Winston-Salem may annex land by June

[DCMetroRaleigh]

The problem is that for decades, Fayetteville was stymied from annexing. ONly in recent years has the city been able to annex. Now, they are making up for lost time and still have not yet achieved annexation in proportion to the real size of the city.

[suburban george3]

The problem is that for decades, Fayetteville was stymied from annexing. ONly in recent years has the city been able to annex. Now, they are making up for lost time and still have not yet achieved annexation in proportion to the real size of the city.

From being in Fayetteville quite a bit lately, I don't see what else is urbanized enough to annex. There are large areas already in the city that seem quite rural. I feel Fayetteville is already "larger" than it probably should be. IMO

Another thing Fayetteville needs to consider, which may be part of her plans, is that more urban encroachment towards Ft. Bragg makes the base less and less desirable for military operations. I know Bragg is the crown jewel of military installations in NC and I would hate to see it's future dimmed or extinguished due to out of control growth by Fayetteville/Spring Lake.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Annexation does not in itself precipitate sprawl or urbanization. If anything, it is a response to de facto urbanization that already exists. Rock Creek Park is inside the boundaries of DC, yet it remains pristine forest nonetheless. Annexing Ft Bragg won't change the base anymore than the military wants it to.

[nowensone]

So, I reckon cities should never annex; stagnate and shrivle?

Depends on the scenario and reasoning, but there seem to be many here who are in this purely because they are number junkies. The race to greater population gets ridiculous at times. I live in GSO, and while I can act like I am better because we have a greater population, I know we are inferior in terms of skyline. But in the end it is the quality of life of the population, city services, the environment, education, etc. I was the Rain Man of number junkies as a kid, but then I got to experience some of the places that were high on the "lists", and am now a changed man.

There are many cities that Charlotte, for example, will pass on the " top 20 list" at the next census, but they are just numbers, on an abstraction, a list. We still know that Baltimore is far larger, Atlanta is far larger, Miami is far larger, San Fransisco, Boston, Minneapolis, etc. In the end, all we're left with is a number, and nothing else. If one really wants to be a number junky, look at density, and the incredible differences in land area between American cities.

[blburton]

THANK YOU!!

Depends on the scenario and reasoning, but there seem to be many here who are in this purely because they are number junkies. The race to greater population gets ridiculous at times. I live in GSO, and while I can act like I am better because we have a greater population, I know we are inferior in terms of skyline. But in the end it is the quality of life of the population, city services, the environment, education, etc. I was the Rain Man of number junkies as a kid, but then I got to experience some of the places that were high on the "lists", and am now a changed man.

There are many cities that Charlotte, for example, will pass on the " top 20 list" at the next census, but they are just numbers, on an abstraction, a list. We still know that Baltimore is far larger, Atlanta is far larger, Miami is far larger, San Fransisco, Boston, Minneapolis, etc. In the end, all we're left with is a number, and nothing else. If one really wants to be a number junky, look at density, and the incredible differences in land area between American cities.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

I prefer NC's turbo annexation wars wherein cities race to see how much land they can gobble up without much restraint to other states' anti-annexation laws that prevent cities from taking in the urbanization surrounding its borders and taxing its services. In my opinion, NC's annexation law is a tad too conservative.

[nowensone]

I would prefer NC's turbo annexation wars wherein cities race to see how much land they can gobble up without much restraint to other states' anti-annexation laws that prevent cities from taking in the urbanization surrounding its borders and taxing its services. In my opinion, NC's annexation law is a tad too conservative.

I think it fair to annex urbanized areas that city funds indirectly pay for/support (I believe Baltimore would be the poster child city there for getting screwed), but these annexation races seem out of hand, and if for no other reason than to beat your neighbor, well, that's not exactly a reason. I honestly do not know how "legitimate" all of the annexations by GSO, WS and HP have been, but it is obvious that they aren't just doing so for the right reasons, but that each is in a war with each other as you mention. They don't even disguise it.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

SUMMARY: ANNEXATION DEVELOPMENT REQUIREMENTS UNDER NC STATE STATUTES

Annexation areas in order to qualify must not be part of another local municipality,

Annexation areas must have at least 12

[nowensone]

^So technically they could keep gobbling up most of the county (eventually), all in the name of name of having a higher population, doesn't actually change anything but the numbers. City remains the same unless it grows internally. 2.3 persons per acre equals somewhat rural areas, yes, a little better than farms, but not much more. Suburbia usually packs, what, 3-4 units to an acre including the streets, with an average household of 2.5 that gives approx 9 people. Not trying to start an argument here, I like seeing our cities rise on the charts, but it would be more impressive if done honestly, else we'll be like the cheaters, Jacksonville, Louisville, any body sporting over 400 square miles, you know who you are. All 5 boroughs of NYC only add up to a little more than 300 square miles of land area..

[DCMetroRaleigh]

An analysis of the relationship between the annexation patterns and fiscal health of the nation's largest cities shows that:

A city's ability to annex land from its surrounding county is a primary determinant of its fiscal health. Cities with greater abilities to annex have much higher bond rating scores. Of cities in large metropolitan areas, every city that expanded its boundaries by as little as 15 percent between 1950 and 2000 had a high bond rating in 2002. Conversely, all cities with low bond ratings are those that had been unable to expand their boundaries.

The ability to annex land varies widely by region and state. Most high-bond-rated cities are located in "big box" states (primarily in the South and West) where land is more easily annexed. Most low-bond-rated cities are in "little box" states (primarily in the Northeast and Midwest) where land is more difficult, or impossible, to annex.

Annexation is far from an outmoded, dying practice. During the 1990s, about 90 percent of the central cities that could annex additional land did so. Collectively, in just one decade they expanded their municipal territory by more than 3,000 square miles.

The flexibility to annex surrounding land and communities was more important to a city's bond rating (a sign of fiscal health) than the area's poverty rate or median household income. Annexing land, therefore, appears to be an important route to economic health and development for the nation's urban areas. State legislatures can play a vital role in ensuring the fiscal viability of their state by reviewing, and revising if necessary, state land development, zoning, and annexation laws. With careful planning, states can promote more compact development, preserve farmland and natural areas, and encourage reinvestment in older residential and commercial areas

http://www.brookings.edu/metro/pubs/200608...ateofcities.htm

[cityboi]

city website uses figures from 2000 census. thats where i got my #s from. http://www.ci.winston-salem.nc.us/Assets/C...ummary_June.pdf

for 2006, im sure the officials are right!

If it is accurate, it puts Winston-Salem within spittin distance of Greensboro. But something tells me Greensboro will do some annexation of its own to keep the title as the Triad's largest city and the 3rd largest city in NC. Thats just one of the reasons cities like to annex. according to the U.S. Census, Winston-Salem's population in 2005 was 193,755 which would put Winston at 210,755 after annexation based on that figure. So Im not sure where wxii's figure came from because according them it was based of the 2005 census estimates. Some how wxii's figure puts WInston-Salem at around 210,000 before the annexation which is a big jump from 193,755. The city's website also list Winston's current population as 193,755.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFP...n&pctxt=fph

[blburton]

You know Greensboro will.... I could bet you that the next area to annex would be the southeastern quadrant of the urban loop because that area is growing like crazy.

If it is accurate, it puts Winston-Salem within spittin distance of Greensboro. But something tells me Greensboro will do some annexation of its own to keep the title as the Triad's largest city and the 3rd largest city in NC. Thats just one of the reasons cities like to annex.

[cityboi]

You know Greensboro will.... I could bet you that the next area to annex would be the southeastern quadrant of the urban loop because that area is growing like crazy.

yea. they have already started. The new maps show that the city as annexed the southeastern loop itself. Pretty soon they will fill in. There are a number of new housing development just waiting to be annexed.

[twincity]

If it is accurate, it puts Winston-Salem within spittin distance of Greensboro. But something tells me Greensboro will do some annexation of its own to keep the title as the Triad's largest city and the 3rd largest city in NC. Thats just one of the reasons cities like to annex. according to the U.S. Census, Winston-Salem's population in 2005 was 193,755 which would put Winston at 210,755 after annexation based on that figure. So Im not sure where wxii's figure came from because according them it was based of the 2005 census estimates. Some how wxii's figure puts WInston-Salem at around 210,000 before the annexation which is a big jump from 193,755. The city's website also list Winston's current population as 193,755.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFP...n&pctxt=fph

17,500 is the population from the 2000 census. WXII is using new numbers from the state.

[cityboi]

17,500 is the population from the 2000 census. WXII is using new numbers from the state.

additional areas must have been included becasue thats a big difference between 205,000 and 227,000 Im not sure how there are two different census figures.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

The state Office of State Budget and Management does its own yearly population estimates that tend to depart considerably from US Census estimates. In 2004, the Office determined that Winston had a population of 195,536.

http://demog.state.nc.us/

[cityboi]

The state Office of State Budget and Management does its own yearly population estimates that tend to depart considerably from US Census estimates. In 2004, the Office determined that Winston had a population of 195,536.

http://demog.state.nc.us/

even using those figures that would mean Winston would have had to gain 15,000 people between 2004 and 2006 to make the math work out where Winston has 227,000 people after annexation. It seems wxii must have made an error.

[blburton]

As an FYI from Greensboro's city website: "The Planning Department's estimated 2006 population for City of Greensboro is 240,955."

If it is accurate, it puts Winston-Salem within spittin distance of Greensboro. But something tells me Greensboro will do some annexation of its own to keep the title as the Triad's largest city and the 3rd largest city in NC. Thats just one of the reasons cities like to annex. according to the U.S. Census, Winston-Salem's population in 2005 was 193,755 which would put Winston at 210,755 after annexation based on that figure. So Im not sure where wxii's figure came from because according them it was based of the 2005 census estimates. Some how wxii's figure puts WInston-Salem at around 210,000 before the annexation which is a big jump from 193,755. The city's website also list Winston's current population as 193,755.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFP...n&pctxt=fph

[cityboi]

As an FYI from Greensboro's city website: "The Planning Department's estimated 2006 population for City of Greensboro is 240,955."

I think its very appropriate that they call them estimates and no the exact population because there is likely a margin of error but estimates are pretty close to the actual count. It seems just like yesterday Greensboro passed the 200,000 mark. actually that happened less than 10 years ago. Its a big gain for Greensboro over a short period of time and that has alot to do with annexation. Winston will see a big gain to. 17,000 is alot to add at one time. Greensboro is certainly pushing the quarter of a million mark.

[Forsyth]

I think its very appropriate that they call them estimates and no the exact population because there is likely a margin of error but estimates are pretty close to the actual count. It seems just like yesterday Greensboro passed the 200,000 mark. actually that happened less than 10 years ago. Its a big gain for Greensboro over a short period of time and that has alot to do with annexation. Winston will see a big gain to. 17,000 is alot to add at one time. Greensboro is certainly pushing the quarter of a million mark.

Winston-salem is moving up, it's national population ranking may be 78 after annexation.

In to days WS journal

[DCMetroRaleigh]

17,000 is a lot to add at one time, but Fayetteville annexed almost 45,000 at one time this year.

[Forsyth]

Now they are saying about 20,000

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Winston-Salem is projected under annexation to make a big move up the list of top 100 U.S. cities with the largest populations, displacing Durham along the way as the fourth-largest city in North Carolina.

A new estimate done by officials with the City-County Planning Department shows that the population of Winston-Salem will increase to 227,727 come Sept. 30, when the city officially extends its boundaries around 20 square miles in Forsyth County and 20,727 people through annexation.

A previous estimate released three years ago suggested a population increase of about 17,000, but according to the latest city-county census, Winston-Salem could climb from its national population ranking of 110th to 77th, officials said Friday.

After annexation, planning officials estimate that Winston-Salem will be close in size to such cities as Baton Rouge, La., Hialeah, Fla., Jersey City, N.J., Madison, Wis., and Greensboro.

In North Carolina, Winston-Salem's size would be slightly less than Greensboro's 231,543, the number listed in a 2004 U.S. Census estimate. But an expanded Winston-Sa-lem would take Durham's spot as the fourth-largest city in the state.

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellit...d=1149190246070

[nowensone]

^True, though be careful of the comparisons. For example, Jersey City is something like 36 square miles or something tiny like that. Hialeah is like 20. If either of these annexed to a size similar to WS/GSO you'd have an entirely different ranking. Baton Rouge is also smaller in size than WS or GSO. But that's OK, the Triad is still better.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Post-Katrina Baton Rouge probably has over 400,000 people now.