Wake Co. Justice Center

[Gard]

I like both the old buildings on the site AND the one that is proposed. Its a shame they can't save them and build this. As DPK pointed out, being a govt. building, it could be a whole lot worse than this! I would certainly consider this stylish by govt. standards.

[capitalapts]

Let's be honest here because there are a lot of negative comments. You guys aren't going to like anything that they put on this site because it's going to get rid of the existing buildings on said site. I'm not trying to be mean or accusatory here, but the proposed building really doesn't look that bad. It does have some artistic elements like the blue/green window shading, the different levels/setbacks so that it doesn't appear to be this massive block building on a corner, and the fluted elements that appear to run up the sides of the building on the upper setbacks.

This is a government building. It could be A LOT worse.

[cthayes75]

It's a government building. It's supposed to be functional, not a groundbreaking architectural specimen.

I'd rather they not use my tax dollars on expensive and unnecessary architecture and engineering. This is the exact problem we have with building schools in Wake County -- too many 3 story atriums and not enough classrooms and chairs.

[dmccall]

Actually most of the recently built Wake County public schools are HIDEOUS blight that we will regret for at least 5 decades a piece. Southeast Raleigh is just awful. It is no wonder that Broughton students have so much spirit and pride for their school. I put together the BHS class of 87 reunion and it was like turning on a light switch. Swarms of help and tons of turnout. I firmly believe the pride that was put into the school's architecture has recycled across many generations.

The problem is that these new schools could have looked great for the same about of money. They are using hideous brick and window choices that don't cost any less than, say, the 1991 expansion of Broughton. I hear absolutely no complaints about the 1991 expansion, still. In fact, it covered up the horrible 1950's expansion which used peach-colored brick.

[dand65]

Hey, The County is holding public information sessions where you can provide feedback to the design team on a host of issues. They are being held throughout the county the next two weeks, check this link. Thsi is your chance to influence the design. The commissioners made a trip to Charlotte last week as part of the transit tour and I think it opened some eyes.

http://www.wakegov.com/news/12927.htm

The public meetings will be held from 5 to 7 p.m.

They are scheduled for the following dates and locations:

February 11, 2008

Wake County Public Safety Center

330 S. Salisbury Street

Raleigh, NC 27601

February 12, 2008

Northern Regional Center (NRC)

350 Holding Avenue

Wake Forest, NC 27587

February 18, 2008

Knightdale Town Hall

950 Steeple Square Court

Knightdale, NC 27545

February 19, 2008

Wake County West Regional Library

4000 Louis Stephens Road

Cary, NC 27519

The Justice Center, with an estimated cost of $214 million, is one of five justice facilities outlined in the long-term Justice Facilities Master Plan. Other facilities in the plan include: the new 990-space Davie Street parking deck, renovations to the 40-year-old existing Wake County Courthouse, Phase II expansion of the Hammond Road Detention Center, and a new Law Enforcement Training Center in partnership with the City of Raleigh.

For more information about Wake County's Justice Center, please visit www.wakegov.com/projects/justicecenter.

Personally my biggest concern is the lack of active edges along Martin and Salisbury Streets. A spattering of retail or services here would go a long way to connecting the Moore and Nash Squares and south to the Convention Center.

[Spatula]

They could've easily fit this on the block without destroying the historic structures. Otherwise I don't have many complaints. The building is quite tasteful compared to the two monolithic boxes it's next to.

Some people are too picky. They expect every new project to be the next Pelli or Liebeskind masterpiece. As great as that would be, it's unrealistic. For a county building, this is high architecture. If it can be improved before construction starts, that's great, but it's nothing to lose sleep over if it's not.

I'm curious if this will totally replace the old courthouse, because if it can, that might be a good candidate for renovation/demolition. It's a pretty ugly brutalist structure that I wouldn't miss, and it's taking up valuable space for retail and business on Fayetteville street.

[ChiefJoJo]

The N&O has a story up on the center. FYI, the first design meeting--and the only one in Raleigh--is tonight downtown from 5-7pm over at the county jail:

February 11, 2008

Wake County Public Safety Center

330 S. Salisbury Street

Raleigh, NC 27601

[dmccall]

I'm curious if this will totally replace the old courthouse, because if it can, that might be a good candidate for renovation/demolition.

[ChiefJoJo]

It would make a lot more sense to put everything on one side of the street rather than have redundant facilities across the street from each other (see RDU).

I DO NOT like the idea of parking beneath the structure for this type of facility. As I've stated before, the terrorist risks are too high. I could imagine a highly volatile figure getting arrested here and then being a target.

[Captain Awesome]

It would make a lot more sense to put everything on one side of the street rather than have redundant facilities across the street from each other (see RDU).

[Gard]

It would make a lot more sense to put everything on one side of the street rather than have redundant facilities across the street from each other (see RDU).

I DO NOT like the idea of parking beneath the structure for this type of facility. As I've stated before, the terrorist risks are too high. I could imagine a highly volatile figure getting arrested here and then being a target.

[ChiefJoJo]

Stopped by the meeting for a minute or two:

• designs to be complete late 2008

• will pursue LEED design

• $214M cost

• 11 stories

• no ground floor retail: small (afterthought) internal "vendor" space near Nash Square/Martin St corner

• 2 stories underground parking

• 2 ped plazas--one facing Nash, other facing courthouse

• 2 tunnels, (1) courthouse under Salisbury, also (2) connecting Justice Ctr with jail (inmate transfer)

Also found out the "L bldg" is not U/C yet--only the Wake deck portion. L hopefully underway in May. That's all I got...

At this point, Lawyers and G-J are toast, unfortunately. If there was an effort a few years ago, they may have had a chance, but IMO there's too much momentum to stop this now. Frankly the county does really need the space, and there are some logical reasons to locate it in this spot. Not saying they couldn't be spared, but it's not bloody likely at this point.

[dmccall]

Jojo, I saw you on Channel 5 tonight, just for a millisecond. I got there at 6:30 and was hoping to see some UPers.

I posted my "exhaustive" review (I was exhausted at the end) at gogoraleigh.com, but in a nutshell, I don't think it's tragically flawed. I'd like to see two changes:

* "Pedestrian plaza" (ie smoker's hangout) on Salisbury st is unneeded. That space ought to be a food source.

* The corner facing Nash is not focused and doesn't adequately address the formal park. I'd like to see a more bold statement, even like the Dawson has, toward that corner. I don't think it would be that hard. Just bring the floors 2 and 3 facade almost to the corner and do a round, key shaped corner, much like 510 Glenwood.

[rooster8]

WRAL.com had this little image showing a slightly different look:

[jnzllwgr]

I don't know if this was already posted. If so sorry. It is a rendering of the new Justice Center building here.

[bj-26]

I like the WRAL image a little better. It seems to have a few small quirks added that makes it favor a courthouse/federal building than the other hotel/hospital look.

Personally, I think it might look pretty good on that corner.

And I'm sure the old courthouse will be completely refurbished.

[DPK]

Wishing for a thing doesn't make it so.

[only]

And before we all start accepting this thing because its "not bad for a government building" we should know what can be achieved with the right citizenry and leadership. This may be the other extreme, but I think it makes my point. Morphosis' Federal Courthouse in Eugene, OR: http://flickr.com/search/?q=eugene+courthouse

Oh, and Phil Stout needs to run for office. Verbal cake for the masses.

[askmisterbrown]

The proposed design for the New Justice center is not earth-shattering, but it's good. It's far superior to the current court house and to the current public safety center. In fact, it's probably the best county building other than the old county office building on Fayetteville St. that was built as Durham Life Insurance building. But a building of that quality will never be built again on this planet.

The San Francisco Federal building is breathtakingly ghastly. It couldn't be uglier if they painted a butt on it. Some people seem to think that everything in architecture has been done, so all we can do is try to make a building stand out by being as hideous and graceless as possible. It should not only be ugly in itself but should offend everything around it.

I don't worship at the altar of "different is good." Different might be good, different might be bad. Beautiful is always good, ugly is always bad.

The Eugene Court House is OK. But its cost is much higher per square foot than the proposed Wake County Justice Center, and it is less attractive. And it is a low-slung suburban-looking building; it would fit better in an office park than in a downtown.

The proposed Wake County Justice Center is clearly inspired by Art Moderne, but it is just as clearly not an original Art Moderne. The Art Moderne was a great style, but had a very short heyday before the cheap glass box took over. I am glad to see the Art Moderne explored further.

What is this talk of architraves, friezes & cornices? That is classical architecture stuff, not relevant here. But since you bring it up, they were used to wonderful effect in Ancient Athens, Classical Rome, Renaissance Venice, Baroque Vienna, Neoclassical Berlin, and Neoclassical Revival Washington. In each case, the past was copied, developed, & explored, and in each case masterpieces were created.

[only]

The San Francisco Federal building is breathtakingly ghastly. It couldn't be uglier if they painted a butt on it. Some people seem to think that everything in architecture has been done, so all we can do is try to make a building stand out by being as hideous and graceless as possible. It should not only be ugly in itself but should offend everything around it.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Has anyone seen Charlotte/Mecklenburgs Courthouse which opened a couple years ago. I think that is a nice looking look for this type of project.

[Jones_]

This building takes the most banal spec office stereotypes, slaps a courthouse tower on top of it, and then tries to pretty up the exterior to make it as inoffensive as possible to the general public. It's simply disgraceful.

[askmisterbrown]

Of course I would much rather save the Garland Jones Building and the Lawyers' Building, as I have stated on this thread.

But if we must have a new building, this is about the best we can expect. We have a very tight-fisted County Commission, and they are not going to shell out much above the bare minimum. Most of our new schools are made of concrete block, because Wake County gives less per pupil to its school system than any other urban county in the state. If our County Commission were prepared to spend the money it would take to build that San Francisco monstrosity, I would argue that the money should be spent on our schools instead. No, this proposed court house will be about the best building the County has actually built, sad to say. And even sadder to say, most other local government entities are just as cheap or cheaper than Wake County.

"Only," you make a number of good points about the qualities of the interior. I do not know the specifications of the two interiors, so I cannot compare. I do see that there are many large windows on the street fronts of the proposed Wake County Justice Center. I do not like metal detectors, but that can't be blamed on a building's architecture.

But you and I will never agree on this matter if you believe that AESTHETICS are IRRELEVANT. Although many people these days share your opinion, that has not been the case throughout most of our history. Aesthetics is what exalts humans above monkeys, along with justice, etc. A design that does not consider aesthetics is a failure. One of the most important FUNCTIONS of a building is to delight the eye.

[jnzllwgr]

The proposed design for the New Justice center is not earth-shattering, but it's good. It's far superior to the current court house and to the current public safety center. In fact, it's probably the best county building other than the old county office building on Fayetteville St. that was built as Durham Life Insurance building. But a building of that quality will never be built again on this planet.

The San Francisco Federal building is breathtakingly ghastly. It couldn't be uglier if they painted a butt on it. Some people seem to think that everything in architecture has been done, so all we can do is try to make a building stand out by being as hideous and graceless as possible. It should not only be ugly in itself but should offend everything around it.

I don't worship at the altar of "different is good." Different might be good, different might be bad. Beautiful is always good, ugly is always bad.

The Eugene Court House is OK. But its cost is much higher per square foot than the proposed Wake County Justice Center, and it is less attractive. And it is a low-slung suburban-looking building; it would fit better in an office park than in a downtown.

The proposed Wake County Justice Center is clearly inspired by Art Moderne, but it is just as clearly not an original Art Moderne. The Art Moderne was a great style, but had a very short heyday before the cheap glass box took over. I am glad to see the Art Moderne explored further.

What is this talk of architraves, friezes & cornices? That is classical architecture stuff, not relevant here. But since you bring it up, they were used to wonderful effect in Ancient Athens, Classical Rome, Renaissance Venice, Baroque Vienna, Neoclassical Berlin, and Neoclassical Revival Washington. In each case, the past was copied, developed, & explored, and in each case masterpieces were created.

[jnzllwgr]

I think you're missing the point there. Whether or not you like the SF Fed building on aesthetic grounds is really irrelevant. What's significant about the SF building is that it is a public building. Despite that fact, it's extremely efficient, it's a responsible neighbor to the street, and it responds carefully and thoughtfully to the workers that spend most of the day inside it. The offices are naturally lit. Employees sit close to operable windows. There are breakout spaces throughout the building, allowing employees comfortable places to congregate for informal meetings or to take a break from their desks. Somebody actually sat down and thought very carefully and comprehensively about what it would be like to live in that space, and what sorts of things could be done in order to enhance that experience.

It seems that you're judging the building solely on what sort of style has been applied to the exterior. Criticism of the proposed courthouse runs much deeper than that. Take a look at the office level floor plans. Imagine yourself a clerk in the Revenue Department. Your cube is in the third row down, six back from the window. Or maybe you work in the Probation office, where only the important folks get to see out the windows. There's a wall and four rows of cubes separating you from the outside world.

Government employees seem to have a reputation for being some of the most unhappy people around. When was the last time you ran into a friendly clerk at the DMV? And no wonder -- look at the horrible places they have to spend their entire day. If you had to work in that office, you'd be pissed off all the time too.

Here's the other thing. We've talked previously about Garland Jones. Let's say you go downtown tomorrow to get a marriage license. You pick those up on the first floor of Garland Jones. You can actually stand there on Martin Street, look through the window, and watch couples come in and pay for them. Standing in the lobby, you can watch people walking by on the street. You can see the cars coming and going. It's actually a great urban experience.

The new courthouse? Well, for starters, you've got to go through a metal detector before you even get in the building. Perhaps that's the real meaning of a "big city" experience in the 21st Century.

This building takes the most banal spec office stereotypes, slaps a courthouse tower on top of it, and then tries to pretty up the exterior to make it as inoffensive as possible to the general public. It's simply disgraceful.