The state of Raleigh's leadership

[ChiefJoJo]

bringing back this topic...

Given recent or pending city council actions related to the drought, impact fees, infill teardowns, restrictions on sink disposals, etc, how would you grade the city council A-F in their first 4 months?

[Gard]

bringing back this topic...

Given recent or pending city council actions related to the drought, impact fees, infill teardowns, restrictions on sink disposals, etc, how would you grade the city council A-F in their first 4 months?

[yoga]

^ a tad severe, IMHO.

I think they're doing a decent job, actually. Garbage disposals aren't a great invention anyway, they just encourage people to put more crap into the waste systems than what they are meant to deal with. Out of sight out of mind doesn't d any good for any of us.

I see the council encouraging input with future thinking, they are greener than any council I can remember, and they've had a lot to content with on the whole drought thing. I see the drought and the garbage disposal things as a way toward greener thinking. We're not the only part of the country, much less the rest of the world dealing with water resources. It's only going to get worse as the area and populations grow. As for the garbage disposal thing, on a much smaller scale, we should be thinking about what we waste, and how to deal with it under our own roofs, not continuing to expect someone or something else to deal with it.

4 months isn't very long to have tremendous expectations - especially for new folks. Did you know how everything worked when you were 4 months into your last new job? I sure didn't! This stuff doesn't happen overnight. I'm encouraged that issues are at least getting some attentive airtime, like transit and the tear down situation.

*plink* *plink*

[RaleighRob]

I'd say "I" for Incomplete. There is a good amount of things I'd like to see them address, but hasn't happened yet.

[ncwebguy]

T for Too soon to tell.

I appreciate that subjects like the drought, teardowns, transportation, etc. are being discussed and public input is genuinely collected and considered.

It is weird that some agenda items like garbage disposals seem to have been fast tracked from discussion to ban. The original reasoning behind the ban -- sewer system backups due to large amounts of grease introduced people dumping everything down the drain -- has been lost in the anti-ban uproar. The media has given more ink/airtime to people complaining than the problem the ban wants to solve.

The potential smoking ban in public parks is another topic that has received similar treatment. The "why can't I smoke outside" crowd has overwhelmed/replaced coverage on the issue at hand -- several citizens complained that the Pullen Park playground was being used as a giant ash tray by some inconsiderate smokers.

My grade for the council will depend on how well they can compromise on the issues. Designated smoking areas and/or ash trays away from playground equipment for the parking/smoking issue, *optional* neighborhood conservation overaly districts for infill/teardown areas, etc. I think/hope that will come after public input has been solicited, collected, and reviewed, but the four months have not provided enough time for the process to come to completion/fruition yet.

And yes, there are other subjects council has not yet addressed, but they still have 1.5+ years of their current terms.

[Gard]

^ a tad severe, IMHO.

Garbage disposals aren't a great invention anyway, they just encourage people to put more crap into the waste systems than what they are meant to deal with. Out of sight out of mind doesn't d any good for any of us.

I'm encouraged that issues are at least getting some attentive airtime, like transit and the tear down situation.

*plink* *plink*

[ChiefJoJo]

^ A council subcommittee recommended that the disposal ban be repealed, so it's likely that it will occur today.

I think they have had some divisive issues to address with the drought and teardowns. It is easy to second guess the council on the drought, but considering much was the responsibility of the previous council, they get decent marks. They need to tread lightly on teardowns. This can easily be made into a major wedge issue in the future... the type that can raise money and turn a campaign.

Raising impact fees was the issue that got many of them elected, so that is no surprise. Too bad the majority of voters are out to lunch when it comes to supporting seeing them through. I think the mayor made a mistake with his surcharge proposal and the council taking actions on the disposal ban. I am generally pleased with the progressive makeup of this council, so I hope that a repeal will not have this linger in the minds of voters in 16 months. The worry is that they do not have a very strong mandate, so picking and choosing to tackle the unpopular issues would be wise IMO. They could also use a winning issue to shed some light on their lesser known, positive initiatives. I know I keep beating this drum, but speaking out strongly in favor of transit at the right time could be one.

Given the tough issues, I'll go with a C ... needs improvement.

[askmisterbrown]

Well, I would give this council an A-, because they are certainly the most progressive council I have seen in my 22 years in Raleigh.

I'm all for the impact fee increases. We need to be in line with other cities on this.

I supported the garbage disposal ban, and it's too bad the council had to bow to the noisy selfish interests, but they do have to please enough people to get re-elected if they are to have a lasting impact. The council should have taken the time to educate people about how damaging and unnecessary the disposals are, and THEN banned them.

I agree with the Chief that they need to tread lightly on teardowns, for the same reason.

The main reason I add the "minus" to the A is that I cannot understand why they would allow people to wash their cars all day Saturday and Sunday, but only water their garden early Saturday morning, in my case. (For some people it is Sunday morning.) I don't have a lawn, but I have two award-winning gardens, both tourist attractions. One of them contains some valuable plants that might die in a hot dry spell without a little water. If I have to be out of town on Saturday, they're dead! I certainly can't remove them and put something else in at this point; most new plants have to be watered regularly the first summer or they won't make it. I reuse all the water in my house. I rinse my dishes and drink the rinse water. I take military showers then reuse the water to flush the toilet. But I would hate to lose my gardens, and I'd hate to take their beauty away from all the people that walk by and enjoy them. And I haven't washed my car in years, and I don't care to!

[Gard]

Well, I would give this council an A-, because they are certainly the most progressive council I have seen in my 22 years in Raleigh.

I supported the garbage disposal ban, and it's too bad the council had to bow to the noisy selfish interests, but they do have to please enough people to get re-elected if they are to have a lasting impact. The council should have taken the time to educate people about how damaging and unnecessary the disposals are, and THEN banned them.

[dmccall]

ON GARBAGE DISPOSERS: The ban was proposed to address sewer back up accidents presumably caused by fat/oil/grease (FOG) accumulation. The ban was proposed based on observations by field workers, not by science. A closer look at the actual blobs in 23 different cities was accomplished. 86% of the blobs were pure saturated fats. The other 14% was calcifications and sand. No food particles were found in the blobs.

Thankfully, the City Council took a step back, looked at the evidence, and saw that there is no reason to back a ban on disposers. The committee last week included Koopman, West, Crowder, and Meeker. I commend them for admitting that they jumped to an irrational conclusion. I wish some of you would put your class-warfare tactics aside, look into the issue more, and do the same.

There is a cause to this effect, but it has nothing to do with disposers. Rather, try figuring out how to tell people to quit pouring grease down the drain (this happens in houses with and without disposers).

[Jones_]

A good sewer use ordinance should at least lay down the what can an cannot go into a sewer system. The one in Raleigh likely implicitly disallows ground food(and explicitly grease) with a clause something along the lines only human waste and toilet paper, and nothing else. This is because sewers are not designed at minimum grade to scour heavy food particles no matter how ground up they are. But because they rot away so quickly they would rarely be the sole cause of a sewer back-up. Somehow, whatever is in the sewer use ordinance should be distributed to people...spending a million dollars might not be a good idea on printed materials, so maybe at CAC's have some available, maybe buy a page in the N&O and put in important excerpts.....if I think about I will try to get a copy if there is not already on online somewhere...

[dmccall]

Who said that "you aren't supposed to" put food in a sewer system? If that were the case, they wouldn't allow any solid matter in the system at all. One of the study's points is that food particles move just fine through a system not laden with fat deposits. You have three options for moving this food matter away from people's houses: composting, sending it through pipes or hauling it to the landfill. All have costs.

Improper composting methods will lead to a huge increase in wildlife in the city (and animal control burdens) and odor problems. Given how poorly people manage rotating their tires, changing their oil, and having dental hygiene appointments, do you think they will stay on top of their compost management? Many residents, the more concentrated ones (condos, apartments, townhouses) especially, don't have the land to compost. Sewers have to be cleaned (with our manpower and equipment this, at best, can be done twice a year). Hauling it involves manpower, diesel fuel, road wear, truck wear, and landfill issues.

The problem with newspaper ads and printed material is that they only reach people who care to read them, can read at all, and can read whatever language you choose for communication. Yes, I'm talking about blind people. just kidding.

This is from Dale Crisp:

older sewers are more susceptible and 9 of the 21 grease caused SSOs experienced in 2007 occurred inside the “Beltline” and south of downtown

[askmisterbrown]

The grease in the sewers is not just from people pouring grease down the drain. When food with fat content is put down the drain, the grease separates from the rest of the food. This would include lasagna or casserole or quiche or pizza, anything with ground beef or butter or sausage or bacon, etc. You can prove this in your own kitchen. Fill a sink with water, put some lasagna or bacon or buttered broccoli in there, and the grease will eventually rise and solidify.

Some things do not require an experiment in a university laboratory, just common sense and life experience. And paying attention.

[Jones_]

Who said that "you aren't supposed to" put food in a sewer system? If that were the case, they wouldn't allow any solid matter in the system at all. One of the study's points is that food particles move just fine through a system not laden with fat deposits. You have three options for moving this food matter away from people's houses: composting, sending it through pipes or hauling it to the landfill. All have costs.

Improper composting methods will lead to a huge increase in wildlife in the city (and animal control burdens) and odor problems. Given how poorly people manage rotating their tires, changing their oil, and having dental hygiene appointments, do you think they will stay on top of their compost management? Many residents, the more concentrated ones (condos, apartments, townhouses) especially, don't have the land to compost. Sewers have to be cleaned (with our manpower and equipment this, at best, can be done twice a year). Hauling it involves manpower, diesel fuel, road wear, truck wear, and landfill issues.

[dmccall]

If you looked at a map of where the accidents took place, you would see no accidents in many areas of Raleigh, with old infrastructure, large old trees, and large houses that presumably have high garbage disposer concentrations.

As far as fats separating in one's sink, it isn't that perfect. There may be some separation, but as this all does down the tube, normal flow isn't separated that perfectly. You would have some organic matter clinging to the accumulated fat. The sample, on the other hand, is an almost perfect isolation of fat from organic.

Disposers grinding food particles to a 1-2mm piece does provide more overall mass to the system. However a system without disposers will have larger particles getting by drain screens, and having a harder time moving with fluid flow. You'd be pushing bricks instead of marbles.

[ncwebguy]

12 out of 21 grease backups did not occur inside the beltline or south of downtown, in relatively newer, higher capacity, fat friendly pipes. Yes, education is in order for North Raleigh who are overwhelming the sewer system. The garbage disposal lobby has a lot more money and experts to throw at the issue than scientists. There should be formal studies ongoing, but the issue is so toxic now the matter won't be taken up until Charlotte, Atlanta, or Durham takes it up and we'll follow their lead.

Putting grease in plastic bags in landfills is not ideal, but that system does not cause any sewer overflows, and will likely not take up any space in trash bags already being tossed in roll out carts. Grease traps could/should make sense in larger apartment/condo buildings, and would go towards reaching the goals initial ban wanted to achieve.

I'd take a council that investigates the issues than rubber stamps them (see Wake County board of commissioners and North Hills East's TIF) any day of the week. Being proactive, via the interm downtown plan, LED useage, etc., is a good thing.

EDIT: The disposal ban was a function of being proactive, and they thought the "on the ground" research done by city staff who cleaned up the blockages was enough research to justify the move. I *hope* it doesn't make them gunshy about other measures, and they've learned to get solid data/info before voting. But they should not kill off issues by keeping them indefinately in committee/research either.

[dmccall]

I'd take a council that investigates the issues than rubber stamps them (see Wake County board of commissioners and North Hills East's TIF) any day of the week. Being proactive, via the interm downtown plan, LED useage, etc., is a good thing.

[ChiefJoJo]

What does everyone think of this?

[Gard]

^

I saw that in the paper the other day and meant to post something on it. I really think that this will undermine people's confidence in the city, at least it has undermined mine. I also give kudos to Isley, Meeker and the others for not participating. One of them represents my district and they certainly have lost my vote. They are walking a fine legal line here and if it turns out they are using it to do city business, they will no doubt be charged by the state.

[Jones_]

What does everyone think of this?

[RaleighRob]

^Agree with Jones. This is nothing new nor newsworthy. I remember not long ago sitting at the downtown IHOP hearing a conversation in a booth next to mine....at least three state senators talking about the wording they preferred for a bill.

Big deal.

[askmisterbrown]

This is probably what they were talking about:

http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive...-heather-vance/

[Beth Y]

The way I understand it, under public meetings law, any members of public bodies (City council, planning commission, etc) can talk all they want in private as long as the number of members do not constitute a quorum of any council, senate, board or whatever, or any committee of such group. Anytime a quorum of such a public entity meets, it is considered a public meeting and needs to be properly public noticed and open to the public. Of course, this does not apply to social gatherings, as is assumed the officials are not discussing public business, but I am guessing that is where most of the violations of this law happen, although probably not always by intent (i.e. rarely would people say "lets go to the party so we can talk about it" more likely it is just running into people and getting to talking about an issue).

Now where people have run into trouble in the past (i.e. Fetzer, etc) is where they have an intentional gathering where such a quorum is there, it is not public noticed, and business is discussed. Such violations allow a majority to work behind the scenes, which is not how "public meetings" are supposed to work. If they are discussing our tax dollars, it should be open.

If this is truly happening (I have no idea what the facts are) and if I was Meeker or Isley, I would be pissed too. This is what they called Fetzer on the carpet for, and if it is being done again, there should be the same inquiry, in my opinion.. and I am NOT a Fetzer fan, but the rules have to apply fairly, people!

And if you don't think Isley is asked out to bars, you don't know Isley.

[Jones_]

^I couldn't make the sarcastic sound come through in my words...I don't know what Isley really does in his spare time except whine about convention centers, and then marvel at how pretty they are after they are complete. Meeker probably smartly stepped aside from these talks to 1) avoid political fallout via WRAL and/or 2) to avoid there being a Quorum..he would make 5.

[ERG]

This is probably what they were talking about:

http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive...-heather-vance/