North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[kermit]

The Morganton paper has a story today on the Salisbury-Asheville passenger service. Not much in it is new news, but this blurb did catch my eye:

Quote

Wheeler said the North Carolina Department of Transportation also is including the Asheville-Salisbury corridor as one of 13 rail corridors it’s asking the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) to include in its Railroad Identification Program. The program is designed to speed the creation of additional rail passenger routes across the country, he said.

13 new corridors in NC? Seriously? Surely this is a typo? Off the top of my head NCDOT's corridor submissions would be: 

1) S-Line from Raleigh to Petersburg (and possibly S-Line to Sanford, but that feels like Commuter rail)
2) Raleigh to Wilmington
3) Salisbury to Asheville
4) Raleigh to Greenville NC (really borderline between commuter rail and inter city service)
5) Rocky Mount (Raleigh) to Norfolk (its been mentioned a bunch but seems weird to me)
6) Perhaps Charlotte south to Atlanta? (I had thought the grant was for new routes, but not an expert)
7) Connecting Winston to the NC passenger rail network?
Columbia from Raleigh (already exists) or Charlotte? (seems kinda futile but I guess worth some planning efforts)

I can't think of anything else that is vaguely viable (maybe Morehead City? Fayetteville to Raleigh?). What in the world could the other 5-6 routes be?

https://morganton.com/news/local/feasibility-study-on-rail-service-to-asheville-to-be-released-in-several-months/article_13ed01a0-c8f5-11ed-b600-8fb93ece2bae.html

Edited March 26, 2023 by kermit

[carolina1792]

Raleigh to Morehead City would probably be the easiest new route to build out right now.--it's already built and just needs some improvements.  Johnson County (Clayton, Selma/Smithfield), Goldsboro, Kinston, New Bern, and Morehead City have all expressed at one point recently that they would support a passenger rail service between Raleigh and Morehead City.  

 

Raleigh to Wilmington will be harder because that rail corridor has been abandoned and may require extensive rebuilding of the line and probably realignment. 

 

 

[Merthecat]

2 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

Raleigh to Morehead City would probably be the easiest new route to build out right now.--it's already built and just needs some improvements.  Johnson County (Clayton, Selma/Smithfield), Goldsboro, Kinston, New Bern, and Morehead City have all expressed at one point recently that they would support a passenger rail service between Raleigh and Morehead City.  

 

Raleigh to Wilmington will be harder because that rail corridor has been abandoned and may require extensive rebuilding of the line and probably realignment. 

 

 

How extensive are you thinking the improvements between Raleigh and Morehead City would need to be? Seems like street running in New Bern may be a barrier to expanding service unless there is a plan to reroute away from downtown.

[carolina1792]

9 hours ago, Merthecat said:

How extensive are you thinking the improvements between Raleigh and Morehead City would need to be? Seems like street running in New Bern may be a barrier to expanding service unless there is a plan to reroute away from downtown.

It's going to take some work (some passing rail, temporary stations with limited services) and almost every city down the line will eventually require some extensive route changes but if we don't mind the slow transit through towns we really don't even require proper train platforms at the beginning. A lot of AMTRAK routes don't even have platform boarding such as Portland, OR. 

 

140 miles with ten or so stops. Probably looking at a 4 to 4.5 hour transit between Raleigh Union Station and Morehead City initially maybe get it down to 2.5 hours after extensive modernization of the line down the road. 

[jthomas]

If the state bought the entire CSX line from Wilson to Wilmington, you could have an eastern NC network almost entirely on state-owned ROW. You'd have a north-south line from Rocky Mount to Wilmington, and an east-west line from Raleigh to Morehead City, with Goldsboro as a regional hub. In this scenario, I would envision a few miles of new track around Goldsboro to allow Raleigh-Wilmington trains to run through Goldsboro without changing direction, and a few miles of new track near Kinston, so that Greenville trains would run south to the NCRR via Kinston and then west to Raleigh. This structure would justify upgrades to the NCRR trunk that would benefit all services - it looks like the alignment geometry could support 110 mph running with little adjustment once you're east of Clayton.

[kermit]

A bunch of people would like Winston to be connected to the state’s passenger rail network. A bunch of other people say that is a stupid idea. No resolution is offered here:

https://journalnow.com/news/local/union-station-commuter-rail-service-senate-bill-520/article_0dc38092-d3d1-11ed-83e8-6bbec2f78548.html

[kermit]

Finally found a list of NC Corridors that NCDOT has expressed interest in developing to the FRA grant program (which funds feasibility studies). Pleased to see bi-directional service from Winston, the Charlotte-Winston route could shake some things loose for the Red Line in Charlotte. Other than that, I am a little surprised about Hamlet-Raleigh (I assumed this would end in Sanford, it makes sense NCDOT wants to maximize reach at this stage of the process). Interested to hear about ridership on a Morehead City train, might not be bad thanks to Havelock and New Bern.

Fayetteville, Greenville, Hamlet and Kings Mountain routes feel like they are teeing up commuter rail more than intercity service (and I think this is a good thing)

 

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FRA-2022-0031-0085/attachment_1.pdf

The SEHSR corridor (not using that label) was requested under separate cover:

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FRA-2022-0031-0062/attachment_1.pdf

Edited April 10, 2023 by kermit

[davidclt]

This is an interesting read about how Virginia handled CSX and speaks about NC's efforts: All Aboard: Passenger Rail Is Rolling Along the Atlantic Coast - Route Fifty (route-fifty.com)

[kermit]

Passenger rail in NC continues to break ridership records.

The first quarter of 23 saw 135,000 riders, this is 30% higher than pre-pandemic ridership (and 50% higher than 1q 22)

Virginia has also seen increased ridership, I believe NC/VA are the best performing portions of the Amtrak network at the moment.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/North-Carolina-passenger-rail-service-logs-record-ridership-in-Q1--69041

[jthomas]

38 minutes ago, kermit said:

Passenger rail in NC continues to break ridership records.

The first quarter of 23 saw 135,000 riders, this is 30% higher than pre-pandemic ridership (and 50% higher than 1q 22)

Virginia has also seen increased ridership, I believe NC/VA are the best performing portions of the Amtrak network at the moment.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/North-Carolina-passenger-rail-service-logs-record-ridership-in-Q1--69041

Should continue to grow with the additional Piedmont frequency starting this year. Has anything been published re: start date and timetable for that? I'm curious to see where the new train slots into the existing scheduling.

[kermit]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:24 PM, jthomas said:

Should continue to grow with the additional Piedmont frequency starting this year. Has anything been published re: start date and timetable for that? I'm curious to see where the new train slots into the existing scheduling.

NC By Train tweeted in early March that the new frequency would begin "this summer." The Tweet has since been edited  I didn't see the original tweet, but it was reported in several locations including the Piedmont's wikipedia page. A summer start date is consistent with multiple statements made by Jason Ortner (directer to NCDOT passenger rail) over the past few months.

I don't think the edited tweet is ominous, I would bet NCDOT wants this new train running ASAP.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

Don’t take this too seriously, its just a sketch schedule created by the Carolinas Association of Pax Trains folks (nice guys, but just organized foamers). There is no state DOT or Amtrak activity behind this. The ride from Columbia to Charlotte is a good bit longer than I had thought it would be (its a 1.5 hour drive). The route sketch from 485 to Gateway also suggests its a more direct route than it really would be (and it ignores an airport adjacent stop).

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by kermit

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Carolinian and Piedmont in the top 10 rail routes in US.... by ridership?

https://www.thetravel.com/busiest-amtrak-routes-in-the-us-ranked-by-popularity/#northeast-regional

[kermit]

According to a CAPT email the new Piedmont frequency begins on July 10.

the new schedule adds a noon departure from Raleigh (and all other times remain the same Southbound).

Northbound the 3pm and 7 pm departure are annulled.   New northbound departures of existing and new frequency afternoon/evening trains will be 2:00 pm , 5:45 pm, and 7:45 pm.  10:30 am departure remains unchanged. 
 

Edit: News and Observer article on this five days later (no new information): https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article275554766.html

Edited May 19, 2023 by kermit

[jthomas]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

According to a CAPT email the new Piedmont frequency begins on July 10.

the new schedule adds a noon departure from Raleigh (and all other times remain the same Southbound).

Northbound the 3pm and 7 pm departure are annulled.   New northbound departures of existing and new frequency afternoon/evening trains will be 2:00 pm , 5:45 pm, and 7:45 pm.  10:30 am departure remains unchanged. 

This is exciting, but also a little disappointing in a way, since it is the last planned service increase for a long time. Supposedly once the Long Bridge project in DC is complete, we will get 4x/day new trains to the Northeast, but that is probably a decade away.

I would love to see NCDOT add late-night (like 10:45ish) departures from both Charlotte and Raleigh. These trains could short-turn in Greensboro (roughly the midpoint of the route), with an arrival shortly after midnight, and have an early-morning (6:00-6:30) departure to return to the endpoints. As a Greensboro resident, this would unlock a lot of trip possibilities - I could take the train back from an evening event/game in either city, or arrive early enough for a full work day. I'd be curious to see if this additional frequency could be done with the current number of trainsets. If so, all that would be needed is some minimal layover facility in Greensboro.

[jthomas]

Here is the new timetable effective July 10:

It's interesting that some of the trains will skip stops. I could see this morphing into more defined local and express services once the Lexington and Hillsborough stations come on line.

Also, looking at this timetable, there really is a glaring hole for a later departure from Raleigh. I make day trips there occasionally, and it is stressful to have the Carolinian as the last train home for the day - you never know if it will be on time or 2+ hours late.

[XRZ.ME]

Quote

The Carolinian has always run with Amfleet, and will be among the first trains to get Siemens-built Airo trainsets as a part of the large Amtrak order.

Quote

“We applied this year for an FRA federal-state partnership construction grant for the (17-mile) S-Line segment from Raleigh to Wake Forest, N.C. The goal is to develop serviceable sections that will allow extending Piedmont service north,” says Orthner, pointing out, “it is the most complicated segment where we have already received federally-matched grants for highway grade separation construction.”

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/special-report-on-amtrak-round-trips-north-carolina-to-add-another-piedmont-trip-in-july/

[kermit]

Not directly NC related but bear with me:

Illinois has been trying to get state-funded Chicago-Rockford (90 miles) intercity rail service going since 2008. Its been stalled for reasons that escape me. But, it looks like service will begin in "late 2027" and be operated by METRA (the Chicago commuter rail operator) rather than Amtrak. AFAIK this is the first modern example of a non-Amtrak operator for state-supported rail (Brightline Miami-Orlando is not state supported). While I don't have more confidence in METRA to run better trains than Amtrak, I will say this is an interesting precedent for NCDOT to think about, particularly w Raleigh - Wilmington and Salisbury-Asheville service looming on the horizon. Having more than one operator to choose from (Brightline? CATS (please God, NO!)? Go Triangle (seems like a leap but they should be operating commuter service shortly)?) should be good for intercity rail in NC. 

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/illinois-chooses-metra-to-operate-chicago-rockford-service/  

Edited July 7, 2023 by kermit

[jthomas]

In case anyone is interested - the High Speed Rail Alliance is doing a webinar on 7/28 at 1:00 with NCDOT's Jason Orthner, who will be giving an update on passenger rail developments in NC. Here is the registration link:

https://us06web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_r6uxF03oRTy04T6VS6_9PA#/registration?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=8de07726-ef0e-4d3f-803e-130d37b3edf2

Hopefully there is a UPer who can watch and give us a summary!

[kermit]

I believe this is a map from the upcoming Jason Ortner presentation. Its a bit  more revealing that it first appears. I would interpret the dashed green (thruway bus) as routes that are on the back burner / unlikely to become rail (barring massive federal policy change). Columbia is (logically) in this category (to connect to the Carolinian I assume), its also interesting to see Winston to Statesville in this category.  Dashed orange (study routes) have more potential. I am surprised that a) the map says they do not plan to study rail to Winston (this contradicts an NCDOT memo posted above - perhaps a map error?); b) they have still not selected the preferred Raleigh to Wilmington route (given CSX's disinterest in the tracks south of Goldsboro (half have been abandoned and purchased by NCDOT) I would have thought that route would have won out over Fayetteville long ago).

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

I pay pretty close attention to rail things in NC but I got surprised today. Asheville has "rail transit" (of sorts). The Craggy Mountain Line mostly runs along the river on a (mostly) disused industrial spur between I-26/240 and Beaverdam creek (Craggy Dam area)

Its just a tourist trolley, but I was pretty surprised to see it as I was passing through. This is how the Blue Line in Charlotte got started.

https://craggymountainline.com/

Edited July 28, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

Jason Orthner presentation to the High Speed Rail Alliance today on NC route development (hat tip to Jthomas):

[a bit more info on Gateway station and routes around Charlotte (the P&N tracks are shown as a corridor opportunity) can be found in the Charlotte Gateway Station thread]

Couple of interesting notes on this map (which mostly shows new corridor grant submissions by NCDOT):

• Winston service to Charlotte on O-Line (important implications for Red Line developmnent in Charlotte)
• Map suggests that Wilmington service will be via Goldsboro and not Fayettville

Other discussions:

• Completion date given for Gateway Station: "2026-2027"
• The FRA has been involved in ensuring that sufficient capacity exists at Gateway station to allow for an interface with Georgia HSR to Atlanta.
• late 2026 early 2027 planned introduction of new equipment (Siemens Airo) on the Carolinian and shortly after than on the Piedmont.
• NCDOT is very pleased w scheduling and NS interfacing since the new frequency was introduced (its only been two weeks but he indicated that things are running smoothly)
• S-Line regional rail in the Triangle was non-noncommittally discussed as a possibility on that ROW (no mention of FRA decision on Triangle Commuter rail)
• Airport connections at Charlotte Douglas, RDU (probably just a shuttle), and PTI were mentioned briefly (they are "on our mind" but clearly not yet in the planning process)

Most of the presentation was about the S-Line project which was pitched as "an extension of the NEC to Charlotte"

• Petersburg to Downtown Richmond is planned as a second phase to the S-Line project (so expect a few years of Staples Mill as the only Richmond station)
• While electrification is not part of the current project, bridges and other overheads are being designed to accommodate cat wire in the future.
• Schedule given with a "subject to funding availability" disclaimer

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by kermit

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Winston really needs a stop! They even have a nicely renovated Union Station that needs to be used!

[kermit]

The WP reports that work on the new Potomac River bridge should begin this Fall. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/08/29/va-seeks-federal-money-work-set-start-new-potomac-rail-bridge/

VA is asking the FRA for an additional $800 million ish to complete the work by 2030. My read is everyone recognizes how critical this project is for rail expansion and it will get the funds.  This is a necessary step for NC service to DC and points north to increase.

[kermit]

The Wilmington Public Radio station has a long, but breathless, story on Raleigh-Wilmington passenger rail. One of the few statements I pulled out of it as new is the expected open date of "three to seven years" pending funding.

The article did confirm the Goldsboro route (rather than Fayetteville which creates more freight interference) and that the Wilmington would be at 3rd and Campbell (not a surprise based on existing tracks).

This was a story about the new route grant that was submitted, notification should be given on that in the Fall. NC applied for more new route grants than any other state apparently.

https://www.whqr.org/local/2023-09-06/not-just-a-dream-passenger-rail-could-be-coming-to-wilmington