July 4th Riot

[mallguy]

Having lived in both NYC and the South, one thing Charlotte could learn from NYC is the value of much more assertive policing and a much larger police presence. Both seem to me to be effective in reducing crime and making law-abiding citizens feel safer. Never had a problem in years of living in NYC (even taking the A train through ENY- much more poverty-stricken than ECLT), while in uptown Charlotte (and even in suburban shopping centers) I am harrassed by panhandlers every now and then, and last night's repetition of last year's fiasco is a disgrace. The only policemen I see uptown are usually around the BofA Corporate Center, although there are some elsewhere from time to time. The panhandlers on North Tryon should be taken to homeless shelters, and if there aren't any publicly-run shelters, some should be built.

If this post is considered politically incorrect, so be it. Charlotte has too much crime and I don't see public officials taking a strong stance about it.

[scman473]

BTW, NY State does allow fireworks. All of these are perfectly legal there.

http://www.fireworksafety.com/laws.htm

It says here that no fireworks are allowed in New York State whatsoever, including sparklers. Sparklers would be under "novelty" fireworks or "safe and sane" fireworks.

[BobbyRobert]

I frequently hear from colleagues from 'up North' that CharMeck police are too passive and let stuff slide that would never happen 'up North'. Their suggestions that the police just 'crack some heads' ignores 40 years of cultural baggage in the South. While last night's events certainly suggest we need some changes in local law enforcement, making these changes is much more complicated than some poster's would have us believe.

[krazeeboi]

WBTV is milking this incident for all its worth. Can you blame them?

[reverbandwhiskey]

Well I was there riding my bike to and from the show, and was able to move quickly around uptown to witness alot of what happened.

After the fireworks display traffic exiting the stadium went down 6th st towards tyron. Within minutes hundreds of people started wandering up and down Tyron St. They would block the oncoming traffic, slowing the cars to a dead standstill for minutes at a time. In the 45 minutes I spent on the corner of Tyron and 6th watching, I saw NO police, at least 5 fights, people damaging cars, and dozens of people throwing fireworks into crowds of people, and inside of cars.

I could see the crowds getting much more agitated and around 10:30 we decided that it was time to leave for our own safety. We rode South down Tyron St hugging the double yellow line to avoid the hundreds of people causing various levels of mayhem on both sides of the street. I witnessed people damaging businesses, fighting, trashing the city, and throwing items at the police. We made it to Trade & Tyron and ended up in the middle of the Riot police. I asked them if we could continue down Tryon in order to escape the crowds of morons.

The officer said it was time for us to leave Uptown right now, because he could no longer guarantee our safety. Turning left onto Trade st we were faced with WALL to WALL people in the street, next to no lighting, and no real way out. Someone tried to grab my bike from me and someone else was trying to block my girlfriend from being able to keep moving, and it was all I could do to kick that person in the knee and sprint away on my bike using my right arm to shove people out of the way.

Things were getting very bad, very fast. We were able to sprint as far away from Tyron as possible and eventually made it home. In the end I would say that the police control over Uptown last ngiht was a complete disaster.

They needed to have a more comprehensive plan to funnel the crowds into wider spaces, then police those crowds after the show. BY 10:30 it appeared that all of the police had fallen back to one intersection, leaving the rest of Uptown unprotected from the masses of ghetto trash that decided to stay Uptown to cause trouble. The police were unable to quickly move car traffic from uptown parking garages or the football stadium. The police were not able to keep the streets safe for families to go home after the fireworks. The police were not proactive enough in the moments after the show to prevent a minority of stupid thugs from ruining it. There should have been more police and more paddy wagons in major intersections. More people should have been detained until a clear message was sent: You are not going to be able to break a single law tonight without paying the price.

These events show that our Police chief is simply not up to the task of policing major events. I think that unless the city can come up with a real solution to protect people from the throngs of thugs who ran rampant uptown then the fireworks show should be cancelled for next year. Sadly I will not attend again. I am going to go to a safer location where I can enjoy fireworks without having to fear for my family's safety.

[reverbandwhiskey]

I frequently hear from colleagues from 'up North' that CharMeck police are too passive and let stuff slide that would never happen 'up North'. Their suggestions that the police just 'crack some heads' ignores 40 years of cultural baggage in the South. While last night's events certainly suggest we need some changes in local law enforcement, making these changes is much more complicated than some poster's would have us believe.

I am sorry, but arguing that the police cannot be more aggressive because black peoples' feelings might be hurt is laughable. Would you be arguing the same thing if it had been you that was shot in the face? One's "cultural baggage" ends the second someone breaks a law. Race has nothing to do with it. People were breaking the law, and endangering innocent people. Should the police simply turn a blind eye because of the city's past racial problems?

[monsoon]

....

The officer said it was time for us to leave Uptown right now, because he could no longer guarantee our safety. Turning left onto Trade st we were faced with WALL to WALL people in the street, next to no lighting, and no real way out. Someone tried to grab my bike from me and someone else was trying to block my girlfriend from being able to keep moving, and it was all I could do to kick that person in the knee and sprint away on my bike using my right arm to shove people out of the way.

Things were getting very bad, very fast. We were able to sprint as far away from Tyron as possible and eventually made it home. In the end I would say that the police control over Uptown last ngiht was a complete disaster. ......

Wow! That is terrible. I am glad the two of you got out of there ok. As it turns out 5 people were shot in Charlotte that night apparently from the same community that made up much of this crowd. I agree with you 100% about what the police should do, but apparently isn't being done. Channel 18, which really is trying to play up there with the big boys, interviewed a bunch of people that simply said that 2 years in a row and they won't be back to a downtown event. This is a disaster.

[monsoon]

I wasn't sure what type of firework were thrown in the crowd. Today's paper said:

If you have other information which details the type & kind of fireworks, it would be nice to read, please send a link or point me to the source. Much appreciated!

Mayor Pat McCroy quoted in today's The Charlotte Observer. "Those weren't just fireworks, they were powerful, illegal fireworks."

There is a photo in today's paper of a poor woman pushing a baby cart trying to take cover and protect her baby as these powerful illegal fireworks sail over her head. There simply isn't any excuse that I am aware of that would justify this kind of behavior by these kids.

[voyager12]

Against my better judgment I watched local news last night. There was actually one worthwhile story though. Councilman Wallace Turner was interviewed and clearly stated that the only way to prevent future 4th of July disturbances is for the community to come together and address the causes behind the bad behavior. Until the economic, educational, and social injustices towards minorities in this town are addressed the anger will continue to fester and become increasingly disruptive.

[28202]

I walked up to N. Tryon after the fireworks, I viewed them in first ward, and it was an uncomfortable and worsening atmosphere. The crowd in first ward was diverse, delightful and respectful...

The crowd up on Tryon was not. The cars were arriving after the fireworks and the punks that were there were acting out as much as possible to get attention. Yes, thugs is an appropriate description. This should not be tolerated. So this type of gathering probably will occur somewhere... Uptown needs to aggressively make sure that is not the place. If you can behave in a manner that society can tolerate, welcome, if not, stay home.

Public events are about getting together. These participants don't get that or have no understanding of what civic responsibilities they need to have in a public or social environment.

[SmellyCat]

I am sorry, but arguing that the police cannot be more aggressive because black peoples' feelings might be hurt is laughable. Would you be arguing the same thing if it had been you that was shot in the face? One's "cultural baggage" ends the second someone breaks a law. Race has nothing to do with it. People were breaking the law, and endangering innocent people. Should the police simply turn a blind eye because of the city's past racial problems?

Unfortunately, the almost have to. Society has become so overly sensitized after what happened with Rodney King and the subsequent '92 L.A. riots. And videocameras are always running. Just one more reason why the police are so afraid to do anything that could be construed in the least bit as too aggressive, even when dealing with these pathetic thugs whose mission is to damage, pillage, intimidate and create mayhem.

On another note, did anyone see the mug shots of those arrested on the news? They sure didn't look like boyscouts and girlscouts to me....most looked like they were adults!

[lupitachica]

These events show that our Police chief is simply not up to the task of policing major events.

I tend to agree. I've been in much larger public events with people of all types & class that seemed (from what I viewed on the news) more organization and had less trouble w/o the need of police officers in riot gear. What was the estimated crowd? 25,000 - 30,000? Imo, there are better ways to monitor and control the crowd to prevent many of the problems from erupting in the first place. Failure to effectively police the crowd before & after made for an inability to hand the problems later. In the meantime, my cousins were met with hostility by stressed officers and as visitors to the city ready to spend money and trying to enjoy themselves, it left a bad taste in their mouths.

Imo, as long as the police are following the laws established by the government and rules as established by the department they should have no issue with their policing conduct being called into question.

[monsoon]

Well..... when people simply refuse to obey the law then this is the result. The fault is not with the police. It is with the thugs that caused the crime and the people who failed to raise them properly to respect other people and the community at large.

[SmellyCat]

In the meantime, my cousins were met with hostility by stressed officers and as visitors to the city ready to spend money and trying to enjoy themselves, it left a bad taste in their mouths.

As an uptown resident, let me be the first to apologize to your cousins. I really hope they'll give us another chance when there's not a melee going on. Perhaps the officers were a bit stressed and maybe even distracted due to the fighting and bottles, chunks of concrete, bricks and fireworks being thrown at them while your cousins were trying to enjoy themselves.

[voyager12]

There is a separate problem of cars "cruising" Tryon late on weekends. Basically blocking all traffic and driving back and forth all night blaring loud music. Atlanta's main drag of Peachtree Street got so horrible that you could not move at all. The police cracked down and the problem has greatly lessened. Although on a much smaller scale the town of Chapel Hill threw in the towel and cancelled Apple Chill permanently after this year's event. Not because there was an issue with the festival itself. The problem was crowds of people that stayed behind and had an unoffical After Chill which had causing worsening problems every year. This year even more shootings occurred right along Franklin St and that was the last straw. Charlotte should be able to cooperatively solve this problem without cancelling the event.

[lupitachica]

There have always been criminals. They exist. People shouldn't commit crimes..well duh! That's a given. Its obvious that some people do what they shouldn't. Now what? We have police for a reason and our tax dollars pay their salaries so that they can protect everyone from those who intend to cause us harm. How the police do their job must be considered when 2 years in a row the conclusion of an event with a relatively small number of people turns into - by one poster's description - chaos. I'm talking about what should be done to prevent future incidents so that those of us who want to enjoy the 4th of July Uptown can. That means figuring out ways to effectively police the event, control the crowds, and take preventative measures to stop problems before they start. Or should every post in this forum continue be a lament about the one thing that is out of our control - the fact that criminals exist.

for sake of clarity, my cousins left Uptown long before the troubles started and I didn't suggest otherwise.

[dubone]

Well..... when people simply refuse to obey the law then this is the result. The fault is not with the police. It is with the thugs that caused the crime and the people who failed to raise them properly to respect other people and the community at large.

I agree.

I'm surprised that we still hear about injustices being the cause of these things. What do you think those kids did to their teachers?

There is a culture of violence, disrepect, and anger. That culture creates a belief that such behavior is okay, and it has nothing to do with injustice.

I have no clue what the solution is, but it darn sure isn't abandoning uptown events. In fact, in my belief system, the only way to overcome such evil is to crowd a place with good.

[lupitachica]

Was there talk about injustices? I must have missed that in this thread.

If were going to talk about the larger issues of what causes crime then I'm sure societal issues can be debated - I didn't feel this was the place for that but it seems to be coming up quite a bit (and not on my part).

I thought this conversation was about the incidences on the 4th and what to do to make the 4th of July event safe for people to enjoy.

I have no clue what the solution is, but it darn sure isn't abandoning uptown events. In fact, in my belief system, the only way to overcome such evil is to crowd a place with good.

I agree 100% and I would think coming up with better tactics for ensuring overall safety would be at the top of the list in terms of what needs to be examined.

[cinco]

edit

[dubone]

Was there talk about injustices? I must have missed that in this thread.

Councilman Wallace Turner was interviewed and clearly stated that the only way to prevent future 4th of July disturbances is for the community to come together and address the causes behind the bad behavior. Until the economic, educational, and social injustices towards minorities in this town are addressed the anger will continue to fester and become increasingly disruptive.

To me, it is ashame that the city leaders, like Warren Turner, are saying that this is a result of injustices, as if such behavior is even an acceptable response to injustice even if it were to be still present.

All of us deal with unfair situations. In fact, what is more unfair than having one's neighborhood overrun by violent thugs?

[voyager12]

I talked about injustices. I can always be counted on to throw a liberal wet blanket on every topic Seriously,as a corollary to the 4th of July violence, there would not be as much anger and misbehavior if we worked together to dismantle the discrimination and disparity in education and opportunity for advancement for minority youth. The deck is stacked against them, they know it and so what is the alternative? Acting out in a bad way. Criminal behavior cannot be tolerated. Everyone agrees on that. The Observer editorial outlined several good reccomendations this morning including working with Uptown bars to shorten drinking hours on the 4th, better crowd control and metal detectors if need be.

[dubone]

What do you do with the kids in school who behave like this, with violence and hatred? It is easy to say "discrimination and disparity in education" by looking at the test results. But isn't it possible that these same kids that ruin uptown events ruin the educational opportunities for both themselves and their peers? In so many ways, the deck is stacked against them by their mean and irresponsible parents, and by themselves.

I guess those questions are a bit off topic, so you can just consider them rhetorical.

[SmellyCat]

What do you do with the kids in school who behave like this, with violence and hatred? It is easy to say "discrimination and disparity in education" by looking at the test results. But isn't it possible that these same kids that ruin uptown events ruin the educational opportunities for both themselves and their peers? In so many ways, the deck is stacked against them by their mean and irresponsible parents, and by themselves.

Tragically, many would simply blame the school system, the teachers, the administrators, etc. Just like some people on here blame the police for the actions on the 4th, instead of focusing on the culprits. At some point, people must hold themselves accountable for their own actions and the actions of their children instead of constantly looking for excuses or blaming others and society.

[cinco]

reverb, i am glad to hear that you and yours are alright. lupita, it sucks your cousins felt unwelcomed uptown. if this were a just world all the bad would eat the bad... but it isn't. it seems to me the 4th of july celebrations/disturbances are obviously getting out of hand. i agree with lupita about the police needing to re-evaluate their approach and setting up perimeter baracades would be a plus. i agree with dubone about not cancelling future events. i also think that we all know that racial tension is an underlining topic with this situation. in order for charlotte to make this and other events safe and enjoyable - this has to be talked about. otherwise tension and frustration will continue to rise year after year. i am not trying to bait a conversation but rather simply state what should be stated and i think the city leaders should have an open forum or some kind of dialogue.

[lupitachica]

Thank you Voyager for your levity. I personally don't think this is the forum to even go there re: social issues the role it plays on the crime we're seeing.

Cinco, thanks for choosing to acknowledge my cousins' experiences in an empathetic way. It does suck that the guys felt unwelcome Uptown but when they came back around the way, one of the neighbors hooked them up and they had a blast.

As far as what can be done that is tangible and more immediate, I have a few suggestions:

1. A larger police presence

2. officers on bikes & motorcycles roaming the crowd

3. loudspeaker announcements of when the area needs to be cleared to set the crowd's expectations ahead of time

4. barricading certain streets to only allow foot traffic

5. banning of bags and bottles at the event site

6. de-emphasizing the presence of riot geared police as (imo) it presents a hostile face unnecessarily and sets up an us vs them vibe.

7. monitoring crowd as they enter the area through various checkpoints to stop troublemakers w/ illegal contraband before they can cause problems

8. immediate & strict enforcement of public conduct requirements - which should happen at all events anyway.