Lansing Off Topic

[hood]

Yeah, to me building and/or improving the river trail on the West side of the river between Shiwassee to Kalamazoo is far more important than extending it south to me.

[RustTown]

I'd definitely like to see both of those, as well, but for the moment, it is far easier to push it south where they can aquire land much more easily. Eventually, they hope to push it to Holt and connect it up with paths, there.

The problems they have with pushing it north from where it currently ends (and this would be true if they decided to go north on the westbank, as well) is that the property owners have already showed a front against it. The area to the north is mostly residential with a lot of backyards on the river, even some with boatlaunches. Many wrongly believe that it would bring crime to the area, so the city first has to sell riverfront property owners on the idea. The reason the trail is the way it is now is because most of the properties that the River Trial currently runs through were once dilapidate industrial properties, and not many residential properties.

[fisher191]

I think the biggest benefit comes through expansion on the Southside, there are more residents and the city and its residents get the most bang for their buck.

On the previous stream.... The first wave of development has not completed, when the second wave hits, which is when the grants and incentives will dry up, because they won't be needed, rents and property values will have gone up enough to warrant some really cool stuff. Then the city can get a little more gutsy in asking for things from developers.

[hood]

I think thats the point GR is at, I thought I heard someone mention that one project was denied brownfield funding at the state level. I would be interested to know if many projects in GR are still getting city tax abatements.

[fisher191]

To further illustrate the 'waves' of development.

Commercial rates in Lansing have been quite stagnant for a good many years. 70-125.00 per square foot, for various projects, thats for the end value. Construction costs run equal to that, therefore the need for abatements and incentives to overcome the low rates.

In areas like Royal Oak, some projects go for as high as 350.00 a square foot. The construction costs are much lower than that, therefore municipalities can ask developers to do more, and they can put in awesome premium features, unique architecture, and taller buildings.

Here in Lansing, you have to watch every penny, because the deals are so tight.

Its changing though......thankfully.

[hood]

Do you, or anyone else, hae some exapmples of how long this transition typically takes from the point where Lansing is at now. It seems to me that Lansing is nearing a threshold, where things will change dramatically relatively quickly.

[fisher191]

Every city is different...

The faster development takes hold, the quicker the grants dry up.

You could make an example of downtown Detroit. Several rounds of grants and abatements have been tried, and failed to turn the area around. The Super Bowl however, has seemed to really make it start to turn the corner, the area still needs incentives, but there is definetly a buzz down there, that was not there before. That buzz is here in Lansing too.

Economics plays pretty heavy in there too. If the economy is booming, then it happens faster.

For a residential example, look to the Westside neighborhood. 15 years ago, it was not very desirable. Some restoration minded folks moved in, and started the facelifts, then helped by booming real estate values and low interest rates, a great many more people jumped in. Now it is one of the top three areas of Lansing, as far as desirability goes. The property values have gotten high enough, that bargain hunters and renovators are looking to other areas, like the Moores Park Subdivision. People are still looking to the Westside neighborhood, but it is leveling out, as it has been transformed into an affluent neighborhood.

Old town is another example, up until last year, an owner could apply for 50k through LISC and Michigan Interfaith for gut job renovations. That money has dried up now, but John Sears used it to renovate a couple of places, my office building being one, and another REO town. The values of Old Town properties have come up enough, that the grants aren't completely necessary for the smaller properties. Preuss is moving into the old Jack's automotive, which is a large enough project, the incentives were needed.

[fisher191]

To further illustrate the Old Town example...

Richard Karp did the first gut job renovation on the 'Lumbertown Lofts' on Turner street (where the Banyan gallery is right now), the district was desolate when the project was started. The building was almost given to him, and there were TONS of incentives. This was back when you could spend 500k to renovate a building that might be worth 300k when completed.

Today, you can buy a property for 125-150k, throw 200k into it, and it will probably be worth 350-425k. With the values increased, more people undertake projects. The incentives 'primed the pump', and now they can step back and watch the tax base grow.

[RustTown]

I've always thought it would be cool to see the already relatively stable East Michigan Avenue taken to the next level with some low-rise residential infill on some of the small lots. I'm talking 3-5 story, narrow residential buildings with ground floor retail. With the growth of continued growth of Sparrow, I'd really like to see some good infill on Michigan Avenue from downtown all the way to to the freeway.

[fisher191]

I totally agree, I think Michigan avenue is kind of a disgrace. A couple of blocks are fine, but there are so many sections that are pretty bad.

Unfortunately the owners are asking way to much for their crappy houses.

That would be a great area for some incentive monies. The city put in the lighting along the way, no if they could just press the envelope and maybe tie the money to some design standards.

That section with the City Pulse, the Green Door, and Emil's makes for a natural starting point.

I have a lot of houses over there, I would really welcome the facelift, it would push values up a little more.

[RustTown]

I don't agree that any parts of the avenue are "crappy," though there are quite a few sections underuitlized. Unlike every other major road in the city, I don't recall their being ANY abandoned properties, if even the retail vacancy is rather high on the east end of the district at the moment. There are very few blighted properties, as well. The only really bad properties I can think of are two giant houses-converted-apartment structures next door to the House of Kabobs that probably need to be torn down.

It could be such and awesome avenue with lots of potential. It already has the basic building blocks in place: on-street parking, tree-lines, slow-moving, historic lighting which made a huge difference, streets and curbs are in good shape, ample street scapping, never trash-strewn...It would make for an awesome avenue and front door.

Edited March 17, 2006 by Lmichigan

[hood]

I don't really agree with doing anything special on Michigan any further east than Penn, I would actually like to see development not go more than a block east of Larch, except maybe some medical/biotech stuff. I really don't think that these neighborhoods could justify the kinds of values or density needed to support 3-5 story housing, nor would I want it there, I would much rather see those low rise infill projects in the Cherry hill neighborhood and/or between downtown and Old Town. Also, the neighborhoods south of Michigan are not in very good shape, some lye in flood plains and many houses are beyond reasonable repair, although North of Michigan remains some of the best preserved (both physically and financially) old houses around.

As for Old Town, my mom lived on Center St. in the 70's and 80's, she recalls when Old Town was a haven for crime, much worse than anything currently in Lansing, she said many buildings were abandoned and there were many trashy bars and stuff. From my understanding Old Town remained that way until the early nineties.

[jaredw]

If you are ever interested in projects going on at MSU....

I want to let everyone know about a MSU website that has project details about different construction on campus. The website is http://construction.msu.edu

Let me know what you think of it.

[hood]

I found this language today in the agenda for the upcoming council meeting: "Tolling Agreement/River Street Triangle, L.L.C" it was under letters from the mayor. I thinking this means there is some movement on the triangle site now, between this and the info my dad got from work that they are calculating space requirements for a new MSP headquarters I'm expecting this thing to begin some real work sometime by this time next year.

Also, Lmich, any idea as to why Capitol is down to one lane today, WLNS said it is because of "building construction downtown," it sounds like its at the Farnum Building.

Edited March 17, 2006 by hood

[RustTown]

Tolling, as described to me by the former head of the Lansing EDC, is a way to keep a project alive, but also a way to keep it on the backburner meaning it's a little nudge, not a huge push towards getting it done. This is hopeful considering it looked like it had pretty much been cancelled just a year or two ago.

I'm not sure what it going on, but I remember something saying something about a building at 125 W. Allegan, which would be either the Farnum, or the small, two-story building directly to the east.

[hood]

I heard that too, but there is no 125 W Allegan on the property info page. I wonder if it's anything significant. I would think its something decent if it requires capitol to being reduced to one lane, if it's the Farnum Building it may be HVAC related, the state has been fixing and updating all their buildings mechanical systems lately.

[RustTown]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what they are doing. And yes, 125 W. Allegan isn't a main address, so it's not listed on the assessor website, but it would be directly across from the Boji Tower, so it is the Farnum.

[RustTown]

A cool photo I found, and was labeled "The first automobile parade," moving down Washington Square in 1903. I wonder if it was the first ever? Hmm...

[jaredw]

Hey LMich, I see you got an avatar. What's the picture of?

Edited March 20, 2006 by jaredw

[RustTown]

The Michigan Capitol rotunda, looking down at the glass-block floor.

[wolverine]

Just to let you guys know, I'm still moving some of the Lansing threads over from what was once the Mid-Michigan forum (now Flint). Most of them are old, but if you don't see them here, you'll find them there. I should have them all over here in the near future.

[ZachariahDaMan]

The same nazi group (National Socialist Movement) that held the rally in Toledo that sparked the riot is having another rally on April 22 in Lansing.

[hood]

I've heard, they are planning to keep the area within one block of the Capitol fenced off. The city is also holding some sort of dicersity rally or something away from their march. They figure the biggest insult to them would be if nobody showed up to hear their ideas, seems like a good idea to me.

[RustTown]

I'm kind of offended by what the city is doing, but it's really a difference of ideology. I believe in confronting hate, and them holding this alternative event pretty far from the site seems to say to me that city leaders don't trust the citizens not to riot. I realize the city is just trying to quell a riot (which wouldn't happen in Lansing, anyway, IMO. It's much different than Toledo in that regard), but I'm going to be down there if I can, if not to protest, to get pictures of this event.

Originally, the group wanted to march down Michigan Avenue, I believe, but out police chief fought that and won.

Edited March 24, 2006 by Lmichigan

[hood]

I think that if not strictly controlled there could easily be a riot, all it takes is a crowd of protestors and just 20 or so people to start to throw rocks and stuff and before you know it you have a significant portion of the "peacceful" protestors rioting. Also I think that the insult to the Nazi's of nobody showing up to there event would be far greater than protestors or riots. They want riots and protesting at there rallys, thats why they have them.