Grand Rapids Nude Dancing Ban....For? or Against?

[tamias6]

I hope we never loose our sensitivity for 5 reasons, the least of which is the impact on the future of downtown. Maybe New York has enough vitality to overcome a sleezy business every block or two, but GR does not have that energy. Bring in the strip joints and the great majority of the market will avoid downtown as a result.

My 4 much more important reasons to oppose strip joints are named Kathie, Jennie, Lindsey and Lisa.

I was going to say about the same thing but you beat me to the punch.

[joeDowntown]

If you follow that thought process then I would believe the same thought process would apply to the burbs yet there is more commercial development happening around Sensations than in years past. As I said, adult venues already have very limited places that are suitable to open a business. Market is not Monroe Center.

Joe

I hope we never loose our sensitivity for 5 reasons, the least of which is the impact on the future of downtown. Maybe New York has enough vitality to overcome a sleezy business every block or two, but GR does not have that energy. Bring in the strip joints and the great majority of the market will avoid downtown as a result.

My 4 much more important reasons to oppose strip joints are named Kathie, Jennie, Lindsey and Lisa.

[tamias6]

True Market Ave is not Monroe Center, but Grand Rapids would like to see that area become just as vibrant. A strip joint in that area would do a pretty darn good job of preventing that from happening.

[Allison Slater]

Munroe

GAH!

[tamias6]

GAH!

Maroonraoeea.

Could be worst.

But I was a nice guy and edited my post.

[jwazzz]

Civitas and GRDad - Stay home, respect your wives and leave the parking spaces open for those who want to go to the nude clubs. It's like TV - if you don't like it, don't watch it but don't think you have the right to tell others what they can watch.

[joeDowntown]

I'd like to see statistics to back that up. Sure, Strip Clubs are usually in pretty sh*tty neighborhoods, but is that because of the strip club, or did the strip club move to the location because it was the easiest way to open shop (ie. no Nimby's)?

I'm not suggesting we put a strip club in the J.W. but London found a spot that fit all the criteria for the city and the city decided to change the rules.

And as far as impeding development, if I'm not mistaken London was one of the first to say he'd move for the city's favorite snake oil salesman.

Joe

True Market Ave is not Monroe Center, but Grand Rapids would like to see that area become just as vibrant. A strip joint in that area would do a pretty darn good job of preventing that from happening.

[GRDadof3]

Civitas and GRDad - Stay home, respect your wives and leave the parking spaces open for those who want to go to the nude clubs. It's like TV - if you don't like it, don't watch it but don't think you have the right to tell others what they can watch.

Are you talking to me jwazzz? I haven't posted an opinion in this thread in over a month. I don't have anything against strip clubs, except where they are placed. They do affect residential property values (that can easily be proven), so obviously the further from a residential area the better.

[gvsusean]

Are you talking to me jwazzz? I haven't posted an opinion in this thread in over a month. I don't have anything against strip clubs, except where they are placed. They do affect residential property values (that can easily be proven), so obviously the further from a residential area the better.

fine bring the chicks over to my house, ill take care of'em

[tamias6]

There's a strip joint in the Westside called "Showgirls" located on Lake Michigan drive. The area surrounding it is in the dumps. I bet if that establishment were to go into chapter 11, the surrounding area would find it very easy in picking it self up by the boot straps and join in the rest of the core's revival.

[zenstyle]

"I hope the city gets spanked HARD on this lawsuit."

Heh, heh-heh...he said "spanked!"

I notice the protection of sons from the detriment of strip clubs isn't an issue in this thread.

[gvsusean]

There's a strip joint in the Westside called "Showgirls" located on Lake Michigan drive. The area surrounding it is in the dumps. I bet if that establishment were to go into chapter 11, the surrounding area would find it very easy in picking it self up by the boot straps and join in the rest of the core's revival.

i believe its called parkway tropics... I know the owner lmao, its a sh*t hole

[DwntwnGeo]

There's a strip joint in the Westside called "Showgirls" located on Lake Michigan drive. The area surrounding it is in the dumps. I bet if that establishment were to go into chapter 11, the surrounding area would find it very easy in picking it self up by the boot straps and join in the rest of the core's revival.

Can you or anyone, provide an example of a town or city that had a strip club and the year it moved out of town or closed it doors the area turned into a center of activity one year later? Or can you provide me an example of a busy city center where a strip club moved in and the area turned dead 12 months later?

[DwntwnGeo]

My 4 much more important reasons to oppose strip joints are named Kathie, Jennie, Lindsey and Lisa.

So we don't have any strip clubs in GR or Michigan. You have kept the "women" in your life safe. What happens when they leave the city or state? What happens the first time they come across one, not knowing anything about them? Are you always going to be around the "protect" them from all the aweful places in the world? Will you be by their side their whole lives?

My point is what does it hurt to have them around? They dont' have to be on Monroe Center or ever street corner. If the free market has the demand for it, what does it hurt? If there is one or more in town, what does it hurt to "talk" to your kids about them. Let them know about them. Express your concerns about why they shouldn't go there as a parent should. I would rather talk to my kids and explain to them about the reasons why I wouldn't like them there as to not having any of them around and when I am not around, having them "experiment" or try it out when I am not around.

Are you willing to talk to your children about places like this, or are you willing to let them find out on their own? Whether we have one in GR or Chicago, your children will be exposed to one at some point in their lives. We tell parents to talk to their kids about sex and drugs before they find out from their peers, why coudn't parents talk to their children about these clubs?

[GRDadof3]

Can you or anyone, provide an example of a town or city that had a strip club and the year it moved out of town or closed it doors the area turned into a center of activity one year later? Or can you provide me an example of a busy city center where a strip club moved in and the area turned dead 12 months later?

Times Square, NYC.

[civitas]

Times Square, NYC.

Times Square

"Businesses needed something to draw people in and Times Square's era of vice was born. It was predominantly during the 1960's and 1970's that live nude shows, erotic bookstores, and X-rated movie houses occupied the area. By 1975 Times Square was described as a 'sinkhole' by many newspapers. With the new commerce came a sky-rocketing crime rate that turned Times Square into one of the most dangerous places in the city. Tourists stayed away. In the 1980's, businesses and public officials began to band together to change the square's reputation. With a combination of new legislation and building condemnation, Times Square began to reverse its decline. By 1993 there were 36 adult establishments, down from a high of 140 in the late 1970's."

[DwntwnGeo]

Times Square

" By 1993 there were 36 adult establishments, down from a high of 140 in the late 1970's."

Nice example and Times Square has turned itself around. The last quote though proves that a vibrant area can co-exist with such establishments?

[tamias6]

Nice example and Times Square has turned itself around. The last quote though proves that a vibrant area can co-exist with such establishments?

Because the fact that there is less of them now than back then is one important factor in the turn around. From the way I see it, it dosen't matter anyone here is for or against a nuddy bar. The fact is that the mainstream, the ones with money to spend, generally don't want to be near these places. That in mind if I were a bussines owner or a homeowner I would not want to be anywhere near a nudy bar. I saw a good family resturant close its doors just after the Velvet Touch moved in next to it. To illustrate my point. This goes to everybody here. Let's say you are a home owner of a great house. You have a nice wife / husband and most importantly two wonderful kids. Let's not forget Rover and Felix. You pickup the newspaper or log on to UP and find out that a nuddy bar is wanting to move next door to your nice home. What would you do? ....or..... You are the founder and owner of a succesful small bussines and image and professionalism are everything when it comes to success and you find out that a nuddy bar is going to move next door to your company. What would you do?

[DwntwnGeo]

Because the fact that there is less of them now than back then is one important factor in the turn around. From the way I see it, it dosen't matter anyone here is for or against a nuddy bar. The fact is that the mainstream, the ones with money to spend, generally don't want to be near these places. That in mind if I were a bussines owner or a homeowner I would not want to be anywhere near a nudy bar. I saw a good family resturant close its doors just after the Velvet Touch moved in next to it. To illustrate my point. This goes to everybody here. Let's say you are a home owner of a great house. You have a nice wife / husband and most importantly two wonderful kids. Let's not forget Rover and Felix. You pickup the newspaper or log on to UP and find out that a nuddy bar is wanting to move next door to your nice home. What would you do? ....or..... You are the founder and owner of a succesful small bussines and image and professionalism are everything when it comes to success and you find out that a nuddy bar is going to move next door to your company. What would you do?

Another fact is that area of town isn't zone residential it is light industrial, which was done by the city. I am not up on all my city laws or anything, but isn't there zoning that says that you cannot build a strip club next in resdidential zoning? Doesn't the law say that Mr. London can build in Light Industrial? If there are so many people in the community that doesn't want strip clubs in light Industrial, than shouldn't we vote to have the law changed? Was there anyone who complained when the bought the land?

[Rizzo]

Right . .but the logic behind the previous argument was that a person should be free to do whatever they want as long as it "doesn't hurt anyone else" . . . .

it all boils down to morality . . . do you really want your husband/boyfriend in there lusting after other women? (and yes, I know there are many avenues for that besides a strip club) You men could not possibly understand that . . .once an idea gets into your head it can become like an obsession . . .just like any vice . .some people can handle it and some cannot. And if you think that all that goes on at those places is just "watching" dances you are very naive. Nuff said . . . this all got started b/c I simply made the comment that we don't need a club b/c "evey big city has one" . . .kind of snow balled from there . . . . .I'll shut up now before anyone else's feathers get ruffled cause they wanna watch the strippers . . .

I'm assuming you're a woman... and I understand you, it boils down to morality. The morality of despicable acts and the morality of protecting the right of free association and speech. As time goes on and I experience more "new" ideas I find myself more conservative. I find myself easily insulted and quick to know exactly what is going on. My disgust for this subject stems from my upbringing around very strong women.

[tamias6]

Another fact is that area of town isn't zone residential it is light industrial, which was done by the city. I am not up on all my city laws or anything, but isn't there zoning that says that you cannot build a strip club next in resdidential zoning? Doesn't the law say that Mr. London can build in Light Industrial? If there are so many people in the community that doesn't want strip clubs in light Industrial, than shouldn't we vote to have the law changed? Was there anyone who complained when the bought the land?

Yes that area is zone light industrial.....for now. But the city is showing signs of wanting to do somthing more vibrant with that whole area. The sixteen acre city owned land by the river (hate to use that as an example) and the bus station, are two examples that GR wants more out of that area than mere light industrial. Also the ballet club is wanting to build an auditorium down there as well. Lastly a developer is proposing some residental units in that area too. The nuddy bar going in there will only throw a monkey wrench into that area's potential.

Thus I'm remaining on the city's side on this issue.

[DwntwnGeo]

Yes that area is zone light industrial.....for now. But the city is showing signs of wanting to do somthing more vibrant with that whole area. The sixteen acre city owned land by the river (hate to use that as an example) and the bus station, are two examples that GR wants more out of that area than mere light industrial. Also the ballet club is wanting to build an auditorium down there as well. Lastly a developer is proposing some residental units in that area too. The nuddy bar going in there will only throw a monkey wrench into that area's potential.

Thus I'm remaining on the city's side on this issue.

Is this another sign that the city is behind the times? If they wanted this to become such a residential/living/public center, should they have changed the zoning already to something else so that Mark London wouldn't have bought. Did he only buy it less than two years ago or so. Did the city know what his plans were when he bought it? Wouldn't Mr. London have done some due dilegence before buying something?

What has Mr. London done wrong here? He bought a piece of property for a strip club in a section of town that was zoned to allow his establishment there. Now the city wants to change their minds? Does this place have any foresight to what they want and where they want it?

As far as the River property..... as much as I would like it to happen.... They city hasn't shown any real leadership in this (IMO) They don't seem to like any of the proposals, they said they would put out a RFP process almost two months ago and we haven't seen or heard a thing.....

Maybe I am missing something?

[GRobserver]

So we don't have any strip clubs in GR or Michigan. You have kept the "women" in your life safe. What happens when they leave the city or state? What happens the first time they come across one, not knowing anything about them? Are you always going to be around the "protect" them from all the aweful places in the world? Will you be by their side their whole lives?

My point is what does it hurt to have them around? They dont' have to be on Monroe Center or ever street corner. If the free market has the demand for it, what does it hurt? If there is one or more in town, what does it hurt to "talk" to your kids about them. Let them know about them. Express your concerns about why they shouldn't go there as a parent should. I would rather talk to my kids and explain to them about the reasons why I wouldn't like them there as to not having any of them around and when I am not around, having them "experiment" or try it out when I am not around.

Are you willing to talk to your children about places like this, or are you willing to let them find out on their own? Whether we have one in GR or Chicago, your children will be exposed to one at some point in their lives. We tell parents to talk to their kids about sex and drugs before they find out from their peers, why coudn't parents talk to their children about these clubs?

I share these feelings.

Removing all of life's temptations is not the way to keep your children safe and your wife/husband from cheating on you.

That's where good parenting and a strong marriage come into play.

[civitas]

I share these feelings.

Removing all of life's temptations is not the way to keep your children/wife safe.

That's where good parenting and a strong marriage come into play.

A strip club is not a temptation for my wife or daughters.

I do talk to my daughters about such places, but the conversation isn't as much about the place as the people who go there. A strong marriage is based on love, commitment, sexual fidelity, honesty, self-control, respect, etc. Does a man who pays to watch naked girls have those virtues? How many wives and girlfriends of strip club patrons know that their man is paying for visual sex? Would they be happy if they knew?

You're right that strong marriages are very important and that is my prayer for my daughters. It seems to me that casual sex disrespects women in general, cheapens attitudes about sexual fidelity and can be disastrous to a marriage.

[DwntwnGeo]

A strip club is not a temptation for my wife or daughters.

I do talk to my daughters about such places, but the conversation isn't as much about the place as the people who go there. A strong marriage is based on love, commitment, sexual fidelity, honesty, self-control, respect, etc. Does a man who pays to watch naked girls have those virtues? How many wives and girlfriends of strip club patrons know that their man is paying for visual sex? Would they be happy if they knew?

You're right that strong marriages are very important and that is my prayer for my daughters. It seems to me that casual sex disrespects women in general, cheapens attitudes about sexual fidelity and can be disastrous to a marriage.

So you are saying:

1) only married guys go to these establishments? what about single guys that choose to go?

2) only marrried or attached girls are the ones doing the dancing?

Again these places are voluntary to visit and also to work there. I have never seen or heard anyone that was "forced" to do either.

It isn't up to you or I to decided the virtues of others, is it? If someone chooses to work or visit there, than it is up to them to deal with the consequences of their actions.