. I think Bridgeport is right now where Hartford could have been if we didn't have our business powerhouses. The whole time I worked there, they had "Downtown redevelopment signs on a ton of buildings downtown, but I never once saw anything happen with them. I'm betting 8 months later they still haven't. Bridgeport is truly positioned to be a great city, if only they could get their heads out of their asses.

Oh, and as an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Stamford is our largest city by, say, 2015. They have what the other cities don't ..... land. Stamford's footprint is pretty big, especially compared to cities like Bridgeport, Hartford, and Providence. The only limiting factor that I see are the people in Northern Stamford exerting their willpower and trying to limit what Stamford does.

i look at stamford as more a suburb than a city. much like the rest of fairfield county west of bridgeport. they're either a suburb of new york or bridgeport. and that's the problem that bridgeport is going to face (and probably is facing). it's more a suburb of new york than it's own city since it does fall in NYC metro (even with the actual government boundaries). downtown is neat, but there's not much going on. it has a great park in seaside park, but at night, forget about it. there are very few areas of the city that i would consider truly safe.

back to stamford... northern stamford residents probably have a bit of land on their property. there's not much north of the downtown area. even the eastern side has a few office buildings and then suburban neighborhoods. there is nothing urban about stamford other than the look of downtown. and it suffers the same issue bridgeport does... NYC metro.

[MadVlad]

Yeah, but if you look, Stamford is trying to do some things in their own right, despite being so close to NYC. I actually think they use that as a positive, rather than a negative, which is what Hartford does from time to time, and should do much more often. They have as many downtown condos going in as anyone, there just aren't many (if any) Stamford people around here to talk about it. It is a nice city, it's got some nice dance clubs and some real good restaurants. It really doesn't suffer like the rest of the Connecticut cities, which isn't surprising considering the wealth that resides there.

[blackstone]

i look at stamford as more a suburb than a city. much like the rest of fairfield county west of bridgeport. they're either a suburb of new york or bridgeport. and that's the problem that bridgeport is going to face (and probably is facing). it's more a suburb of new york than it's own city since it does fall in NYC metro (even with the actual government boundaries). downtown is neat, but there's not much going on. it has a great park in seaside park, but at night, forget about it. there are very few areas of the city that i would consider truly safe.

back to stamford... northern stamford residents probably have a bit of land on their property. there's not much north of the downtown area. even the eastern side has a few office buildings and then suburban neighborhoods. there is nothing urban about stamford other than the look of downtown. and it suffers the same issue bridgeport does... NYC metro.

suffer? could you just maybe have some ax to grind over nyc? you know. the one i have unfortunately had to suffer hearing from sf to boston/providence forever. you think the people that live in stamford or bridgeport believe they are suffering over nyc? they don't. i have never heard anyone complain in fairfield county about being too close to nyc. so why are you saying it? sounds like nyc envy. bye jim.

[Cotuit]

suffer? could you just maybe have some ax to grind over nyc? you know. the one i have unfortunately had to suffer hearing from sf to boston/providence forever. you think the people that live in stamford or bridgeport believe they are suffering over nyc? they don't. i have never heard anyone complain in fairfield county about being too close to nyc. so why are you saying it? sounds like nyc envy. bye jim.

Just like the rest of this discussion, the average man/woman on the street doesn't care about any of this. No, no one in Bridgeport or Stamford is 'suffering' do to their proximity to New York. However, nationally, the cities will forever be in the shadow of New York. That doesn't mean they aren't or can't someday be perfectly fine, even wonderful places to live and work. Just that they'll never really attain any national recognition the way similar sized cities that aren't in such proximity to a larger neighbour might. Think of how many people have heard of Burlington, Vermont and have some sort of opinion about vs. the people who might know that there are some small cities scattered along the Connecticut coast near New York.

[runawayjim]

suffer? could you just maybe have some ax to grind over nyc? you know. the one i have unfortunately had to suffer hearing from sf to boston/providence forever. you think the people that live in stamford or bridgeport believe they are suffering over nyc? they don't. i have never heard anyone complain in fairfield county about being too close to nyc. so why are you saying it? sounds like nyc envy. bye jim.

whoa whoa whoa... i, personally, cannot stand boston or anything about it (except harpoon and sam adams). i don't think stamford or bridgeport think they're suffering over nyc. but they're gonna have a harder time than say hartford or providence building their own name for themselves because of their proximity to nyc.

i love new york, i'll take it over boston any day. i also love providence, but there's no nyc envy here. but i also see that not being so close to nyc can help a city really become big on it's own (big as in make a name for itself). boston's small enough and providence is far enough away from it that providence doesn't really have that problem.

these cities do need to embrace their proximity to NYC and use it to their benefit. bridgeport started it, but with ganim going to prison, it's not really doing as well as it had been about 5-7 years ago. stamford has embraced it and it is thriving because of that. however, stamford is fairly spread out, and not as much a city once you leave the downtown area. it's a very suburban city.

[MadVlad]

In my opinion, Stamford already has a decent reputation, and they certainly don't suffer from their proximity to NYC. They have a large Corporate presence, probably only behind Boston and Hartford in New England, and they have a wealth of money and people. Their city is clean, well run, and best of all, SAFE. I really don't think they want to escape from NYC's shadow, I think they want to stay in it due to all the success it reaps them.

[runawayjim]

In my opinion, Stamford already has a decent reputation, and they certainly don't suffer from their proximity to NYC. They have a large Corporate presence, probably only behind Boston and Hartford in New England, and they have a wealth of money and people. Their city is clean, well run, and best of all, SAFE. I really don't think they want to escape from NYC's shadow, I think they want to stay in it due to all the success it reaps them.

everyone is misunderstanding me...

stamford only has that corporate presence because of their proximity to NYC. they don't want to escape the shadow, but in order to become more than just a large suburb of NYC that happens to have a nice corporate presence, they need to make their identity and do something to keep people from hopping on the short train ride to NYC. being a city with a name takes more than just a corporate presence. again, like cotuit said... do you hear anyone talking about stamford as its own city or bridgeport? they're over-shadowed by new york and just known as the small CT cities near new york (or collectively known as fairfield county).

[HartfordTycoon]

everyone is misunderstanding me...

stamford only has that corporate presence because of their proximity to NYC. they don't want to escape the shadow, but in order to become more than just a large suburb of NYC that happens to have a nice corporate presence, they need to make their identity and do something to keep people from hopping on the short train ride to NYC. being a city with a name takes more than just a corporate presence. again, like cotuit said... do you hear anyone talking about stamford as its own city or bridgeport? they're over-shadowed by new york and just known as the small CT cities near new york (or collectively known as fairfield county).

But I think what everyone else is saying is that Stamford, unlike Hartford and Providence, is not sitting around trying to figure out how to go national. They don't care. They have a good thing going on and could care less if people from outside of the NYC Tri State or New England never heard of them.

[Baines]

But I think what everyone else is saying is that Stamford, unlike Hartford and Providence, is not sitting around trying to figure out how to go national. They don't care. They have a good thing going on and could care less if people from outside of the NYC Tri State or New England never heard of them.

Agree; except that Providence is "national". With the Patriots, TV/movies (a host of movies, Providence, The Brotherhood, Family Guy, etc), it's "rennaisance" reputation, culinary arts (J&W, etc), historical features, it is a true "destination. However, it is "trying to figure out" how to sustain and expand it...a major challenge for NE's second largest city.

Tough for any big-but not very big-northeastern city/metro. It is so much easier and less expensive for southern cities due to climate, labor, brick and mortar, geography, cost of living, infrastructure, etc.