Atlanta Beltline - Emerald Necklace

[ryanmckibben]

^My fair Lady...

Mr Mason can shove his 39 story tower...well never mind. If built, those towers would have cast a shadow over the entire Meadow during the morning and early afternoon ( the towers were situated so that the side profile faced east/west). Atlanta still has PLENTY of room in it's urban core for high rise buildings. I agree that one day we may see towers around the edges of Piedmont Park, but that day is well in the future.

Mason has been appraoched several times about a compromise, and all but the most fanatical would be more then happy with a midrise building there. Unfortunately, he's not interested. My prediction is that this is nothing more then a ploy to eventually get what he wants. What should happen, is the City should use it's power of eminant domain, and sieze the land. This type of project is exactly what eminant domain was created for (as opposed to siezing land for a Super Wall Mart). Mr Mason can tuck tail back to suburbia and build strip malls. That's what he's good at.

[pksiv]

^My fair Lady...

Mr Mason can shove his 39 story tower...well never mind. If built, those towers would have cast a shadow over the entire Meadow during the morning and early afternoon ( the towers were situated so that the side profile faced east/west). Atlanta still has PLENTY of room in it's urban core for high rise buildings. I agree that one day we may see towers around the edges of Piedmont Park, but that day is well in the future.

Mason has been appraoched several times about a compromise, and all but the most fanatical would be more then happy with a midrise building there. Unfortunately, he's not interested. My prediction is that this is nothing more then a ploy to eventually get what he wants. What should happen, is the City should use it's power of eminant domain, and sieze the land. This type of project is exactly what eminant domain was created for (as opposed to siezing land for a Super Wall Mart). Mr Mason can tuck tail back to suburbia and build strip malls. That's what he's good at.

This is a typical "Not in my neighborhood" response. The people who live around Piedmont Park seem to think it is their park and not for the entire city. No development, No parking deck, No No No more people using our Park.

In order for the transportation and greenspace portion of the Beltline to work, development needs to be sufficient to provide tax revenue. A Tax allocation doesn't work if there is no development to pay taxes. Although I'm sure you wouldn't oppose development in other neighborhoods along the beltline.

If we're going to see it eventually, why not now, when the tax revenue from such a project can have the biggest impact ?

If smaller buildings are built, access to the park will be only for the rich. How expensive do you think Townhouses built on the property next to Park Tavern would cost ?

[orulz]

I wish Wayne Mason didn't get the jump on the city by buying the rail corridor from Norfolk Southern first. If the land were in public hands (or TPL) then the city would both own the land for the transit line, and be in a position to parcel it out - some for parks, and RFPs for some commercial development.

Now, Mason has the city by the balls - just where he wants 'em.

Eminent domain may sound like a good idea, but someone with the financial backing and legal team of Mason could lock the city up in a legal battle over the price until the price gets so high that Atlanta can't afford the land anymore.

[ryanmckibben]

WHAT??? I don't even know where to start.

First of all I see nothing in my original post that labels me a NIMBY.

I was against the parking deck because I am flat out opposed to building a parking deck for cars inside a city park built for people. We tried to come up with a better solution, one of which was to build a deck on the Grady High lot that students and teachers could use during the week and park goers could use on the weekends. Apparantly that made too much sense. Your assertion that we want no more people in "our" park is laughably absurd. This year the NPU has approved more festivals and events in the park then anytime in the past.

As for your fine and in depth explanation of the way TAD's work, you are correct that development needs to occur in order for the city to have the ability to issue bonds. No one doesn't want development to occur. We just don't feel it necessary to hand complete control over our neighborhoods to a developer. That's how metro Atlanta got into this mess in the first place. You are correct that I don't oppose development in other neighborhoods, but I also don't oppose development in my neighborhood either. I simply oppose this development in it's proposed location.

You propose that building anything but highrises would relegate Piedmont Park to an enclave of the rich. I struggle to see your logic. Do you think that simply because they are high rises that the developer would sell them at rates us regular schlubs could afford? In reality what would happen is that the rich would get to live in their high rise condo and look out their windows at the rest of us having to play flag football or soccor in the shadow of their new building.

Edited September 22, 2006 by ryanmckibben

[Andrea]

I wish Wayne Mason didn't get the jump on the city by buying the rail corridor from Norfolk Southern first. If the land were in public hands (or TPL) then the city would both own the land for the transit line, and be in a position to parcel it out - some for parks, and RFPs for some commercial development.

It seems to me Mason got a mind-bogglingly good deal on this property. As I recall it's about 67 acres, and he only paid $25 million. That's less than $375,000 per acre, which is half of what you'd pay for an undeveloped residential lot in Buckhead or VA-Highland, and probably 1/10th of what you'd pay for commercial land.

[pksiv]

I said it was a 'typical' response because that's all I ever hear when it comes to any type of development in or around the park. And, ALL of the opposition to the parking deck, that I heard in the public anyway, was about traffic in the area. I try and pay attention to these things and I never once heard about an option to build a deck at Grady. Although since it's a pretty good walk from Grady to the Botanical Gardens, I can see that as one reason that idea didn't fly. If you lived around 14th & Piedmont during Chiluly you'd realize how important more parking near the BG is.

Economics says that the more units you put on a piece of land, the less expensive they will be. You can negotiate the pricepoints on a highrise and the builder won't go out and build a place like the Mansion in Buckhead. But if there's only 32 TH's ON THE PARK. They will quickly be inflated in price by simple supply and demand.

[pksiv]

It seems to me Mason got a mind-bogglingly good deal on this property. As I recall it's about 67 acres, and he only paid $25 million. That's less than $375,000 per acre, which is half of what you'd pay for an undeveloped residential lot in Buckhead or VA-Highland, and probably 1/10th of what you'd pay for commercial land.

If it were a 67 acre parcel like the North Woods I would totally agree with you but since the majority of it is only about 40 feet wide, it's not really apples to oranges. Not to mention that he was planning on donating 46 acres to the city to be used along with the North Woods expansion.

Also, there is a degree of risk to all of this. Without the Beltline going forward or at least approval for development on some of the larger parcels, the land is worthless to a developer.

Edited September 22, 2006 by pksiv

[ryanmckibben]

I said it was a 'typical' response because that's all I ever hear when it comes to any type of development in or around the park. And, ALL of the opposition to the parking deck, that I heard in the public anyway, was about traffic in the area. I try and pay attention to these things and I never once heard about an option to build a deck at Grady. Although since it's a pretty good walk from Grady to the Botanical Gardens, I can see that as one reason that idea didn't fly. If you lived around 14th & Piedmont during Chiluly you'd realize how important more parking near the BG is.

Economics says that the more units you put on a piece of land, the less expensive they will be. You can negotiate the pricepoints on a highrise and the builder won't go out and build a place like the Mansion in Buckhead. But if there's only 32 TH's ON THE PARK. They will quickly be inflated in price by simple supply and demand.

Unless you sat in on some of the meetings with ABG you probably would not have heard about the Grady proposal. It was quickly shot down for the very reason you stated. Too far from the Gardens. Interestingly, ABG "rammed" this through as a deck for the park. It was clear from the beginning that this was a deck for the gardens, not the park. Dishonest tactics such as that didn't win them any fans in the neighborhood either. In the end, I am a fan, actually, a member of the ABG. I understand the need for more parking and at the end resigned myself to the fact that it was going to happen. What I am still opposed to and disgusted by is the access road that will be built from Monroe Dr and cut through the park at grade. No excuse for this.

I have rudimentary knowledge of economics and think I have a pretty good grasp of basic supply/demand principles. What I also know that is no matter how many units are built on that lot, demand will always outstrip supply. Those condos would be priced from 500k and up, and I think that is conservative.

[pksiv]

Unless you sat in on some of the meetings with ABG you probably would not have heard about the Grady proposal. It was quickly shot down for the very reason you stated. Too far from the Gardens. Interestingly, ABG "rammed" this through as a deck for the park. It was clear from the beginning that this was a deck for the gardens, not the park. Dishonest tactics such as that didn't win them any fans in the neighborhood either. In the end, I am a fan, actually, a member of the ABG. I understand the need for more parking and at the end resigned myself to the fact that it was going to happen. What I am still opposed to and disgusted by is the access road that will be built from Monroe Dr and cut through the park at grade. No excuse for this.

I have rudimentary knowledge of economics and think I have a pretty good grasp of basic supply/demand principles. What I also know that is no matter how many units are built on that lot, demand will always outstrip supply. Those condos would be priced from 500k and up, and I think that is conservative.

I agree that they won't be cheap but what condos in town are cheap ? Think of all the additional tax revenue that will be generated ? How much would 30 or so TH units have to cost in order to generate the same tax base ? And I think you can agree that if they only built 30 or so townhouses, they'd cost in the millions.

[UrbanAtl]

I want to know more about taking the land under eminant domain. Could that really be an option? I personally would love to see it. Yes, Mason has already invested $25m of his own money, but he will make a large profit for his investment. I think that he's just being greedy at this point by not giving in a little more. Would eminant domain really end up in a long court battle or could it be short-n-sweet?

[urbanaturalist]

The city should pull out its wild card, throw its eminent domain card out on to the table. This Beltline project is bigger and cast a much more perpetual legacy than one man and a few buildings. At first he was all charitable, donating parkland and all, but know its like he's being possessed with "evil developer" syndrome. I don't live in ATL, but I've followed the story. Show dude to the eminent domain gallery and exorcise (exercise) some city power.

Edited September 24, 2006 by urbanaturalist

[ryanmckibben]

Eminant Domain is most certainly an option. This type of project is exactly what eminant domain was created for. The problem is that Mason would tie it up in court for so long that the Beltline might be around for our grandchildren.

[Andrea]

Eminant Domain is most certainly an option. This type of project is exactly what eminant domain was created for. The problem is that Mason would tie it up in court for so long that the Beltline might be around for our grandchildren.

Condemnation might slow things down for a while but it might also force a compromise. Granted, Mason doesn't have that much invested in this property, but $25 million is enough that he's not going to want it tied up forever (unless he's got deep pocket Asian backers or something like that).

In the meantime, the City could go forward with other sections of the Beltline, like the northwest quadrant and the park at Bellwood quarry. I'm sure there's years of design work to be done anyway.

[pksiv]

Condemnation might slow things down for a while but it might also force a compromise. Granted, Mason doesn't have that much invested in this property, but $25 million is enough that he's not going to want it tied up forever (unless he's got deep pocket Asian backers or something like that).

In the meantime, the City could go forward with other sections of the Beltline, like the northwest quadrant and the park at Bellwood quarry. I'm sure there's years of design work to be done anyway.

Does anyone think that the City will actually make this work without the aid of developers ?

As for Mason's $25Million, while it sounds cheap for the 67 acres of land, since he was planning on donating 45 or so acres to the City it really comes down to over $1 Million per acre. You can't exactly build single-family homes on that and expect to turn a profit.

What concerns me now is that he is full within his rights, and current zoning, to build homes on a good portion of the land that he was planning to donate to the city and which also would impede the transit portion of the beltline.

[verge]

Does anyone think that the City will actually make this work without the aid of developers ?

As for Mason's $25Million, while it sounds cheap for the 67 acres of land, since he was planning on donating 45 or so acres to the City it really comes down to over $1 Million per acre. You can't exactly build single-family homes on that and expect to turn a profit.

What concerns me now is that he is full within his rights, and current zoning, to build homes on a good portion of the land that he was planning to donate to the city and which also would impede the transit portion of the beltline.

And he certainly won't build houses on land that is valued at $1M per acre... I understand from a ULI meeting this morning that there is an effort to assemble a group of 'civic minded' developers to purchase the land and donate the transit portion... One would assume that these guys can live with the city's plan for the area... I, for one, was glad to see the city stick by its guns on this... Density is one thing... unlimited density is another--- its nice to see the city get serious about real planning... The beltline was originallly concieved with buildings between 5-10 stories... perhaps more at major urban corridors--- green space at Piedmont Park... all very reasonable assumptions...

[Andrea]

And he certainly won't build houses on land that is valued at $1M per acre...

Well, I don't think that's inconceivable at all. If he built them on 1/6 acre lots, his land cost would only be around $150K per unit. You could easily pop in nice city homes in the $850,000 to 1.2 million range and make a tidy profit. Or he could certainly do townhomes. That's similar to what's been done in Inman Park Village and in many places in Buckhead.

I'd personally prefer to see nice low or midrise multi-family buildings, but I wouldn't rule out singe family homes. You'd probably get less squawk from the neighborhoods, too.

[pksiv]

Well, I don't think that's inconceivable at all. If he built them on 1/6 acre lots, his land cost would only be around $150K per unit. You could easily pop in nice city homes in the $850,000 to 1.2 million range and make a tidy profit. Or he could certainly do townhomes. That's similar to what's been done in Inman Park Village and in many places in Buckhead.

I'd personally prefer to see nice low or midrise multi-family buildings, but I wouldn't rule out singe family homes. You'd probably get less squawk from the neighborhoods, too.

Not to mention that without a deal with the city, the land is nowhere near $1M/acre since he can build houses/cityhomes on a good portion of the 45 acres he was planning to donate to the city for the park.

I still think a big thing missing form the low-rise alternative is tax revenue to pay for the transit. 400 units at $300K-$1M+ would've been a significant tax influx and really get things moving.

Edited September 26, 2006 by pksiv

[ryanmckibben]

You make it sound like this is the only area that will see redevelopment, and that the neighborhood opposes all redevelopment along the Beltline.

Numerous developments are currently or soon to be underway all along the NE and NW part of the Beltline including the former City Hall East site which, by the way, was a perfect example of how to work with the neighborhoods instead of imposing your will on them. Moesburger and team met with reps from four different NPU's and in the end, although neither side got everything they were looking for, we end up with a project that the neighborhood can support and IMO is a better plan for it. Most people in the city do not oppose development. Why can't you seem to understand that it was simply THIS development that we opposed. Yes, the project would have brought in tax $$, but at what cost?

[Andrea]

Well, I don't think that's inconceivable at all. If he built them on 1/6 acre lots, his land cost would only be around $150K per unit.

That would make pretty good sized lots, by the way -- roughly 50 x 150 ft. Almost identical to what's currently in existence in that area of town.

[Andrea]

Important letter from Mayor Franklin about the Beltline:

Link

[pksiv]

Important letter from Mayor Franklin about the Beltline:

Link

From the article... "...stated that in his 40 year career never had he seen a project move faster from planning to funding to implementation than the BeltLine. "

Huh? What's been implemented ? Certainly not the transit loop. The only thing I've seen is the work the TFPL has done and the Quarry site. And it's my understanding that there are some issues with using the quarry itself for a lake as opposed to a reservoir which would be off limits to people.

"Make no mistake, the BeltLine will happen. Indeed, it already is." Again, What has happened ?

In the AJC today she says "Atlanta's development incentive will ensure that the Beltline is built over the next 20 years." Personally, I was hoping some of this would happen a little faster.

I've always been a big fan of Mayor Franklin's but about 6 months ago she also promised that we'd have Street Car running from Buckhead to Downtown within 3 years. I don't see anything happening with that either.

[ryanmckibben]

^Patience, pksiv, patience. Rome wasn't built in a day. The Streetcar taskforce is indeed making progress and I still belive that the streetcars will be up and running within 5 years. With regards to the Beltline, a $3 billion project does not happen overnight. When the NPU's were presented with the city's master plan for the Beltline, the transit portion was always thought to be 10-15 years away, and that was under the best of circumstances.

My main gripe is that the Beltline does seem to be stealing some of the thunder of the Peachtree Streetcar, which, IMHO, if far more important in the near term.

Edited September 28, 2006 by ryanmckibben

[pksiv]

^Patience, pksiv, patience. Rome wasn't built in a day. The Streetcar taskforce is indeed making progress and I still belive that the streetcars will be up and running within 5 years. With regards to the Beltline, a $3 billion project does not happen overnight. When the NPU's were presented with the city's master plan for the Beltline, the transit portion was always thought to be 10-15 years away, and that was under the best of circumstances.

My main gripe is that the Beltline does seem to be stealing some of the thunder of the Peachtree Streetcar, which, IMHO, if far more important in the near term.

I agree. Living just a block off of P'tree, the StreetCar is far more important to me. I went to the Website yesterday and it looked like the only news was that it's growing in length. Sounds like scope creap to me. They need to get a segment of it set up and running, and then work there way outward.

Personally I'm curious to see how this works North of where P'tree crosses the hwy since the road is already overly congested and winds considerably. I think the section from downtown through to say 20th Street is perfect.

[ryanmckibben]

I would not be suprised at all to see this thing built in phases. the most likely one, from my point of view at least, is DT to MT and them expanding it from there. I think it would work north of the Brookwood bridge, epecially in a couple of years.

[Lady Celeste]

Metro.m had posted this picture in another forum...

It is the picture of a BRT line proposed in Oregon if I remember what I read. I post this picture to ask....why can't we build this in the Beltline to save money. Looking at the medians, it appears that the "tracks" are just large enough for this system. There would be no need to worry if the "track" could be changed to a road. I think Mayor Franklin and planners should strongly consider such a system. As a matter of fact, I may print these out and go see Madam Mayor (although I'm not a constituent but she doesn't have to know ) myself. I think the Beltline will be a great addition to the urban fabric of the city and Atlanta is going to have to do everything possible to stay ahead of peer cities....not with them.