Learning from Other Places

[KJHburg]

Rolled into El Paso TX which combined  its US population along with the huge city of Juarez Mexico across the river makes up a 3 state 2 country metropolitan area around 2.5 million very close to Charlotte's size.  However only about 1 million are on the US side of the border with the CMSA of El Paso Las Cruces NM.   Juarez is the biggest Mexican city on the border. 

Couple things I saw in this west Texas city of note.

1.  Both cities have AAA ballparks in our downtowns.  This is the home of the Chihauhaus a SD Padres affiliate. 

2. BRIO is their Bus Rapid Transit.  They run every 10 minutes along certain routes and there are ticket machines at each stop.  I am not sure why this is not an alternative for CATS  it sure is cheaper.  And I know the argument would be development wouldn't happen along the route but I don't know if I buy that is a fast growing city like Charlotte.  Nashville will have some BRT and Houston already does among other cities.   Plus every bus in El Paso is run on compressed natural gas! 

3. Their Union Station downtown behind ballpark. 

4. View of downtown and the city of Juarez in the background behind downtown EP. 

5.7. Photos of independent coffee shop in downtown El Paso and the 2nd floor has a deck.  Long line downstairs.  One of these could POP up anywhere uptown as a placeholder (think surface lots) and also in South End, Gold district NoDa and many other neighborhoods.  

6. the map of the NEW trolley system for El Paso  called SunMetro.  Testing now and slightly delayed sound familiar? http://www.sunmetro.net/streetcar  I like how it runs on separate streets from downtown to Univ. of Texas El Paso campus UTEP.  Plus major hospitals along that route outside of downtown.  You will be able to come across the border walk 3 blocks and hop on the streetcar up the hills.  (and this city is built on the side of a mountain.)  Many Mexicans have work visas to work in the USA and just walk over and then go to work in El Paso.  I feel like the loop their streetcar is making a good idea and since runs up and down one way streets doesn't block as much traffic.  Plus they are restoring some of their old streetcars.  

7.  2 directional bike lane on the one way street up the hill along the streetcar line heading up to UTEP.  

More Texas to come including my favorite TX city San Antonio!    Hey my photos loaded differently than my captions but I am sure you can figure it out. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by KJHburg

[asthasr]

On 4/7/2018 at 8:41 PM, KJHburg said:

2. BRIO is their Bus Rapid Transit.  They run every 10 minutes along certain routes and there are ticket machines at each stop.  I am not sure why this is not an alternative for CATS  it sure is cheaper.  And I know the argument would be development wouldn't happen along the route but I don't know if I buy that is a fast growing city like Charlotte.  Nashville will have some BRT and Houston already does among other cities.   Plus every bus in El Paso is run on compressed natural gas! 

Bus rapid transit is interesting, but has some serious drawbacks. First, if you're running true BRT (a dedicated busway), construction costs aren't much better than rail, and may be higher. There's always pressure against the BRT (to open it up for development, as a windfall for property owners along the way; and as a way to "improve traffic" for car drivers). Maintenance on asphalt/concrete is required more frequently than rail, and often costs more. It's harder to add capacity. And so on.

[asthasr]

Speaking of BRT, Guangzhou ("Canton") has one of the best lines in the world. This article covers some of the  challenges and successes of the project. Notably, even with the successes of this project, they haven't opened another line.

[KJHburg]

what can Charlotte learn from San Antonio and how about what the Alamo City can learn from us?  Metro San Antonio and Charlotte are virtually the same size metro population wise.

Lessons for Charlotte

1. This has to be number 1: historical preservation. SA is a leader in historic preservation and has been for a long time. They save facades see the photos. They save many large and small buildings. It adds to the charm of the city. 

2. Dealing with you got.  The SA River and the charming Riverwalk was basically built as a flood control and drainage project. Northern SA is 100s of feet higher than downtown SA and most of the water in the county comes right through downtown.  SA developed a huge 3 mile long at times 150 feet deep tunnel to divert floodwaters which come often here in the south Texas hill country. Since the tunnel's opening there has not been any major flooding in downtown.  The RiverWalk was at one time nothing more than an open ditch and they have turned into into a worldwide attraction.  Lesson for Charlotte embrace what we have like the greenway system through the city. 

3. Highways. TX DOT can build some highways and freeways. SA has a hub and spoke freeway system with freeways coming out of downtown in every direction.  (See what they can learn from Charlotte)

4. Huge convention hotels and lots of street level and Riverwalk retail downtown.

5. Great water conservation in the city. The city's per capita water usage continues to drop and is a model for the nation, http://texaslivingwaters.org/water-conservation/how-san-antonio-reduced-its-daily-water-use-by-85-gallons-per-person/

Lessons for San Antonio:

1. Allow new buildings to be built and continue to attract more residential.  They have tax credits to get residential development downtown.  Charlotte has not had to do that since the 1980s.

2. Encourage your biggest employers to go downtown.  USAA the biggest private employer in the city only recently starting move staff and leasing space downtown.  

3. Embrace new construction downtown:  downtown SA is getting its first new office tower in 30 years!  The new Frost Tower will open next year and a 30 year drought of new office construction downtown.  Some renovations but nothing new built. Nothing. Think how many new office towers in Charlotte have been built in 30 years!!   SA has plenty of surface lots to build on and even some along the Riverwalk in the newer north section which is unbelievable to me. 

4. Mass Transit: SA workforce is scattered all over the city much more than Charlotte. They have huge military  bases, a downtown with a fraction of the office space we have, and lots of suburban development.  However some kind of transit could link downtown through Northstar Mall area than over to the airport.  Charlotte is far ahead in this area. 

Personal Note:  I started school in San Antonio so this city means a great deal to me. I was an impressible youth.  I am because of San Antonio .  My love of history started here  when your first field trip as a kid was to the Alamo you really start to love history. My love of high rises started here with the tall 750 feet Tower of Americas (still the tallest when on school trip) Love of travel and my first foreign country visit as a kid to ole Mexico!  My first friend who spoke another language Carlos.  Always English to me (as most people do in SA but he always spoke Espanol to his parents).  My favorite ethnic food do you even need to ask Mexican of course. First time ever saw a rattlesnake (in our trash can), a roadrunner and some bad memories like the time I fell into a fire ant pit.  (Was bit all over and taken to the hospital)  Or the time I tried to jump our prickly pear cactus patch and did not quite make it LOL.  Outside of the Carolinas this would be the only place I would move to up in the rolling hills northwest of town with a view of the city lights or a place near the Riverwalk downtown. 

Photos: 1.  Massive flood control tunnel project explained.  2. Rand building a hub for technology startups founded by Rackspace founder  3. First new office tower in 30 years the new Frost Tower 4.5. check out the façade save of the Texas theater. (multiple other old theaters still standing in some form)  6. Emily Morgan Hotel by the Alamo 7. High rise apartments built about 10 yrs ago to look like an older building. (Vistana)  8. The Pearl a huge mixed use project built at an old brewery and incorporates most of all the old buildings including this the Emma Hotel.  (Check out more photos under SA Urban Planet the Pearl)  9. one of two massive new interchanges along Loop 410 on the westside of town. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by KJHburg

[EllAyyDub]

The Frost Tower is going to be gorgeous.  I would love a round-ish tower like this in Charlotte.

[KJHburg]

Here is a story about the new Frost Tower in downtown San Antonio. https://therivardreport.com/frost-bank-tower-design-signals-a-21st-century-san-antonio/  It is a great design.  

https://thefrosttower.com/

Edited April 10, 2018 by KJHburg

[asthasr]

In a different thread, @cjd5050 said that condos are the way to add density, and I wanted to look at that a little, because I think it's a common misconception. High-rise residential is a piece of the puzzle of density, but it isn't all of it. Let's look at some different high-density areas.

The first is San Jose, CA. Not exactly a poster child for urbanism, it's basically the "California City" carried to its conclusion: mile after mile of homogenous one-story development. It's not a pattern that we should follow, or even want to follow, but its low-slung form is offset by its sheer ground coverage. Houses are close together and thick on the ground. San Jose is about twice as dense as Charlotte (2,230/km² vs. 950/km²). Unfortunately, San Jose and its environs have resisted "becoming urban," so their public transportation and other urban amenities are largely terrible, and they have an ongoing housing shortage.

Next is Philadelphia. It's far more urban and walkable than San Jose, and yet most of its residential areas are characterized by two-story or three-story row houses. This was the traditional "American" style of building prior to the automobile era, far more heavily gridded and regular than the European cities that preceded them but still walkable and neighborhood-oriented. You can see very similar areas in large parts of New York (Brooklyn and Queens in particular), Washington, DC, Boston, and many Rust Belt cities. Philadelphia suffered from population loss during the late 20th century, and its school system is abysmal, but it still offers an extensive metro system and many beautiful areas. Philadelphia is more than four times as dense as Charlotte, at 4,511/km².

This is Amsterdam-West. As you might guess, it's a borough of Amsterdam. Notably, it is the densest borough of Amsterdam. There are a few high-rises scattered throughout, but the vast majority of the borough is characterized by wall-to-wall buildings of four to six stories. Amsterdam is famously beautiful, of course, a popular tourist destination with great bike infrastructure, parks, and canals. This borough is fourteen times as dense as Charlotte, at 14,000/km².

This is District 5 in Ho Chi Minh City. You can see one high-rise in this aerial photo, but the bulk of the district is made up of single family houses of four to six stories. As a major city in a developing country, HCMC doesn't offer much in the way of formal amenities; parks are few and far between (although that's being improved), and only buses provide public transportation at the moment, but they've got 173km of subway planned, of which two lines (about 70km) are under construction. The density of this district is about 41,000/km².

Of course, there are also cities that rely on high rises for their density. Most notably, I think, are Singapore and Hong Kong. However, both are physically constrained: Singapore purely because of the island and its constraints, and Hong Kong because of its political history and mountainous terrain. Both also require a much greater density of services in order to feel livable: while it's possible to live in HCMC comfortably with a motorbike or a car, I wouldn't want to have a personal vehicle in either Singapore or Hong Kong. The transit systems are excellent and let you live pretty well without one, though, so it's not a big deal. That said, I don't think Charlotte is going to make the necessary investments in transit to allow that to happen, and we don't have physical constraints on our development to require high rises... so the other models, denser than San Jose, seem like our best path toward a pleasant and walkable city. Low-to-mid-rise single family housing and small-scale apartment buildings can clearly carry you in that direction. Each of the cities above (except San Jose!) has organically-grown walking districts where it's a pleasure just to explore. When I think about the "urbanism" that I want for Charlotte's future, that's what I think about.

Edited April 11, 2018 by asthasr

[cjd5050]

48 minutes ago, asthasr said:

In a different thread, @cjd5050 said that condos are the way to add density, and I wanted to look at that a little, because I think it's a common misconception. High-rise residential is a piece of the puzzle of density, but it isn't all of it. Let's look at some different high-density areas.

First, thanks for the post.  I didn't truncate it out of disrespect but rather trying to keep the thread compressed. 

I guess I should have expanded my comment.  I am speaking specifically about Charlotte and what's possible, let alone probable, for Charlotte.   A city that has its own somewhat unique circumstances compared to global cities.  That being (IMHO) it's only about 50 years old as a 'big city' and had a horrible grid structure outside of Uptown that's based on the idea of corridors.  Take Dilworth for example:

In the above image, you have corridors of South Blvd, East Blvd, Kenilworth Ave and E. Morehead Street.  These corridors box in R2 and R3 single family homes in one of the most affluent and desirable neighborhoods in the entire region.   You're never really going to see townhouses 'inside of the box' and in my opinion, putting townhouses on the corridors is a wasted opportunity.   I see the same issue for Cherry, Elizabeth and other 1st and 2nd ring places from Uptown.  

So my take on condos is that stacking the corridors with mid to high rise towers is the only reasonable way Charlotte is ever going to gain the required density needed to sustain its growth.  Currently, the 28203 zip code is  3,052.82/sq mile but it should be 5,000/sq mile.  That's double the Charlotte average of 2,457/sq mile but less than half of Philadelphia at 11,000 sq mile.  A 10 story of 50 units on .5 acre could reasonably add 100 people to this area.  4 townhouses could reasonably put 16 people on the same .5 acre.  A SFH could put 4 per .5 acre.  

I obviously am not as much of a globetrotter as others here but we are in a Charlotte forum.  Not San Jose, London, New York City or Ho Chi Minh.  I was simply talking about what's possible and probable for Charlotte.  

 

 

 

 

 

[asthasr]

29 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

First, thanks for the post.  I didn't truncate it out of disrespect but rather trying to keep the thread compressed. 

That's normal, no worries

30 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

In the above image, you have corridors of South Blvd, East Blvd, Kenilworth Ave and E. Morehead Street.  These corridors box in R2 and R3 single family homes in one of the most affluent and desirable neighborhoods in the entire region.   You're never really going to see townhouses 'inside of the box' and in my opinion, putting townhouses on the corridors is a wasted opportunity.   I see the same issue for Cherry, Elizabeth and other 1st and 2nd ring places from Uptown.  

In my opinion, this area will never be redeveloped. Every city I listed above has its "old money" areas with larger houses and untouchable property owners (at least until the price for real estate is high enough to make them want to sell). Due to our zoning laws, it's even less likely that we'll ever see this redeveloped. The development that we will see here will, in fact, be mid-rises along the corridors, and that's fine. By no means am I against height where it's appropriate, I just don't think high-rise residential is plausible for Charlotte at the moment, given its costs, as a "bulk housing strategy," and I don't actually think these sorts of built-out places are the most interesting places to consider. Check out this street:

 

It's about 270 meters long. It's within walking distance of uptown. Minus some length for the cross streets and sidewalks, we can say it's 220 meters. In HCMC (which I am not holding out as some kind of ideal place, btw, I just use it as an example because I'm most familiar with it) dimensions, a typical house is 5m wide. That means that this little chunk of wasted land could hold 44 row houses on either side of Dunbar street! Furthermore, if they were built in the traditional way (commercial below, house above), it would immediately become one of Charlotte's best walking streets due to the ground floor shops. I think there are similar opportunities for economical, practical, and dense development in many other areas: decaying public housing projects, mediocre municipal golf courses, outdated and disused business parks, and so on.

[cjd5050]

29 minutes ago, asthasr said:

Due to our zoning laws, it's even less likely that we'll ever see this redeveloped. The development that we will see here will, in fact, be mid-rises along the corridors, and that's fine. By no means am I against height where it's appropriate, I just don't think high-rise residential is plausible for Charlotte at the moment, given its costs, as a "bulk housing strategy," and I don't actually think these sorts of built-out places are the most interesting places to consider.

 

 

 

I thought that Charlotte was in the process of rewriting the zoning laws.  If movement can't be made there maybe Charlotte should get creative.  Maybe incentives for density.  Policy makers seem OK to engineer affordable housing for the benefits that come with it.  Why not engineer dense market rate or even luxury units?  There are benefits of course, even if envy gets in the way.  For every self-sufficient corridor that Charlotte builds they reduce exponentially the need for infrastructure improvements and there is a compounding effect in commercial tax revenue.

 

I know some think Charlotte doesn't have the desire for condos...but it's not like Charlotteans are bending over backwards to have affordable housing built next door either...

[KJHburg]

From the March 23 issue of the San Antonio Business Journal    >>>> Why I am not hearing about this Federal tax incentive program for Opportunity Zones  here in Charlotte?  There are several zip codes here that would qualify for these opportunity zones.   This would be great for  the Eastland Mall area zip 28212, 28205, 28208, 28206 to name a few. 

""One of the most intriguing elements of last year's $1.5 trillion federal tax cut bill has received a small fraction of the media attention compared to the publicity for employee bonuses that companies have attributed to their new tax savings.  Opportunity Zones, as they're called, were established as part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, and while they've garnered little press coverage, they could mean a whole lot for local developers.

Opportunity Zones are a new community development tool meant to encourage long-term investment in low-income urban and rural communities, according to the Economic Innovation Group and the Internal Revenue Service. They do so by providing a tax incentive for investors to re-invest unrealized capital gains into investment vehicles labeled as opportunity funds, which are structured as partnerships or corporations and are dedicated to investing in Opportunity Zones.

Those zones are designated by the chief executives of every U.S. state and territory, meaning Gov. Greg Abbott has the authority to designate up to 25 percent of the eligible census tracts in Texas to be included in the program. In San Antonio, 179 tracts would qualify as Opportunity Zones, according to a mappublished by the U.S. Treasury, either by meeting the low-income criteria or by bordering a low-income neighborhood and not having a family median income that exceeds 125 percent of that low-income tract it borders. For these non-low-income neighborhoods, only 5 percent of them may be designated as opportunity zones.

>>This seems to be a no brainer for Charlotte I hope our city leaders get moving on some of these. 

 

[KJHburg]

This should be a lesson for any major city including Charlotte you can not let a problem like San Francisco's get out of hand.  I work with the homeless once a month in Concord and they deserve help but San Fran is not helping evidently.   (and I am not saying in any way Charlotte is like this but this should be a case of what NOT to do for every major US city) 

This article quotes the president of the local tourism bureau and his words are stunning for a city trying to attract conventions and tourists.  

https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Clean-up-San-Francisco-s-streets-tourist-12839281.php#photo-15404618

[Guest]

 
 
I thought that Charlotte was in the process of rewriting the zoning laws.  If movement can't be made there maybe Charlotte should get creative.  Maybe incentives for density.  Policy makers seem OK to engineer affordable housing for the benefits that come with it.  Why not engineer dense market rate or even luxury units?  There are benefits of course, even if envy gets in the way.  For every self-sufficient corridor that Charlotte builds they reduce exponentially the need for infrastructure improvements and there is a compounding effect in commercial tax revenue.
 
I know some think Charlotte doesn't have the desire for condos...but it's not like Charlotteans are bending over backwards to have affordable housing built next door either...

Read my UDO article, they are planning height bonuses, etc.
https://www.charlottefive.com/transit-zoning/
Gosh, I’m just realizing how awful the title they chose for this was.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Cadi40]

Would absolutely adore if Charlotte gets one large main stretch of Retail, Dining and Nightlife much like King Street in a Charleston or River Walk in SA. Charlotte is really missing the opportunity to do this in River District. We still have opportunities to have this in South End or  other areas but I think we’re missing the opportunity to have the closest thing to River Walk in SA. 

[SgtCampsalot]

8 minutes ago, Cadi40 said:

Would absolutely adore if Charlotte gets one large main stretch of Retail, Dining and Nightlife much like King Street in a Charleston or River Walk in SA. Charlotte is really missing the opportunity to do this in River District. We still have opportunities to have this in South End or  other areas but I think we’re missing the opportunity to have the closest thing to River Walk in SA. 

N Davidson St has the potential (after enough years)

[KJHburg]

This is a nice design for this 53 story tower in Tampa.  It does look like the old Centrust tower formerly now called the Miami Tower in downtown MIA.  https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2018/04/19/53-story-riverwalk-place-developers-reveal-ultra.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2018-04-19&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1524166908&j=81118751

 

[EllAyyDub]

Reminds me of the Sovereign in Buckhead.

[go_vertical]

Looks good. Hope it pans out because DT Tampa needs some movement. Other than Channelside which has had some decent development the downtown area has seen very little high rise construction since the recession.

[SgtCampsalot]

A nice little article by Charlotte's own Tom Lowe, architect, about the lack of distinguishing characteristics in Charlotte's high rises and office towers.

CNU.org, "Top-Hat Buildings"

[KJHburg]

All this talk of burying utility lines reminds me my 2nd home in Hilton Head has its grid almost all buried.  They are working on it and every month I have to pay a $3 surcharge to my monthly bill but most of the electrical lines are underground except for some major trunk lines coming onto the island. 

 This really helped with the recent hurricanes the entire island was out with Matthew but back up in 2-3 days the entire island because it was transformers that got damaged not the lines.  

http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article33631959.html

https://hiltonheadislandsc.gov/projects/powerline/home.cfm

All newly development has buried lines in the suburbs but Charlotte does need to start in the inner city along major commercial corridors.  Hilton Head is year 13 of the 15 year project.  

Edited April 20, 2018 by KJHburg

[asthasr]

This is an interesting warehouse/industrial land reclamation project. It'll be interesting to see how it ages (some of the shapes leave me skeptical), but for a retrofit of a blighted space it's pretty awesome. It'd be nice to see some of our unloved spaces get this kind of treatment.

[KJHburg]

I am wondering in AllianceBernstein big NY financial firm looking to moves 100s of jobs out of NYC to either Nashville or Charlotte is waiting to see how this May 1 vote in Nashville turns out.  If they disapprove it might increase Charlotte's chances.  By the way they are proposing a tunnel through downtown Nashville that has a eye popping price tag.    Anyway it will be interesting to see how this works out.  Nashville is very behind Charlotte in transit and even highways.   Their congestion levels mid day remind me of Atlanta.  

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/04/19/your-time-taxes-vote-a-guide-to-transit-debate.htm

 

[Guest]

On 3/14/2018 at 3:01 PM, tarhoosier said:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-bay-area-residents-moving-away-increase-u-haul-rental-prices-2018-3?r=US&IR=T

Is it true?

Just got back from Raleigh and I gotta say... What a city with a TON of potential. They are really doing it correctly. Sure they don't have the skyscrapers Charlotte has, but they have all the buildings to support very vibrant adaptive reuse. Their stick built midrises are so much more attractive than Charlottes, and really pay great attention to the street, its actually embarrassing how much better their mid rises were. Amazingly retail locations in modern buildings that in Charlotte would be marketed as Class-AA retail and would ultimately become a trendy chain actually had mom and pop, and local retailers. There was a hardware store downtown for christ sakes lol. I came away very impressed. 

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Just got back from Raleigh and I gotta say... What a city with a TON of potential. They are really doing it correctly. Sure they don't have the skyscrapers Charlotte has, but they have all the buildings to support very vibrant adaptive reuse. Their stick built midrises are so much more attractive than Charlottes, and really pay great attention to the street, its actually embarrassing how much better their mid rises were. Amazingly retail locations in modern buildings that in Charlotte would be marketed as Class-AA retail and would ultimately become a trendy chain actually had mom and pop, and local retailers. There was a hardware store downtown for christ sakes lol. I came away very impressed. 

Agree completely, downtown Raleigh has a much better mix of street-level activities, good non-expense account restaurants, and entertainment than we do. I do wish that the inner-ring neighborhoods (Five Points, Glenwood and Hillsboro St) were better connected to downtown (its the ideal scale for streetcar connectivity). I have been confused about how all that stuff gets supported since dt Raleigh has much less employment than CLT (I am not counting the state govt complex).

The downside of Raleigh is that it is a frickin sprawlariffic-wasteland once you get more than a mile from downtown. [<-- take that with a grain of salt, I grew up in Durham so the nasty-neighbor effect is in play]

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, kermit said:

Agree completely, downtown Raleigh has a much better mix of street-level activities, good non-expense account restaurants, and entertainment than we do. I do wish that the inner-ring neighborhoods (Five Points, Glenwood and Hillsboro St) were better connected to downtown (its the ideal scale for streetcar connectivity). I have been confused about how all that stuff gets supported since dt Raleigh has much less employment than CLT (I am not counting the state govt complex).

The downside of Raleigh is that it is a frickin sprawlariffic-wasteland once you get more than a mile from downtown. [<-- take that with a grain of salt, I grew up in Durham so the nasty-neighbor effect is in play]

I do give it a glowing review here, but it was definitely not without its negatives. There were a ton of issues with pedestrian connectivity. Walking from Oakwood to Glenwood South down Peace Street was dangerous at best. Crossing where capital blvd spills into downtown is scary. Car drivers were looking at my wife and I like we were crazy, as we had to frogger accross a busy street because the sidewalk ended. Then when we crossed the on ramps we had to be careful not to get hit. Same issue traveling into downtown from Hillsborough and Glenwood South. Theres a big time building being built here, yet we had to cross the street with no crosswalks and had to run accross a blind curve where we almost got hit by a car. There was a half assed pedestrian refuge but no crosswalks or walk signals near it. Glenwood Ave does not feature adequate pedestrian experience either. The concentration of humans made it so you had to cross mid street a lot, and there were no pedestrian lights, crossings, or stop lights for blocks and blocks.  

Edited April 30, 2018 by Guest