July 4th Riot

[SmellyCat]

In anycase I don't think the pro-cul-de-sac folks really care.

I really think they do care, because they'll chronically use it as a symbol of why NOT to spend money uptown and on the light rail system that brings people there and instead use it to improve roads and highways in and near their subdivisions.

[monsoon]

I really think they do care, because they'll chronically use it as a symbol of why NOT to spend money uptown and on the light rail system that brings people there and instead use it to improve roads and highways in and near their subdivisions.

Of course, the vast majority of people, who voted for the transit tax, did not live downtown when it was passed (only 6000 residents there at the time).

[lupitachica]

This disturbance in uptown is interesting - I need to hear more about how it started & the efforts made to quell it. The news says that the problems occured at 8 & 9 and Tryon. Isn't there a police station at 7th & college?

My fiance was just talking about the availability of fireworks in the south. He just doesn't see the sense in allowing people to buy & use explosives at will whereas in NY this is completely illegal. From a law enforcement angle, I can't see how it helps in terms of crowd control.

It does seem as if the one incident that did happen Uptown occured long after the fireworks were over.

Instead of getting them out of town quickly afterwards, the focus should have been on keeping them out of town to begin with.

Atleast your honest. Interestingly enough I had fam & friends visiting the Charlotte area and some of the younger ones (college educated young men who've never been arrested or involved in any trouble) went uptown to enjoy the festivities. They came back later talking about being discouraged or outright not allowed in many of the bars/restaurants, feeling aggression from police & rudeness when asking questions, etc. It did not go well. They felt a lot of hostility and mentioned that they got a clear feeling of being unwelcome - particularly after the fireworks display ended. Thankfully, they left soon after and finished up their evening at a neighborhood barbeque. But none were surprised about the events that happened later including the clash w/ police. Btwn the knuckleheads, the open hostility, and the general discomfort, it seemed (to them as I wasn't there) like there was the potential for conflict. Sad to say that my young cousin said he wouldn't be interested in hanging out in that part of Charlotte again - apparently though some don't want him there (spending his hardearned money) anyway.

[monsoon]

My fiance was just talking about the availability of fireworks in the south. He just doesn't see the sense in allowing people to buy & use explosives at will whereas in NY this is completely illegal. From a law enforcement angle, I can't see how it helps in terms of crowd control.

Explosive fireworks are illegal in NC too. But they are not in SC and since Charlotte is right on the line, its fairly easy for people to go there and get them and bring them illegally back into Charlotte. Of course, it's illegal to shoot someone too, which doesn't seem to stop people from doing it in either Charlotte or NY.

BTW, my cousin used to own a fireworks stand in Myrtle Beach, and people from New York were some of his biggest customers.

[lupitachica]

BTW, my cousin used to own a fireworks stand in Myrtle Beach, and people from New York were some of his biggest customers.

Nyers also travel to the south to buy guns too. Its my understanding that any kind of fireworks, including firecrackers are illegal to use in NY (even on your private property). That doesn't mean they don't get used - drugs are illegal too but people get their hands on them - but you certainly can't walk into your grocery store and buy them ( a bag of fireworks). You certainly can't be seen with them in your possesion. I don't know the specifics of the kinds of products they're selling in Target, Bilo and Walmart but I've never see anything like that in a NYC store which is why my fiance remains continuously amazed at the size & type available in your local grocery.

My homegirl - an ENY street cop - said during her visit that she would not want to have to deal w/ that on top of everything else. Curious, what are the rules for fireworks possession in a public place in Charlotte? How is it illegal to buy fireworks in Charlotte yet they sell them everywhere I've seen? I'm assuming they are restricted by type. But if a cop sees you walking down the street w/ a string of firecrackers in Uptown can they take them from you?

I believe fireworks of all types are simply more socially acceptable & available here.

No thoughts/comments on the experience my visitors had in Uptown?

[monsoon]

I said explosive fireworks. NC does allow sparklers, and similar type non-explosive fireworks. That is what you see for sale in Charlotte. Yes these are dangerous too, IMO, but they pose a far less danger to crowds than bottle rockets, cherry bombs, firecrackers, and morters.

BTW, NY State does allow fireworks. All of these are perfectly legal there.

[Pillsbury]

I said explosive fireworks. NC does allow sparklers, and similar type non-explosive fireworks. That is what you see for sale in Charlotte. Yes these are dangerous too, IMO, but they pose a far less danger to crowds than bottle rockets, cherry bombs, firecrackers, and morters.

BTW, NY State does allow fireworks. All of these are perfectly legal there.

Same way in Georgia, everyone just heads to North Augusta to buy fireworks.

[lupitachica]

Interesting. So those big packages for sale in Target & Walmart are sparklers types only?

New York is one of only 5 states that ban all consumer fireworks. Fireworks - from sparklers to cherry bombs - are illegal in New York State. Mere possession or use of fireworks is a "violation" under New York's Penal Code, while the sale of fireworks can be class A or B misdemeanors; repeat offenses are class E felonies. Under New York State law, fireworks or dangerous fireworks are defined as any blank cartridge, blank cartridge pistol or toy cannon in which explosives are used. Sparklers, roman candles, bombs and skyrockets are examples.

Sparklers are not legal in NY, enforcement is sketchy at best but they are not legal to sell or have in your possesion.

[monsoon]

Interesting. So those big packages for sale in Target & Walmart are sparklers types only?

Yes they are. In any case the discussion of illegal firework usage in NY is irrelevant to the topic at hand here.

[lupitachica]

In any case the discussion of illegal firework usage in NY is irrelevant to the topic at hand here

hmm...you're a funny person monsoon.

Anyway, I brought in the legality issue (using NY as comparison cause that's what I know) because fireworks were supposedly thrown at officers last night. It would seem the availability & legality of these cases of very large "sparklers" might make things harder for law enforcement. This is why I ask the questions about what's permitted in public places because I'm not sure how I would feel (as an officer) seeing someone carrying huge "sparklers" that can burn hotter than 1000 degrees walking around during a public event. From a crowd management perspective it would make the job more difficult I would think (as does my police officer friend). Could an officer last night have stopped/arrested a person in the Uptown area if they saw them with fireworks? Could they have banned fireworks possesion in that area before the event then monitored the crowd for people who didn't comply long before the drinks had time to take affect?

[Bocephus]

let me just say I have lived in Charlotte for 2 years and love it and love uptown but after spending the 4th and new years downtown last year and seeing what was going on I doubt ill ever go back for those occasions.

I'm far from psychic but knew there would be trouble uptown so i didn't even bother I watched the show from the Dilworth Grille. With that said any other day you can see me uptown having fun and enjoying the city I love but for these two nights there are way to many unsupervised kids and thugs down there trying to start trouble that on any other day wouldn't be uptown. Iits just a shame little events like this can take away from the greatness of uptown.

[monsoon]

Could an officer last night have stopped/arrested a person in the Uptown area if they saw them with fireworks? Could they have banned fireworks possesion in that area before the event then monitored the crowd for people who didn't comply long before the drinks had time to take affect?

These questions are irrelevant as well as they were not throwing sparklers into the crowd. The firecrackers in question are not legal in North Carolina. If the police decided to strip search all the thugs prior to commiting any crimes I can see where there would be cries and implications of racism for having done so. The problem is not with the Police and the state law, its with the useless to society thugs that don't have anything better to do than to cause problems for the public at large.

[SmellyCat]

Nyers also travel to the south to buy guns too. Its my understanding that any kind of fireworks, including firecrackers are illegal to use in NY (even on your private property). That doesn't mean they don't get used - drugs are illegal too but people get their hands on them - but you certainly can't walk into your grocery store and buy them ( a bag of fireworks). You certainly can't be seen with them in your possesion. I don't know the specifics of the kinds of products they're selling in Target, Bilo and Walmart but I've never see anything like that in a NYC store which is why my fiance remains continuously amazed at the size & type available in your local grocery.

My homegirl - an ENY street cop - said during her visit that she would not want to have to deal w/ that on top of everything else. Curious, what are the rules for fireworks possession in a public place in Charlotte? How is it illegal to buy fireworks in Charlotte yet they sell them everywhere I've seen? I'm assuming they are restricted by type. But if a cop sees you walking down the street w/ a string of firecrackers in Uptown can they take them from you?

I believe fireworks of all types are simply more socially acceptable & available here.

Yet another horrible thing about living down here in the Carolinas/South versus New York. Thanks for pointing that out Lupita!! And this time you had the research assitance of your cousins, fiance and homegirl eny street cop (whatever that is).

[lupitachica]

These questions are irrelevant as well as they were not throwing sparklers into the crowd. The firecrackers in question are not legal in North Carolina.

I wasn't sure what type of firework were thrown in the crowd. Today's paper said:

Several small fires were set by fireworks thrown by members of the crowd, including a small blaze that caught the grass afire in front of St. Peter Episcopal Church on North Tryon.

If you have other information which details the type & kind of fireworks, it would be nice to read, please send a link or point me to the source. Much appreciated!

My questions, I thought were relevant as they pertained to controlling a crowd in an environment where fireworks have a larger visibility than what I'm used to and are readily accessible and sold at your local grocer in mass. The paper states

Police, some wearing riot gear, attempted to disperse a crowd of several hundred people that had gathered uptown. He said there had been complaints about people in the crowd fighting, throwing fireworks at one another, and overturning newspaper boxes.

What's the problem? I'm talking about crowd management during the 4th of July and that is extremely appropriate when you look at the subject title of the thread.

If the police decided to strip search all the thugs prior to commiting any crimes I can see where there would be cries and implications of racism for having done so.

Why? Thugs & criminals come in all races. Besides, I wasn't suggesting strip searchs. I said that the crowds could be monitored, similar to how they do in Times Square at New Years Eve. That monitoring would apply to everyone. Again, I use the NYC example because that's where I've had most of my experience and its an easy comparison for me. People compare Charlotte to other places in this forum all the time to make points or distinctions - often times unfavorably. Not sure why its an issue when I do so - particularly when I wasn't making an negative comparison in the first place.

Yet another horrible thing about living down here in the Carolinas/South versus New York. Thanks for pointing that out Lupita!! And this time you had the research assitance of your cousins, fiance and homegirl eny street cop (whatever that is).

You're attributing things to my words that I never said, suggested or implied. My fiance is shocked at the way fireworks are sold, he is not necessarily displeased. He thinks its great in terms of it being fun on the 4th. ENY stands for East New York btw. My homegirl (meaning my good friend if ya didn't know) is a cop there. I brought up her point because she actually thought that the ready access to fireworks (and the relatively less restrictive gun laws) made it harder for a cop out here. That's not a disrespect to Charlotte to mention.

I do believe some here have an inferiority complex and as a result are particularly defensive when it isn't warranted.

The problem is not with the Police and the state law, its with the useless to society thugs that don't have anything better to do than to cause problems for the public at large.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But this forum is a place for discussion which includes differing points on view, right? I can add my perspective too, right? As long as I don't break the forum rules and I don't believe I have.

It saddens me that the responses were about the accuracy of whether fireworks are legal in NY (they're not) yet no one took a moment to say " wow, I 'm sorry to hear your young cousins had that experience while they were in our fine city. Next time send them here or there where they can experience the hospitality and fun place that Charlotte is and can be". One a brighter note, the neighborhood barbeque that those boys attended was what made their trip. The hospitality of the neighbors who were strangers to them and the good food is what they will also take back to their hometowns in terms of what's good about Charlotte. I didn't post that part in this thread because I as talking about Uptown and those good vibes unfortunately didn't occur there.

[monsoon]

Why should anyone here have to apoligise to you or anyone else because your cousins reported they had a bad time in Charlotte? Forgetting that young people usually leave out "their part" in a disagreement, I assume if these people broke the law then your family would consider pursuing it, otherwise, if true, then it was just the actions of ignorant people. I have been treated as a stupid person in NY State simply because of my Southern accent yet I have a degree in electrical engineering.

If seeking an apology was your reason for posting it then you are really wasting our time.

[SmellyCat]

You're attributing things to my words that I never said, suggested or implied. My fiance is shocked at the way fireworks are sold, he is not necessarily displeased. He thinks its great in terms of it being fun on the 4th. ENY stands for East New York btw. My homegirl (meaning my good friend if ya didn't know) is a cop there. I brought up her point because she actually thought that the ready access to fireworks (and the relatively less restrictive gun laws) made it harder for a cop out here. That's not a disrespect to Charlotte to mention.

I do believe some here have an inferiority complex and as a result are particularly defensive when it isn't warranted.

1. I know what "homegirl" is, as I have seen plenty of hip hop and rap videos in my lifetime to know. Thanks for the clarification though.

2. If you are implying that I am one of those "some" that have an inferiority complex, I profoundly don't. I am from NYC as well, and still own a place there because I go back there a lot for work. I realize that there are plenty of problems and issues down here, just like in NY. However, you sadly seem to fit the profile of several other Northerners I know who moved down here and do nothing but complain about this and that and how much better it is up there, and how they should fix things here. Your previous posts are pretty much all negative, with an ever-so-subtle undercurrent about what you perceive as racist issues, many of your comments which I would call race "baiting" (my opinion). Quite frankly, you give a bad name to the multitude of NYers who have moved down south for a better life and freaking enjoy it here!

Question for you...and I'm being serious...who's forcing you to stay here? And if things where so bad here, why would you see such a mass in-flow of people into this region and outflow from NYC?

[jednc]

Wow...this has taken an interesting turn.

In theory I totally object to judging someone because of some group they neatly fit into. Anyone who came to uptown should have been welcomed and allowed to legally enjoy themselves. With that said...in practice it's a pretty easy thing to take out prior experiences on people who seem to fall into certain categories.

I hate to hear when anyone is not welcomed in this city. It's just not southern. At the same time, I do agree that we are only getting one side of the story.

As for the "Yankee go home" attitude; I'm thankful for all the newcomers. For years the south exported our population in search of better jobs and a better life. I see no reason not to welcome those from other places with the same goals. BUT...at the first hint of "here's how we did it back home", or "let me tell you what's wrong with this place", I'm ready to get out the map and point out the quickest way to 77 or 85 NORTH (in this case). Otherwise, I like the diversity that new people bring to the city!

[redjeep77]

Wow...this has taken an interesting turn.

In theory I totally object to judging someone because of some group they neatly fit into. Anyone who came to uptown should have been welcomed and allowed to legally enjoy themselves. With that said...in practice it's a pretty easy thing to take out prior experiences on people who seem to fall into certain categories.

I hate to hear when anyone is not welcomed in this city. It's just not southern. At the same time, I do agree that we are only getting one side of the story.

As for the "Yankee go home" attitude; I'm thankful for all the newcomers. For years the south exported our population in search of better jobs and a better life. I see no reason not to welcome those from other places with the same goals. BUT...at the first hint of "here's how we did it back home", or "let me tell you what's wrong with this place", I'm ready to get out the map and point out the quickest way to 77 or 85 NORTH (in this case). Otherwise, I like the diversity that new people bring to the city!

I agree, this isn't a communist country. nobody forced anyone to move to a city against their will. To quote a popular bumpersticker "We don't care how you do it up North"

[monsoon]

From watching Channel 36 the riot seems to be much worse this year. Police said a crowd of over 200 were throwing "large fireworks, rocks, bottles, bricks" and were intent on causing trouble. They also trashed the outdoor seating of a number of restaurants. Some of the photos were quite chilling.

[lupitachica]

I was suggesting an empathetic response and not a personal apology. I've seen posts like in that in this forum when others have mentioned negative experiences at the hand of "ignorant people" in this city. Of course I'm not owed that response. But I can believe its sad that it wasn't given.

This thread is entitled July 4th RIOT and is full of conversation about negative circumstances at the event. So I will speak on that. My cousins (not children, college educated working professional adults who are younger than me so no I'm not going to assume they are leaving out anything like some misbehaving teenagers) had a bad experience during the 4th of July in Uptown and their story seems appropriate for this thread. Their complaints that I'm bringing here were about what they perceived as hostile police and the unwelcoming bar scene while other posters found that roaming bands of thugs were their issue.

BUT...at the first hint of "here's how we did it back home", or "let me tell you what's wrong with this place", I'm ready to get out the map and point out the quickest way to 77 or 85 NORTH (in this case).

I feel you on that but at the same time, it might be good for the area to hear that kind of talk. Change is often not welcomed as is difference. I've had a ton of people both in NY and since moving here to Charlotte break it down on why they can't or couldn't stand NY. Imo, that's cool. Many times I had to say "you're right but I don't care" or "true" and leave it at that. Its given me insight on what wrong w/ NYC from an outsiders perspective. The point of getting the panties all up in a bunch over it, I'll never know. I know NY is a great city so I don't take it personally. My visitors have a lot of criticism for Charlotte when they come, I know what brought me here so why would I be offended, especially when a lot of what they 're saying is true - like it or not.

Anyway, I think changing policing tactics might help alleviate some of the problems occurring at the event. Unfortunately there will always be some trouble makers, its about dealing with them effectively while we work on whatever causes their creation. So to that end, perhaps they should enlarge the area in which cars are not allowed & make people walk. Perhaps strategically placed barricades with entry checkpoints for items normally allowed to the public in the area. Someone suggested limiting the access to Uptown to certain residents of Charlotte (they're entitled to that opinion). I don't agree with that solution but its an option.

I also do think there is an issue with a discord btwn the police and segments of Charlotte that should be discussed (people don't have to agree w/ this but I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking any forum rules by mentioning it). I agree that there is certainly a level of knucklehead behavior that is totally unacceptable and should not be tolerated. I also find that there is a hostility/aggressiveness from police that at times is unacceptable as well and frequently discussed in my home, in my church, my community by both newcomers and family/friends born & raised in Charlotte and/or NC. Perhaps that discussion belongs in a different thread and if so, then I will do that.

[monsoon]

Please feel free to start another topic on that subject (police vs parts of the community) if you like and lets keep this on the specific event.

[Mobuchu]

From watching Channel 36 the riot seems to be much worse this year. Police said a crowd of over 200 were throwing "large fireworks, rocks, bottles, bricks" and were intent on causing trouble. They also trashed the outdoor seating of a number of restaurants. Some of the photos were quite chilling.

Now thats a little dramatic. Iv'e watched many different videos from some of the local TV stations and did not see any "chilling photos". Everyone on here talks about the terrible news reporting of the local TV stations and calls them "tabloids". But when they have a negative story about uptown all of a sudden their stories are fact and quotable. So was it that bad? Or, were there 200 people near that intersection and only 2 dozen were fighting? Was everyone throwing these things or were a couple throwing firecrackers and 2 people threw 2 stones at police while being aressted? Dramatization.

I was at the square last year and aparently I was counted in the hundreds of unruly people rioting, even though I was just walking by. From what Iv'e heard the same dramatization is happening this year.

This is not to detract from the problem, because there is one. Someone recieved minor injuries from a gunshot in uptown, the rest of the gunshots talked about happend well outside of uptown and were not related at all. Fortunetly most of this happened around 3am and did not affect the party goers for the 4th.

I completely agree that the local news is nothing but tabloids and dramatics, this is just another instance.

[monsoon]

Now thats a little dramatic. Iv'e watched many different videos from some of the local TV stations and did not see any "chilling photos".

The video of the broadcast can be viewed here. While it is a matter of opinion, some of the photos shown of the the people attacking police and throwing items with the intent of harming people are quite chilling to me and would terrify me if I had been there in person.

[Durhamite]

I've been in riots and melees (VA Beach, Labor Day '89). The reporting should've been - oh by the way, a couple of assholes were arrested after the fire work show. This is sensationalism and typically uses one group of people to scare the hell out of another group of people (get my drift....). Based on those pictures, I've seen worst incidents in rival high school football games in eastern NC.

Cops with helmets, guns, sticks and shields compared to fireworks, rocks and bottles......doesn't quite add up. Maybe Queen City cops need WMDs next year. It seems like the police did a decent job....but these small incidents aren't exclusive to Charlotte. I think other cities just handle it, squash it and get on with it.

[monsoon]

A person was shot in the face and is lying in the hospital,, and the crowd involved 250 rioters. It's was much worse than a couple of assholes.