Four Seasons Town Centre

[101_ce]

It pains me to say this, as I have loved that mall my whole life, but I can see something happening in the next five years that would lead to its closing, maybe an anchor pullout or an inability to keep the specialty stores.

I think that Torrid, Abercrombie & Fitch, and Victoria's Secret might move to Friendly eventually. If an anchor moved out I wonder which one it would be. Belk and JCPenney both have stores at Friendly, but Dillard's does not. I doubt Dillards would move because thats the only one in Greensboro. I can't really see Belk or JCPenney moving out either.

[beyonce245]

I think that Torrid, Abercrombie & Fitch, and Victoria's Secret might move to Friendly eventually. If an anchor moved out I wonder which one it would be. Belk and JCPenney both have stores at Friendly, but Dillard's does not. I doubt Dillards would move because thats the only one in Greensboro. I can't really see Belk or JCPenney moving out either.

Actually...JCP doesn't have a store at Friendly. It has Belk, Macy's and Sears. It also has a Victoria's Secret, so moving the one at Four Seasons is a non-starter.

IMO, Four Seasons started going downhill when Koury Corp. sold it to GGP. The demographics surrounding the mall have also changed over the years. Then of course, there were several murders there a few years ago.

All that said, as bad a situation people think Four Seasons may be in, I don't see it closing anytime soon. It's still a nice mall, one of the more nicer interiors, at least in NC, IMO. And Koury, which still owns the convention center next door, still has a major stake in keeping the mall open, even if Koury doesn't actually own the mall anymore.

[IknewIwasright]

Thats not good. At least Dillard's will not do that because it is the only Dillard's store in Greensboro.

If I'm not mistaken, Dillards ownes the space that they occupy in the mall. They would have to sale to move. They are the sole tenant with that setup.

[101_ce]

Actually...JCP doesn't have a store at Friendly. It has Belk, Macy's and Sears. It also has a Victoria's Secret, so moving the one at Four Seasons is a non-starter.

IMO, Four Seasons started going downhill when Koury Corp. sold it to GGP. The demographics surrounding the mall have also changed over the years. Then of course, there were several murders there a few years ago.

All that said, as bad a situation people think Four Seasons may be in, I don't see it closing anytime soon. It's still a nice mall, one of the more nicer interiors, at least in NC, IMO. And Koury, which still owns the convention center next door, still has a major stake in keeping the mall open, even if Koury doesn't actually own the mall anymore.

Oh I remember now. I was not sure if Victoria's Secret was at Friendly or not. I can't see Abercrombie & Fitch and abercrombie (and a few others) staying much longer. Unless things do not get worse, some more stores may move to Friendly also.

[StevenRocks]

To say the least, the situation at Four Seasons is complicated. Half of what's left at that mall is killing it slowly, but if they dump those tenants out, who will fill the spaces in this economy?

I think if an anchor falls soon, it'll be Belk. The issue with Belk becomes a competitive disadvantage in closing the Four Seasons store and leaving only the Friendly Center store. Belk Friendly Center is only 140,000 sf, which would leave Belk with the smallest footprint in town among department stores if there were no Belk Four Seasons. Plus Belk has no easy way to expand its Friendly Center store. Adding a level would be disruptive and wouldn't generate much customer traffic for the departments on that level. Expanding the footprint could get tricky as they're close to the street already and Rack Room et al are in the way on the mall side.

JCPenney has about 50,000 sf too much store at Four Seasons and could easily serve Greensboro from two locations. But which two? There aren't many choice retail spaces in town Penney's could move into without drastic reconfiguration. Same thing with Dillard's.

Koury has a vested interest in keeping the mall afloat to continue the viability of its adjacent property but so far has not intervened.

[DigitalSky]

Yeah It's really a matter of where JC Penney and Dillard's would re-locate in Greensboro... I know there were reports of a center like Alamance Crossing be built at South Elm-Eugene/I-40 (Britt Way Commons) but I doubt that will happen now.

[beyonce245]

The Biz Journal reports that Simon Property Group has hired outside consultants to examine possible acquisitions from General Growth Properties, which owns Four Seasons. What do you all think is the likelihood of Simon acquiring Four Seasons?

The two major properties GGP owns in NC are Four Seasons and Southpoint in Durham. But because GGP is in bankruptcy protection and not liquidation, the company will probably try to hold on to Southpoint, especially if the creditors use GGP's portfolio to secure its debts.

I think Four Seasons can still be a great mall. There are still enough mainstream retail tenants for a turnaround to happen. Plus it has great interstate visibility, and I think, untapped potential with CBL controlling every other major mall in the region. But it would take a company like Simon to make it work. I wouldn't mind seeing Simon enter into an agreement with Koury to purchase the mall. The decline at Four Seasons didn't happen until Koury sold the mall. And because Koury still owns the convention center next door, it has a major financial stake in the mall, at least indirectly.

What say you?

[StevenRocks]

The likelihood of Simon acquiring what is pretty much the third or fourth most popular mall in the Triad is low, but not out of the question. There are still three relatively strong anchors at this point, and a decent amount of typical mall stores. The greater likelihood is a repurchase by Koury to shore up their investment in the Sheraton Four Seasons.

[beyonce245]

The likelihood of Simon acquiring what is pretty much the third or fourth most popular mall in the Triad is low, but not out of the question. There are still three relatively strong anchors at this point, and a decent amount of typical mall stores. The greater likelihood is a repurchase by Koury to shore up their investment in the Sheraton Four Seasons.

Just found this article from November last year. Koury exec Showfety said that they sold to GGP back in 2004 because "they were concerned CBL was gaining too much of a presence in the market." That would seem to indicate that Koury might step in to prevent at least CBL from attempting to purchase Four Seasons, although I don't know about another company, since higher rental rates might impact the convention center. I could see Koury taking minority ownership in Four Seasons in conjunction with another property group.

For companies like Simon or others, it might be a good pickup in a down real estate market. I't's probably valued less than the $161 million GGP paid in 2004, and occupancy is probably still in the high 90s, although I'd like see some of the stores get the boot.

[StevenRocks]

I can't see CBL buying Four Seasons at this point. They're focused on Alamance Crossing, Friendly Center and Hanes Mall of late, with Oak Hollow Mall suffering for lack of interest and Randolph Mall holding its own.

[gsoboi27]

The likelihood of Simon acquiring what is pretty much the third or fourth most popular mall in the Triad is low, but not out of the question. There are still three relatively strong anchors at this point, and a decent amount of typical mall stores. The greater likelihood is a repurchase by Koury to shore up their investment in the Sheraton Four Seasons.

The likelihood is probably not as low as you think

http://www.news-reco..._billion_buyout

Hopefully this happens for the sake of Four Seasons

[StevenRocks]

Any updates on Four Seasons?

[cityboi]

I heard there were a few new stores that opened, can't think of the name. But thats about it. I would like to see the mall expand but unfortunately indoor malls are becoming more and more obsolete because of the new outdoor lifestyle centers like the Shops at Friendly. One way the mall could expand is by using some of the parking lot to create an outdoor lifestyle section that leads into the mall, much like the Southpoint mall in Durham where it is a hybrid outdoor/indoor mall.

The outdoor lifestyle wing could connect the mall with the Koury Convention Center.

Durham Southpoint mall

[StevenRocks]

The original plan Koury had was to connect the mall and convention center. That plan included an enclosed portion and two new department stores, but it never got off the ground. I don't see them adding on significantly unless they landed a killer tenant. With most of the desirable tenants already at Friendly or on Wendover, that kind of store is hard to come by right now.

I don't see malls as obsolete. They're out of fashion, as places like Friendly were uncool thirty years ago when malls were hot. The pendulum swings one way or the other every few years.

[cityboi]

The original plan Koury had was to connect the mall and convention center. That plan included an enclosed portion and two new department stores, but it never got off the ground. I don't see them adding on significantly unless they landed a killer tenant. With most of the desirable tenants already at Friendly or on Wendover, that kind of store is hard to come by right now.

I don't see malls as obsolete. They're out of fashion, as places like Friendly were uncool thirty years ago when malls were hot. The pendulum swings one way or the other every few years.

That being said it may be a long time before We see a lot of new retail at Four Seasons any way due to the economy. If Greensboro ever lands a killer tenant like Saks Fifth Ave, the store will likely be built at Friendly Center and not Four Seasons. I just don't see a major upscale retail anchor coming to Four Seasons but I could be wrong. I think in 10 or 15 years its possible Greensboro could get a Saks Fifth Avenue. We have already started taking baby steps in landing upscale retail stores, Brooks Brothers being the first. How soon we get a store like Saks Fifth Avenue, Neiman Marcus, Nordstom or Lord and Taylor depends on how fast the economy grows and how fast Greensboro grows over the next several years. It wasn't that long ago when Macy's was considered upscale. I remember saying a long time ago that one day Greensboro would get a Macy's. We did and in fact we have two of them. When we finally got Macy's it was no longer upscale and today its nothing more than another Belk or Dillards.

BTW I saw a model of the master plan for Four Seasons 20 years ago. It showed a 3-story retail wing connecting the entrance near JC Penny to the convention center. The enclosed mall connector to the Koury Convention Center had a restaurant over Koury Blvd. There were two new large parking decks (one big one on the Dillard's side. The original plans for the 28-story Koury hotel tower were very different. It was still triangular in shape but its architecture was more contemporary. It looked really glitzy (something you would see in Los Angeles or Las Vegas). The top of the building on the model had a slope and the building was almost entirely glass. The 3 corners of the tower had dark colored cylinders that were also sloped at the top. There was also another high-rise at the I-40/High Point Rd Interchange south of I-40. I guess Koury Corp had plans for an additional high-rise hotel to help support the "Holiday Inn Four Seasons"/Koury Convention Center. I wish I still had the picture of that model. When Joe Koury died so did the great visions of Koury Corp. Today's owners of Koury Corp are more worried about making money instead of doing great things for Greensboro. Im sure Joe Koury is turning over in his grave after Koury Corp sold Four Seasons Towne Center. If Joe Koury were still alive, that would not have happened. That mall was his baby. Now that Joe Koury is dead, I doubt we will ever see that major expansion at the Grandover Resort. The architectural drawing shows a much bigger Grandover Resort with 900 guest rooms. The addition called for an expanded hotel foot print four times the size of the current Grandover Resort. The rendering showed a pretty massive structure.

I'm actually surprised that the upscale Four Seasons Hotel chain hasn't sued Koury Corp because "Four Seasons" is included in the hotel name "Sheraton Four Seasons Hotel"

[DigitalSky]

How soon we get a store like Saks Fifth Avenue, Neiman Marcus, Nordstom or Lord and Taylor depends on how fast the economy grows and how fast Greensboro grows over the next several years. It wasn't that long ago when Macy's was considered upscale. I remember saying a long time ago that one day Greensboro would get a Macy's. We did and in fact we have two of them. When we finally got Macy's it was no longer upscale and today its nothing more than another Belk or Dillards.

I don't know that we'll see a Nordstrom, most likely not any of the others either -- but Von Maur is expanding to Atlanta and has announced its interest into expanding into Carolina markets, so I guess that is a likely possibility.. they apparently compete on the Nordstrom and Lord & Taylor level.

[cityboi]

I don't know that we'll see a Nordstrom, most likely not any of the others either -- but Von Maur is expanding to Atlanta and has announced its interest into expanding into Carolina markets, so I guess that is a likely possibility.. they apparently compete on the Nordstrom and Lord & Taylor level.

Friendly Center in Greensboro is just about ripe for a major upscale retail anchor. It has enough smaller upscale establishments to help support it (Brooks Brothers, Apple Store, PF Changs ect.) These establishments make Friendly Center a regional shopping destination because it has major stores and restaurants that are not found any where else n the Triad. Because Greensboro has a cluster of these upscale chains, the first major upscale retail anchor in the Triad will likely be at Friendly Center. Friendly Center is located in a very high income area. (Starmount, Irving Park, ect) The largest Harris Teeter in the country is located at Friendly Center and it has some pretty upscale amenities for a Harris Teeter. Friendly Center has two upscale anchor hotels (O'Henry and Proximity). I do think Greensboro would get a Nordstroms or Lord and Taylor before it would get a Neiman Marcus. Neiman Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue are at the top of the tier in my opinion. I don't even think Raleigh has a Neiman Marcus yet. I know Charlotte has one.

[NCMike1981]

^the Triangle currently has Nordstrom and Saks (had Lord & Taylor until corporate retrenchment) but has yet to get Neiman Marcus

I recall visiting Four Seasons in the '90s and thinking it was cool how the mall had 3 floors (isn't it the only 3 floor mall in NC?) and I think through the '90s it was a relatively solid midmarket/slightly upscale mall. I haven't been to the mall recently but the last time I visited the mall around 2005 I noticed alot more vacancies then 10 years earlier. I can't imagine this mall failing and a city the size of Greensboro not having a single traditional mall so I'm thinking something will happen to at least sustain the mall for a while longer. I just have no idea what.

[StevenRocks]

If not for the glut of retail on Wendover and the expansion of Friendly Center, the perception of crime, and the stinky economy, Four Seasons would be doing a lot better than it is. It survives on the strength of its anchors and the proximity to the interstate and a major convention hotel. It's not beyond a redevelopment, but I don't know if anyone will invest the capital needed to attract new stores, or even if there's enough demand for new stores in the market.

Four Seasons and Grandover were Joseph Koury's master projects and he would never have let either of them get trounced in the market. It's truly a shame to let a prize like this go to the wayside like GGP has done.

Concerning upscale anchors at either of the local malls, I say wait a little while. Out of all the key players in that market, Nordstrom has the best chance of landing in the Triad. Costco and Target do well here, and attract many of the same shopper demographic. Saks and Neiman Marcus are a little fashion forward for the market as it stands. They tend to attract a customer that isn't present in large numbers in the Triad. Never say never, but it's a long shot at best.

[cityboi]

It is true that Four Seasons is the only mall in NC with 3 levels. At one time it was the largest in the state until Hanes Mall in Winston expanded. Now Concord Mills is the largest. Four Seasons is actually a little more upscale, at least in appearance, than before. They remodeled and got rid of the late 80s/early 90s decor. Since Four Seasons is the only enclosed mall in Greensboro, I doubt it will ever close even with some crime perception. I also agree that the first upscale retail anchor in the Triad will likely be Nordstrom and most likely be built at Friendly Center. Greensboro isn't quite ready for a Neiman Marcus. Eventually over time The Triad will get one.

[DigitalSky]

It is true that Four Seasons is the only mall in NC with 3 levels. At one time it was the largest in the state until Hanes Mall in Winston expanded. Now Concord Mills is the largest. Four Seasons is actually a little more upscale, at least in appearance, than before. They remodeled and got rid of the late 80s/early 90s decor. Since Four Seasons is the only enclosed mall in Greensboro, I doubt it will ever close even with some crime perception. I also agree that the first upscale retail anchor in the Triad will likely be Nordstrom and most likely be built at Friendly Center. Greensboro isn't quite ready for a Neiman Marcus. Eventually over time The Triad will get one.

Concord Mills was *never* the largest mall in North Carolina. Its one level appearance makes it look as if it may be, but Concord Mills is no larger than 1.4 million square feet. Hanes Mall was the largest until SouthPark's expansion enabled that mall to surpass Hanes.

I'm not sure how far off Nordstrom is for the Triad. The Durham store was built as a store to serve both the Triangle and the Triad for the time being.

[Guest]

It is true that Four Seasons is the only mall in NC with 3 levels. At one time it was the largest in the state until Hanes Mall in Winston expanded. Now Concord Mills is the largest. Four Seasons is actually a little more upscale, at least in appearance, than before. They remodeled and got rid of the late 80s/early 90s decor. Since Four Seasons is the only enclosed mall in Greensboro, I doubt it will ever close even with some crime perception. I also agree that the first upscale retail anchor in the Triad will likely be Nordstrom and most likely be built at Friendly Center. Greensboro isn't quite ready for a Neiman Marcus. Eventually over time The Triad will get one.

Just so you know SouthPark Mall is the largest mall in NC tipping the scales at 1.8 million square feet. Conord Mills is only 1.4 million square feet. Hanes is also bigger than Concord mills at 1.5 million square feet.

[cityboi]

Just so you know SouthPark Mall is the largest mall in NC tipping the scales at 1.8 million square feet. Conord Mills is only 1.4 million square feet. Hanes is also bigger than Concord mills at 1.5 million square feet.

You are correct. a 2004 expansion made SouthPark the state's largest indoor mall.

[DigitalSky]

Interestingly, Concord Mills isn't even 3rd largest after SouthPark and Hanes, Concord Mills truly has only 1,334,000 square feet-- Crabtree Valley Mall and The Streets at Southpoint are slightly larger.

http://www.simon.com/About_Simon/leasing/LocalMall.aspx?id=1239

[StevenRocks]

I prefer Four Seasons' more compact layout to the sprawl of Concord Mills.