Lansing Off Topic

[RustTown]

I was simply amazed that there was this much going on under the radar regionally, particularly Meridian Township teaming with Lansing on a non-binding, but symbolically important agreement, as well as Clinton and Eaton counties. I hope everyone at least sticks halfway to this. Many metropolitan areas across this state, in particular, would kill for this type of regional cooperation.

[hood]

I'm really likeing the way the cities and towntships around here are cooperating. It could turn out to be a very important asset for this region.

[hood]

Does anyone think that some of these new urbanist developments in the suburbs (i.e. The Beaumont and Gaslight Village) could be a product of this regional movenment, if so, I hope they continue the good work. There is talk of building a new phase of the development directly east of Holt High School, near where I live, and they are talking about some retail along Holt at Washington, I'm wondering if it will just be a plaza or something nice.

Also, there is a nice piece of land that Eyde owns, at Shiawassee & Larch, There were once two abandoned buildings on it but it is now an empty field. He is marketing it as ideal for an office/warehouse setup and I agree, there is even the option for a railroad spur, it also says that it could accomodate a complex of buildings. I'm thinking that eventually this will be an ideal sight for a biotech company, especially being so close to Neogen.

Land Map:

Former buildings:

[RustTown]

That land has been sitting vacant for years, and not surpringly, it is owned by the Eyde's. Go figure. They are probably asking and arm an a leg for it, and it looks almost as bad as it did with the vacant building. I remember when the building was still in use, in fact. Now, the site is used as temporary parking for Lugnuts games. The Larch/Cedar Corridor is one that I would love to see become a revitalized warehouse district with retail and residential wherever it can fit in.

BTW, I was just taking a drive to day to survey developments going on across the city and was surprised with how busy downtown was on a Sunday afternoon. Not even two years ago I would have been able to go down there are not see a soul. There was a convention going on at the Lansing Center, but most of the people downtown looked to be Cooley students. It really looks like the residential options are finally paying off, and there is only more to come.

[hood]

One thing about that land is that it includes athat deep stretch of land that goes along the railroad tracks.

I haven't walked around downtown since silverbells, I'm gonna have to check it out when it gets warm to see for myself. Any idea on whats going on with the ground floor of Arbaugh, its been studded out for awhile but it seems they just stopped on it.

[RustTown]

Yeah, the land goes far to the north all the way behind the VOA shelter. At one time, before the building on the corner was demolished, this land was a "tent city" if you remember. The homeless used to camp out back. It was a very interesting site to say the least.

As for the Arbaugh, they are stilling waiting for businesses. I think it has space for three businesses, and only one is committed, and it's one of the businesses that worked on the renovation of the building.

Right across the street in the former Marshall Music Building, though, will be the new home of the Greenhouse Bistro (http://www.greenhousebistro.net/) that's currently located on the second floor of the Bancroft Flowers Building a couple of blocks east of Sparrow. It's supposed to be moving in any time. Unfortunately, Capitol Fur has moved out just a storefront or two to the south. Hopefully, something will fill their place.

Also, the building directly adjacent to the north of the Ranney Building downtown has been COMPLETELY gutted. I mean, they removed the entire front of the building leaving a gapping hole. This is a project by Diamonds in the Rough, as well. They've also put up scaffolding at the Ranney that covers the sidewalk. I'll have to get a pic.

Lastly, the Printer's Row is really coming along. They are quite visible even when driving up Washington.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Lmichigan

[RustTown]

Since this is off topic, I finally got around to uploading the LSJ clipping of what was originally proposed at Shiawassee and Grand a few years back. Unfortunately, the new proposal is something I hear it much less spectacular. I hope we here some more about this this year:

[hood]

Since this is off topic, I finally got around to uploading the LSJ clipping of what was originally proposed at Shiawassee and Grand a few years back. Unfortunately, the new proposal is something I hear it much less spectacular. I hope we here some more about this this year:

Thanks for posting that, I've been trying to remember that rendering for awhile.

I expect this plan to be re instated as a building of that size, with the housing market improving and the city likely to become more picky about riverfront development I don't expect the smaller plan to be allowed to go through. I would be happy with that building being built though.

[hood]

It looks like the new bioport facility will be three to four floors and 50,000 sq. ft. The structure itself will cost $25 million, thats $500/sq. ft. for the structure, there will be another $25+ million for equipment and $21 million for licensing, all together $75 million.

[RustTown]

Source?

[hood]

The city council meeting, they had a rendering on a posterboard so I couldn't tell much about it, but it's pretty plain. The rest of the info was read off by Jefferies.

[RustTown]

I wouldn't expect a labortory building, and especially at this location to be flashy. If anything, it makes more since to keep it plain and unrecognizable.

BTW, did you watch the whole meeting? Damn, the regulars are getting down-right nasty and rabid. They need animal control in there. It makes me want to go there just to offer the other side. They were complaining about EVERYTHING tonight.

[hood]

I know, they are actually further discrediting themselves by offering such extreme and unfounded opinions. I usually think it is pretty funny to listen to them, but I was actually getting a little mad, it's always the same old thing. They attempt to shoot down anything and everything, and they actually think that a majority of people are behind them. I'm pretty sure that first, most people in Lansing don't care about what the council does and a majority of the people that do care what they do are the oppose the council regulars.

[RustTown]

There was only ONE opinion I agreed with tonight concerning tax breaks, and that was from a southside regular, who's a pretty smart guy and always handles himself relatively well. I forget his name, but all that he offered tonight was that the council quit acting like a door mat to the business community, and I completely agree. In fact, this goes for other municipalities in Michigan such as Detroit, Flint, Kazoo...that is that cities start demanding more of the business community when they look to build in a city, and yes, that means sometimes risking pushing a few developers away.

For instance, the city should have at least tried harder to get Gillespie to build the city a parking garage behind the stadium district. They did this with the Boji's, and I don't see why they didn't push harder on this one, especially seeing as how cities concede SO much in giving developers what they want (countless city abatements not to mention all of the state and federal abatements these developers already get).

Cities should start demanding more of developers in helping to rebuild the areas where these development are going, meaning helping pay for or building new sidewalks and other infastructure around the development.

And for key pieces of land (i.e. Stadium District Lot), the city should already have a stringent plan in place so as to weed out potentially bad developments. Luckily, the Stadium District is a fairly effective proposal, but the Boji Complex land, for instance, should have been held to higher standards (i.e. better architecture, nothing under 12 stories....).

As is always taught us, it never hurts to ask, so why is the city so incredibly afraid of offending developers as if they run the cities instead of the cities running them?

Lansing needs to do what Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor does, and that is demanding more bang for their buck. They should come from the prespective that developers should be thankful to the city for letting them develop these lands. That may be a little strong, but the city must come from a tougher stance if we want to get the best for Lansing.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Lmichigan

[fisher191]

Well I feel it necessary to weigh in on this one.

Everyone, including the city regulars need to face the facts, that these abatements and incentive programs are what is spurring this development wave, and until this first full wave passes of projects that receive the abatements and tax credits (of which are limited in their scope and duration). Rents and property values will be pushed up by this first wave, and when the tax credits and abatements are used up, then we all have to hope that enough progress has been made to continue the development and advancement.

The reality of our area is that the current rents and property values, are not high enough to spur the kind of development that we would all like to see, without these programs.

The Arbaugh is a HUGE example of this. That project used every tax abatement and program available, but that is what they are there for, without these programs the project never would have been done. I don't know if anyone remembers but Mr. Karp was one of the original developers of Old Town, with the Lumbertown loft project (turner street), which spurred so much other development.

Not to be overly crass, but, if it wasn't for the current development evironment, many developers I have talked to, including myself, would be parking our money elsewhere. These large projects, are large enough that located here, or some other market like, Jacksonville, Florida. Without these programs, the return on investment for a city and state that is operating with a deficit, has some of the lowest property values in the country, where the population's median income is lower than the national, and one of the highest unemployment rates in the country. Developers are taking huge risks right now, that maybe in the press and public they don't want to rain on a parade, but that's the way it is.

So with sunny pastures elsewhere, why stay, belief that you can have a hand in making Lansing better. Belief that things can be better. Tax and incentives that give a good return.

The council regulars love to ask for more from developers, and its so easy to just think that every project can come together and maybe they could have asked for a little more. Remember these people don't risk money, AND these tax abatements do run out and go to their full rates. These regulars are NEVER happy with anything.

[RustTown]

Actually, I'm for asking more. Council regulars are simply for killing development, period.

[hood]

I think there is a fine line between asking for more and killing development. Look at East Lansing, they often cross the line from politly asking for more and asking for way to much, it's something that, if done, should be carefully thought out.

[RustTown]

I agree.

With all of that said, it doesn't have to be personal. I feel that it is inately human that developers try and work the system as much as they can, and for the average citizen and its city government to demand much as it can of developers. It's two sides of a whole, IMO. IMO, central cities have concede far too much to many developers, and the balance is currently tilted their favor. Of course there are exceptions, but this is my general view on things at the moment. I think it's good for both sides to realize that you're not going to win everything that you want, and that concessions on both sides must be made.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Lmichigan

[jaredw]

But in a way, the two sides dont have to be fair at the same time. If the city concedes too much for a decade, then hopefully the next decade, the developers have to concede to get what they want due to the supply/demand.

Edited March 15, 2006 by jaredw

[LanCity]

For instance, the city should have at least tried harder to get Gillespie to build the city a parking garage behind the stadium district. They did this with the Boji's, and I don't see why they didn't push harder on this one, especially seeing as how cities concede SO much in giving developers what they want (countless city abatements not to mention all of the state and federal abatements these developers already get).

Cities should start demanding more of developers in helping to rebuild the areas where these development are going, meaning helping pay for or building new sidewalks and other infastructure around the development.

And for key pieces of land (i.e. Stadium District Lot), the city should already have a stringent plan in place so as to weed out potentially bad developments. Luckily, the Stadium District is a fairly effective proposal, but the Boji Complex land, for instance, should have been held to higher standards (i.e. better architecture, nothing under 12 stories....).

As is always taught us, it never hurts to ask, so why is the city so incredibly afraid of offending developers as if they run the cities instead of the cities running them?

Lansing needs to do what Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor does, and that is demanding more bang for their buck. They should come from the prespective that developers should be thankful to the city for letting them develop these lands. That may be a little strong, but the city must come from a tougher stance if we want to get the best for Lansing.

First off, what makes you think that gillespie would have gone ahead and agreed to buy the land from the city if they'd made him build a multimillion dollar structure that he would have a tough time getting his money back from? Especially considering there is NO example downtown to look at to say "yes this is undeniably going to be a success" he's taking a massive risk and frankly i'm glad the city incented the hell out of him to get it done.

Second, are you comparing Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor to Lansing? You honestly think that we can just go out there and say "nope, we're as good as them we're going to hold you to the same standards that they are" LANSING IS NOT THERE YET. As hard as a pill as that may be to swallow we're not at the point where we can pick and chose who we give abatements to because there is such massive competition for sites locating downtown. Now someday I'm sure we'd love to be at that point where we can afford to be selective because thats the situation, but face facts... we're just not there yet. New development is a downtown lansing because its been such a depressed area for so long, proof of this is by how much banks are willing to fork over for these developments... which is what tax credits are typically used for, leveraging more money from the banks.

So to just say that council has been a doormat to the business community is just ignorant. Bioport could have just as easily moved their stuff to maryland and had the tax abatement no questions asked, we should be so lucky that they're willing to put up with the verbal abuse from the community just to create jobs and increase investment.

[RustTown]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I most definitely disagree with you. I don't think it is unreasonable, as a city entity, to overreach knowing full-well that developers are going to reach just as far if not farther. Asking a developer to fix up sidewalks and other infastructure around their development, regardless of whether the city is Gary of Phoenix, is not unreasonable. In fact, a city is not doing its job if it isn't out to get the best deal possible for its citizens.

I know I'm coming off as anti-development, here, but I'm simply trying to offer the viewpoint of where a city needs to stand firm, and when it needs to concede. If you're going to ask city residents to subsidize downtown development, you better be asking the developer, on the other end, to concede something, as well.

[hood]

I also agree that developers should be held responsible for basic infastructure, but asking them to finance things like parking structures is a liitle much. I don't think thats what the city had in mind with Stadium District, I think they intended to build the parking ramp along with the development, not through Gillespie, and the city has reserved the right to build a ramp on the site in the future. And as time goes on, the city will be able to become more and more demanding of new developments, this first round of developments will probably be the hardest on the city.

[GaryP]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I most definitely disagree with you. I don't think it is unreasonable, as a city entity, to overreach knowing full-well that developers are going to reach just as far if not farther. Asking a developer to fix up sidewalks and other infastructure around their development, regardless of whether the city is Gary of Phoenix, is not unreasonable. In fact, a city is not doing its job if it isn't out to get the best deal possible for its citizens.

I know I'm coming off as anti-development, here, but I'm simply trying to offer the viewpoint of where a city needs to stand firm, and when it needs to concede. If you're going to ask city residents to subsidize downtown development, you better be asking the developer, on the other end, to concede something, as well.

Often in GR the streetscape improvements are paid for by tax credits given by the DDA. The JW did it, Grooters is doing something similar, I'm pretty sure Tall House is planning on the same thing. To name a few.

[RustTown]

To get this back on something less controversial...

At the meeting, last night, the council also voted to begin taking the first steps in extending the River Trail southwards from Potter Park to Hawk Island Park. This is great to hear, as it is a quality of life issue. I hope they one day find a way to take the River Trail westward through the Moores River Drive area. That's going to be tricky, but it can be creatively done.

[LanCity]

To get this back on something less controversial...

At the meeting, last night, the council also voted to begin taking the first steps in extending the River Trail southwards from Potter Park to Hawk Island Park. This is great to hear, as it is a quality of life issue. I hope they one day find a way to take the River Trail westward through the Moores River Drive area. That's going to be tricky, but it can be creatively done.

Personally I'd like to see paths on both sides of the river from Michigan to north of grand river ave.