Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[Rizzo]

Use the feds and this will stay a vision .....

.... sales tax.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Rizzo

[AlexPKeaton]

FWIW, I don't think going out of the way to hit that bit of Division is very worthwhile. Anything that serves Medical Mile needs to be a true east-west route. It needs to reach Spectrum's parking lots on Michigan past Fuller (and conveniently, my house ). Eventually there could be another north-south line on Division, but Monroe is really where all the action is on a north-south alignment right now.

[wingbert]

FWIW, I don't think going out of the way to hit that bit of Division is very worthwhile. Anything that serves Medical Mile needs to be a true east-west route. It needs to reach Spectrum's parking lots on Michigan past Fuller (and conveniently, my house ). Eventually there could be another north-south line on Division, but Monroe is really where all the action is on a north-south alignment right now.

Is it safe to assume that a choice needed to be made between the primary riders being downtown workers or the visitor/convention crowd? By linking hotels up and down Monroe to the convention center and entertainment areas like the Bob and the arena it would appear that the visitor/convention crowd won out (not that some downtown workers won't also benefit). This isn't a bad thing and from a PR standpoint it will look good to people who visit our fair city. Who knows, perhaps this could finally spur development of one of downtown's most egregious examples of neglect - The Rowe Hotel/Olds Manor. With a convenient streetcar link to parking up and down Monroe, that argument against rehabilitation can be mitigated.

[Raildudes dad]

Use the feds and this will stay a vision .....

.... sales tax.

TIF, Tax Increment Financing. If this stuff generates all the new development they are claiming, it should pay for itself. Forget the Feds, let's git er done. Plus no Feds = no red tape, stupid regulations & rules, no Davis Bacon wage requirements etc. Use a local design firm, keep the dollars here.

[GRDadof3]

Is it safe to assume that a choice needed to be made between the primary riders being downtown workers or the visitor/convention crowd? By linking hotels up and down Monroe to the convention center and entertainment areas like the Bob and the arena it would appear that the visitor/convention crowd won out (not that some downtown workers won't also benefit). This isn't a bad thing and from a PR standpoint it will look good to people who visit our fair city. Who knows, perhaps this could finally spur development of one of downtown's most egregious examples of neglect - The Rowe Hotel/Olds Manor. With a convenient streetcar link to parking up and down Monroe, that argument against rehabilitation can be mitigated.

Fair enough. If they're just trying to serve visitors to downtown to begin with, then this Monroe route does that in some ways. But it's betting a lot on future development to come, IMO.

[Rizzo]

TIF, Tax Increment Financing. If this stuff generates all the new development they are claiming, it should pay for itself. Forget the Feds, let's git er done. Plus no Feds = no red tape, stupid regulations & rules, no Davis Bacon wage requirements etc. Use a local design firm, keep the dollars here.

Forget giving you a cookie, you get the whole box!

[snoogit]

Saw a poll on this the other day at WOOD about willingness to use mass transit, and these were the results:

Are you willing to use mass transit and conserve more to lower your energy usage and cost?

Yes, I am: 21.3%

No, I'm not: 37.2%

I'm willing, just haven't done it: 21.3%

Not yet, anyway: 20.2%

So basically it boils down to

Yes: 42.6%

No: 57.4%

There's a lot of work to be done yet.

[gvsusean]

Saw a poll on this the other day at WOOD about willingness to use mass transit, and these were the results:

Are you willing to use mass transit and conserve more to lower your energy usage and cost?

Yes, I am: 21.3%

No, I'm not: 37.2%

I'm willing, just haven't done it: 21.3%

Not yet, anyway: 20.2%

So basically it boils down to

Yes: 42.6%

No: 57.4%

There's a lot of work to be done yet.

to be fair though if that sample is representative of the market as a whole then that means there are approximately 700,000 people who are willing to use mass transit (I'm assuming on a regular basis)

[Rizzo]

No good, too much reading into a bad poll.

If you really wanted to, you could say that 62.8% are favorable to transit based on a certain circumstance. The rest, 37.2%, will not use transit whatsoever to conserve.

FYI, most of this talk of regional transit in West Michigan is coming from citizens in urban and suburban Ottawa county. There is work to be done, but its at the top... not the bottom.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Rizzo

[metrogrkid]

TIF, Tax Increment Financing. If this stuff generates all the new development they are claiming, it should pay for itself. Forget the Feds, let's git er done. Plus no Feds = no red tape, stupid regulations & rules, no Davis Bacon wage requirements etc. Use a local design firm, keep the dollars here.

That is EXACTLY why The Rapid/ITP is not going after FTA funding on the Market/Monroe streetrail project. Why would they when the Market/Monroe route stands to deliver conventioneers/tourists/circulating workers/bar-hopping students/residents (WITH MONEY THEY INTEND TO FREELY GIVE THOSE VENUES' STAKEHOLDERS) directly or nearly directly into 1] significant existing destinations (i.e. - Founder's Brewery, Hopson Flats, VanAndel Arena, The BOB, Plaza Towers, Rosa Parks Circle, Amway Grand Plaza Hotel, DeVos Place, Calder Plaza and Icon on Bond) and 2] into new developments being formulated by Peter Secchia, Dan DeVos and Richard DeVos for the route's south-end and by the Joes Moch and the Monroe North Hotel folks on the route's north-end? This is a deal where these collective stakeholders will be asked to pay ONCE for a streetrail system that will provide perpetual economic benefit to them. Done that way, you arrive at the sentiment of 'Raildudes dad': "no Feds = no red tape, stupid regulations & rules, no Davis Bacon wage requirements etc.".

The reams of examples of transit-oriented development that followed streetrail in Portland, Denver, Tacoma and the other cities with new streetrail combined with our "perfect storm" of savvy philanthropic developers, their interest in transit as a development tool and an alignment that has a highly developed middle and highly developable end sections is just too sweet. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, (etc.) streetrail lines will easily follow from something as high-profile as the Market/Monroe corridor will be.

However and again . . . . " Small bits and pieces on the journey to world-class transit for new transit towns like us, grasshoppers. Small bits and pieces . . . ."

Edited July 16, 2008 by metrogrkid

[dragt]

That's all fine and good, but I'm not talking about the BRT. I'm talking about the current streetcar route. And I'm not talking about 9 miles of light rail. I'm talking about maybe a mile tops (and a mile that would already be covered on Monroe Avenue, just shifted over 4 streets), that would greatly increase the VALUE of the streetcar. Right now, it doesn't touch any of the major employment centers or campuses downtown. You're just handing this streetcar over to the anti-transit crowd on a silver platter (and for good reason). I've even heard pro-transit people question the proposed route. And apparently some of the ITP board feels the same.

I totally hear what you're saying, I'd much rather have a route that swung over in that directions...BUT:

After reading the whole study it is clear that they did consider several other options including Ottawa/Ionia. That option was no good due to the "lean" crossing michigan hill. As for division, they didn't mention it directly but they did mention that some of the 131 overpasses blocked potential east west routes (in other words - not enough clearance). Taking division under michigan would likely present the same issue. I don't have the actual clearance numbers but that is not the tallest underpass I've ever seen by a longshot...

Just a thought.

[Rizzo]

It's interesting that The Press editorialized support for a Democrat in suburban Ottawa County that has "good ideas" on transit such as expanding it to include light rail. This marks a pattern by The Press on light rail.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

It's interesting that The Press editorialized support for a Democrat in suburban Ottawa County that has "good ideas" on transit such as expanding it to include light rail. This marks a pattern by The Press on light rail.

That is very interesting. I think the Press has always reflected the views of its readership, which is slowly beginning to come around on these issues. It's hard to be a dissenter when the Chamber of Commerce, local economic development agencies and many local business leaders are slowly beginning to see the benefits of providing the populace with multiple choices of transit (not just car or bus). Let's hope they offer a "balanced" approach when it comes time for the BRT and streetcar to ramp up. Even better if they came out in support of both (although that's a lot to wish for).

It's a lot better than the situation in Columbus, OH, where even a member of their own transit board (COTA) stated recently "We already have a fabulous rapid transit system - it's called the freeway!" (originally flagged on The Overhead Wire blog)

[d8alterego]

Michigan needs some drastic changes to its transportation plan because this article in MLive highlights some disturbing numbers.

"Michigan needs to double its spending on roads and bridges or many will keep deteriorating and become unsafe, says a report to a task force studying how to pay for transportation projects without raising the state's gasoline tax."

"[The report] says the cost of fuel, trucks and asphalt is soaring while revenues are declining after staying stagnant for nearly a decade. Part of the problem is motorists are buying less gas, reducing the amount of money the state collects from the gas tax."

A. I hope this doesn't discourage politicians from investing in mass transit (GR and Detroit's transit projects).

B. This exemplifies why building more roads and highways is a bad policy direction. MDOT needs to be reorganized.

[NorthCoast]

High fuel costs affecting local mass transit budget...

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8712152

[metrogrkid]

High fuel costs affecting local mass transit budget...

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8712152

I bet The Rapid's Board won't disagree again with Mayor Heartwell the next time he suggests ordering additional HYBRID busses (at an ITP Board meeting earlier this year, Heartwell led a tiny minority that advocated for a significant amount of hybrid busses to replace the gas-only models that were coming due for replacement).

PLACE THE DISSENTING RAPID BOARD MEMBERS HERE FOR A PICTURE--> x Thank You.

[Raildudes dad]

I bet The Rapid's Board won't disagree again with Mayor Heartwell the next time he suggests ordering additional HYBRID busses (at an ITP Board meeting earlier this year, Heartwell led a tiny minority that advocated for a significant amount of hybrid busses to replace the gas-only models that were coming due for replacement)

Hope you were only quoting the tv media story. I'd bet my paycheck there's not a "gas" burner in the fleets. Diesel burners, yes, gasoline fueled no.

[LA Dave]

Hope you were only quoting the tv media story. I'd bet my paycheck there's not a "gas" burner in the fleets. Diesel burners, yes, gasoline fueled no.

Yeah, Dad, I think the last gasoline burner left that fleet in the 1950s. Do you remember when the buses had manual transmissions? And were painted green and yellow?

[Raildudes dad]

Yeah, Dad, I think the last gasoline burner left that fleet in the 1950s. Do you remember when the buses had manual transmissions? And were painted green and yellow?

Yup, rode downtown with my mother 1955 - early 60's on both the old rattlie clunkers and occasionally if we were lucky, on the new GM coaches, AC'd if IIRC. Eastern / College Route - #9? IIRC, the old ones were green with yellow trim and the new ones were more cream with a green stripe. In high school, my dad drove 3 of us to Central Christian and I took the Franklin bus downtown and transferred to the Eastern / College bus to Emerald & Spencer. Did that until my buddy bought a 1954 Chevy to get us to school. Ah, you have me going down memory lane again

[highwayguy]

In today's Grand Rapids Press:

Backers of mass transit working to get streetcars they desire

Cost of streetcars may be less in Grand Rapids

Details of a Grand Rapids streetcar line

[GRDadof3]

In today's Grand Rapids Press:

Backers of mass transit working to get streetcars they desire

Cost of streetcars may be less in Grand Rapids

Details of a Grand Rapids streetcar line

Thanks Lee. I read the articles in the hard copy this morning (front page below the fold). They got in some good points about mass transit such as streetcars, including how development patterns along mass transit is similar to developments along M-6 (for instance), and that all transportation systems are "subsidized" by taxpayers. Much like the points we've made here in the same regard.

[trongrr]

Thanks Lee. I read the articles in the hard copy this morning (front page below the fold). They got in some good points about mass transit such as streetcars, including how development patterns along mass transit is similar to developments along M-6 (for instance), and that all transportation systems are "subsidized" by taxpayers. Much like the points we've made here in the same regard.

As I read the article this morning, I wondered why the route is a 3 MI north/south route versus a 3+ mile east/west route.

IANAUP (I am not an urban planner) - but would it not make sense to run this thing up Michigan out to the Beltline and west out Bridge?

I just think of walking up Michigan St hill (ugh!), being able to go from De Vos Place to 2 toursity places (Zoo and FMG), Spectrum folks can take this thing to their satellite lot at Plymouth/Michigan, it hits a couple of DASH lots and would skirt the north side of GVSU.

OTOH - When I looked at the current route, I thought immediately of another DASH route, versus spending 75 Million on a streetcar.

Thoughts?

Edited July 27, 2008 by trongrr

[Allison Slater]

The thing about a Michigan Hill route from what I understand is that it will be very costly. The steep slope coupled with the bridge over Division would cost a lot of money.. more than what is worth experimenting with. If the streetcar is successful, I'm sure a Michigan Hill route could be in the future, but for now I don't think it is financially feasible.

[Rizzo]

As I read the article this morning, I wondered why the route is a 3 MI north/south route versus a 3+ mile east/west route.

IANAUP (I am not an urban planner) - but would it not make sense to run this thing up Michigan out to the Beltline and west out Bridge?

I just think of walking up Michigan St hill (ugh!), being able to go from De Vos Place to 2 toursity places (Zoo and FMG), Spectrum folks can take this thing to their satellite lot at Plymouth/Michigan, it hits a couple of DASH lots and would skirt the north side of GVSU.

OTOH - When I looked at the current route, I thought immediately of another DASH route, versus spending 75 Million on a streetcar.

Thoughts?

You have to realize that this North and South alignment on Monroe has been vetted. The Monroe Streetcar has the ability to satisfy many requirements to make this a success. You got empty properties, activity centers, parking ramps, transit center serving 8M+ riders, Amtrak, etc. However, there's more to this story then I can say.

On your other thought on Dash instead. Take a look at why we are even discussing a downtown streetcar: $388 million. That's how much downtown can expect to see in development. This is our "second wave" or a good part of it. I don't think any of the current hundreds if not billions of dollars in downtown development can be attributed to DASH alone.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

Chris Knape ponders whether $10 Million for a parking ramp could be better spent on mass transit