389 North (AKA Zoi House) | 41-Story Mixed-Use [Proposed]

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Hank, I’m trying to be nice to the soccer fanboys here. I totally agree with you, btw.

At least soccer is a growing sport. Baseball’s going the other way, especially in Florida. I think baseball will be fine in its strongholds but I’m not seeing it as a growth industry.

Baseball is still #2 on the list of the top ten most popular sports in America.

Soccer is at #5.

Orlando is not St Pete or Miami.

It could very well turn out to be successful here.

[orange87]

Looks like things might be going somewhere. Rays ownership has meet with Pat Williams several times, and they discussed splitting Rays games between St. Pete and Orlando. Williams has said he is not interested in having the Rays in Orlando part time. He wants all their home games to be played in Orlando. The Rays ownership and Williams are continuing to have discussions.

Is Orlando the future for the MLB’s Rays?

Article: https://www.news-journalonline.com/sports/20200108/is-orlando-future-for-mlbs-rays?fbclid=IwAR25mpH6NutX4YuDP_LuSpb40VrA7JQD46YODVUzF-mm0_b1srRYCfqquBA

[JFW657]

42 minutes ago, orange87 said:

Looks like things might be going somewhere. Rays ownership has meet with Pat Williams several times, and they discussed splitting Rays games between St. Pete and Orlando. Williams has said he is not interested in having the Rays in Orlando part time. He wants all their home games to be played in Orlando. The Rays ownership and Williams are continuing to have discussions.

Is Orlando the future for the MLB’s Rays?

Article: https://www.news-journalonline.com/sports/20200108/is-orlando-future-for-mlbs-rays?fbclid=IwAR25mpH6NutX4YuDP_LuSpb40VrA7JQD46YODVUzF-mm0_b1srRYCfqquBA

A possible compromise could involve using the stadium at the ESPN complex until the Rays are ready to commit to a full move here.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

I think part time in the interim is ok. Because depending on the attendance a case can be built one way or the other. If Orlando can prove good attendance in those games that opens the door in Favor. Strengthens our position.

[AndyPok1]

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but none of you seem to understand the economics of how sports franchises work.  All of the money in regards to stadiums is in premium seating and corporate loges.  There's 0 way to do host anything beyond a single exhibition game with the facilities we have.  

[orange87]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

A possible compromise could involve using the stadium at the ESPN complex until the Rays are ready to commit to a full move here.

Only one problem (and it's a big one). The ESPN Complex baseball stadium (Champion Stadium) while visually nicer and more modern than Tropicana Field, it only has a capacity of 7,500. Even with the Rays low attendance at Tropicana Field they averaged nearly 15,000 people per game. So they'd sell out every game, but lose lots of money because a team would go bankrupt only drawing 7,500 people per game. Plus, Champion Stadium is technically in Kissimmee, not Orlando.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

16 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but none of you seem to understand the economics of how sports franchises work.  All of the money in regards to stadiums is in premium seating and corporate loges.  There's 0 way to do host anything beyond a single exhibition game with the facilities we have.  

Please explain. Cure my ignorance. Pretty please.

[orange87]

9 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but none of you seem to understand the economics of how sports franchises work.  All of the money in regards to stadiums is in premium seating and corporate loges.  There's 0 way to do host anything beyond a single exhibition game with the facilities we have.  

Yep. There's a very long way to go in this process. But there at least seems to be a spark. We'll have to see what (if anything) happens.

[dcluley98]

He is saying that we don't have a stadium up to the standards for the Rays to play in. We would have to build one. And the stadium they proposed in Tampa was upwards of $1 Billion price tag. The Rays are not going to move here to play in WWOS stadium which would be like having them play in one of the lower capacity Minor League/Spring Training venues without the revenue necessary to even field a team. They are going to want a new stadium in a population center with a retractible roof luxury suites, restaurants and mixed-use around it, and other  force multipliers for development around it. 

I think some people here are quite naive in thinking that they will just play in a WWOS venue or a modified CWS and all will be well. They are going to be asking for a brand new stadium for  anywhere they end up going. The only reason that St. Pete gets away with keeping them is because the former ownership originally signed a ridiculously long-term lease and painted themselves in a corner.   

Its actually a lot like the Amway Center for the old O-rena. The O-rena was only 20 years old when they demolished it to build the modern Amway that could provide the team with the revenue streams such as luxury boxes,  restaurant/bar venues, adjacent land to be developed at a later date (still waiting, LOL) and corporate boxes/sponsorships as well as improved TV Broadcast ability/facilities. O-rena was perfectly fine to play basketball in, but the climate of Pro sports and the NBA revenue model  changed so rapidly during that time frame that we tore it down to give the local team a modern facility. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by dcluley98

[AndyPok1]

@dcluley98 said it better than I could have!  Thanks sir.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Thanks sir. But on the interim just to test out attendance couldn’t they play to prove a point. Afterwards a new stadium can justifiably be built.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, orange87 said:

Only one problem (and it's a big one). The ESPN Complex baseball stadium (Champion Stadium) while visually nicer and more modern than Tropicana Field, it only has a capacity of 7,500. Even with the Rays low attendance at Tropicana Field they averaged nearly 15,000 people per game. So they'd sell out every game, but lose lots of money because a team would go bankrupt only drawing 7,500 people per game. Plus, Champion Stadium is technically in Kissimmee, not Orlando.

Yeah, I was aware of the size problem, but the stadium has a lot of room, especially down the left field side, to put in new seating.

Wouldn't have to be too fancy and I would imagine some kind of arrangements could be made to share the cost.

 

[orange87]

18 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Yeah, I was aware of the size problem, but the stadium has a lot of room, especially down the left field side, to put in new seating.

Wouldn't have to be too fancy and I would imagine some kind of arrangements could be made to share the cost.

I was actually thinking that. It looks like if they build on all that green area on the left side they could probably double stadium capacity to around 14,000-16,000 which I think would be enough (barely). Maybe they could add some more seats on the roof of that building on the right side too.

[Uncommon]

4 hours ago, orange87 said:

I was actually thinking that. It looks like if they build on all that green area on the left side they could probably double stadium capacity to around 14,000-16,000 which I think would be enough (barely). Maybe they could add some more seats on the roof of that building on the right side too.

I don’t think this stadium is viable at all. I’m no expert by any stretch but I don’t see how seats could just be added to that green space. Also, that road just outside the stadium kinda looks like it renders this stadium minor league.

[orange87]

9 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I don’t think this stadium is viable at all. I’m no expert by any stretch but I don’t see how seats could just be added to that green space. Also, that road just outside the stadium kinda looks like it renders this stadium minor league.

We're talking about a temporary option for the Rays to split games with St. Pete. A permanent stadium would need 35,000+ capacity.

[JFW657]

47 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I don’t think this stadium is viable at all. I’m no expert by any stretch but I don’t see how seats could just be added to that green space. Also, that road just outside the stadium kinda looks like it renders this stadium minor league.

I imagine it would entail the use of some heavy equipment, an architect, an engineer, a general contractor and a crew of construction workers experienced in several of whichever trades and specialties that replacing a grass coveted berm with stadium seats requires.

Start with removing the grass and some dirt, pour some concrete foundations, then go from there.

Probably wouldn't need to go that high, either.

Also, that berm looks kind of like the stadium was designed with possible future expansion in mind.

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I imagine it would entail the use of some heavy equipment, an architect, an engineer, a general contractor and a crew of construction workers experienced in several of whichever trades and specialties that replacing a grass coveted berm with stadium seats requires.

Start with removing the grass and some dirt, pour some concrete foundations, then go from there.

Probably wouldn't need to go that high, either.

Also, that berm looks kind of like the stadium was designed with possible future expansion in mind.

So what you’re saying is you don’t know either. Got it.

[JFW657]

36 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

So what you’re saying is you don’t know either. Got it.

No, I didn't say anything of the sort.

I think it's pretty obvious that extra seating could be installed where that berm is because, like so many other potential building sites, and assuming there's nothing underneath it that can't be disturbed, it's just dirt with grass growing out of it.

The only real question is if would they elect to do so.

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

No, I didn't say anything of the sort.

I think it's pretty obvious that extra seating could be installed where that berm is because, like so many other potential building sites, and assuming there's nothing underneath it that can't be disturbed, it's just dirt with grass growing out of it.

The only real question is if would they elect to do so.

Oh it’s obvious? I’m sorry. Excuse the ignorance. The feasibility, ease, convenience, and benefit to Disney to expand was just a little lost on me. But feel free to save your condescending and off-putting remarks next time.

[spenser1058]

One reason Disney did not choose to keep the Braves is because amateur sports are much more lucrative to them. Given most objective studies over the years concur with that (attendance at games is overwhelmingly local except events like the World Series and local attendance in both St Pete AND Miami is among the worst in MLB), I see no reason Disney would want to  change that because their goal is heads in beds. The AAU does that - MLB did not.

It’s interesting to note Disney at one time owned both the California Angels (MLB) and the Mighty Ducks (NHL). They sold both as not consistent with their long-term plans.

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

7 hours ago, Uncommon said:

Oh it’s obvious? I’m sorry. Excuse the ignorance. The feasibility, ease, convenience, and benefit to Disney to expand was just a little lost on me. But feel free to save your condescending and off-putting remarks next time.

You misinterpreted my reply.

There was no "condescending and off-putting" intent associated with any response I've made to you on this subject.

Unless explaining why one disagrees with your position is what you consider condescending and off-putting.

10 hours ago, Uncommon said:

So what you’re saying is you don’t know either. Got it.

That ^ is an example of a condescending and off-putting remark. Got it?

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

One reason Disney did not choose to keep the Braves is because amateur sports are much more lucrative to them. Given most objective studies over the years concur with that (attendance at games is overwhelmingly local except events like the World Series and local attendance in both St Pete AND Miami is among the worst in MLB), I see no reason Disney would want to  change that because their goal is heads in beds. The AAU does that - MLB did not.

It’s interesting to note Disney at one time owned both the California Angels (MLB) and the Mighty Ducks (NHL). They sold both as not consistent with their long-term plans.

That could well be true, but it's still not outside the realm of possibility if the terms were right for Disney.

And keep in mind, we're talking about a temporary situation that would facilitate a part time, shared home field.

[Uncommon]

13 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I imagine it would entail the use of some heavy equipment, an architect, an engineer, a general contractor and a crew of construction workers experienced in several of whichever trades and specialties that replacing a grass coveted berm with stadium seats requires.

Start with removing the grass and some dirt, pour some concrete foundations, then go from there.

Probably wouldn't need to go that high, either.

Also, that berm looks kind of like the stadium was designed with possible future expansion in mind.

So you’re telling me this wasn’t meant to be condescending or off-putting? This comment is literally dripping in sarcasm and snark. Or maybe you thought you were being cute or funny. Instead you came off extremely immature.

I’m not going to go back and forth with you on this because frankly it’s boring. 

Got it?

[spenser1058]

Boys. Boys. Boys. The testosterone is flying faster this morning than at a Grindr reunion! Remember we’re all just one big happy family here at UP Orlando!

[JFW657]

10 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

So you’re telling me this wasn’t meant to be condescending or off-putting?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you.

10 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

This comment is literally dripping in sarcasm and snark. Or maybe you thought you were being cute or funny. Instead you came off extremely immature.

I’m not going to go back and forth with you on this because frankly it’s boring. 

Got it?

There is a difference between facetiousness and sarcasm.

Admittedly, I did think I was being a bit facetious, but then, many of my replies here tend to be that way and most people here understand that.

Certainly no harm was intended.

16 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I’m not going to go back and forth with you on this because frankly it’s boring. 

Got it?

Don't worry, I wasn't planning on dragging this out, because you're right about one thing... it's certainly boring.

[JFW657]

21 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Boys. Boys. Boys. The testosterone is flying faster this morning than at a Grindr reunion! Remember we’re all just one big happy family here at UP Orlando!

Grindr has reunions?

Who knew?

I wasn't even aware they had graduating classes.