Back in Utopia after a weekend visit to GR

[Rizzo]

If it wasn't for African-Americans and standing up in the 60s here in America my Irish brothers and sisters would probably still be oppresed. So here's to the Civil Rights movement.

I think that The City of Grand Rapids is progressive, but one could also say that Grand Rapids is really being held down by the silent suburban majority. I know that out in the suburbs racism is quite, the mentality is your not a racist if only you don't say the n word. Grand Rapids can be a beacon of change, but it won't work until Wyoming, Grandville, Holland, and others change as well. This dosen't mean a Party change, hell Muskegon is a Democratic strong hold in West Michigan and yet it is very Red in values just as the rest of the Metro.

[Freddy C]

Metrokid, that was one of the most eloquent, articulate and truthful synopsis of reality in GR that I have ever seen written. You are a person of well rounded intellect and wisdom. The present is indeed the creation of the past and hence to forget the past only produces ignorance of the present, which will erode the future. The notion of leaving the past behind simply defies the rules of the universe. Should we leave behind all things created in the past, such as the constitution, the freedoms won, and the accrued wealth from centuries? Or should we only leave behind the liabilities of the past while consuming and embracing the assets and owners equity from the past? What happened to African Americans is viewed as a liability upon the present that most Americans want to write of or file chapter 11 for protection against creditors.

The truth or reality is this. Economic growth buoyancy is tied to population dynamics. An economy, whether local, regional or national, cannot grow without population growth, ignoring growth from productivity gains. This is because economic growth requires new workers and new consumers to fuel it. New workers and consumer are the resultant of population growth and it will be very hard for a geographic location to increase its local Gross Production with stagnating population growth or decline. This is important because in America, what groups are fueling the population growth? The answer to that question is MINORITIES. Ergo, if an area is to be economically competitive and viable in the 21st century America, it is going to be fueled by minorities. Hence, geographic locations that are not viewed favorably by minorities will be non competitive and will lag in performance and growth. I am sure that many people feel uncomfortable with the changing demographics of America threatening the

[MJLO]

Freddy, I do not at an point disagree with you. Western Michigan has a rich tradition, of indirectly, and then in some cases directly discriminating agaist the less fortunate. I see it every day, the police do racial profile, and yes, the neighborhoods on the southeast side did suffer disinvestment. It happened in every major industrial city in the midwest. To some extent accross the Nation. It hurt the cities, but in the overall picture. If you want to talk about "white flight", Grand Rapids, even though it is a midsize city, right now has more people than it ever has. It has not suffered the decline that you speak of overall. The south east side, is not as pretty as it once was. But lets all take a trip to the west side, I think i'd rather hang out with the minorities, in Burton Hieghts, than the scary polish people on the immediate west side.

What I do think is that your opinion, is a tad bit biased based on your experiences growing up here. Michigan is not losing population, it is growing. The truth is, we are losing more people of european decent than anyone else. The Growth here, is fueled by minorities. Michigan has gained, and will continue to grow by more residents than MN and most other states. So who is moving here? By minority, do you only speak of people of African decent? Or did you miss the news article where people of latin decent were the fastest growing demographic in the country, expected to out pace those of even European decent. Michigans Growth is fueled by people from all over the world. Perhaps I miss your point, but saying Grand Rapids is tantamount to a S***hole, because certain neighborhoods could definately use some repair, is absurd.

The downward slide of Michigans, and yes Grand Rapids economy has little to do with the South East side, and everything to do with over-reliance on the manufacturing sector, which for the past fifty years has been dying. Diversification in our economy, which if you haven't been paying attention has been slowly but surely taking place. Will lead to economic growth. Whether it attracts you to come back or not. The things you speak of, Making Grand Rapids a more welcoming place to live, diversification, These things have been put in place, it takes time to see the full affect. And while the days of The oppressive puritanical Dutch Calvinists are not comepletely over, they have all but left. The issue of addressing more colorful people, ie, homosexuals, minorities, and overall people with a more liberal, progressive way of thinking, has started to be addressed. Just look at the "Art District" going up in Heartside. Hey its not world class, but it's a start.

[Freddy C]

Freddy, I do not at an point disagree with you. Western Michigan has a rich tradition, of indirectly, and then in some cases directly discriminating agaist the less fortunate.  I see it every day, the police do racial profile, and yes, the neighborhoods on the southeast side did suffer disinvestment.  It happened in every major industrial city in the  midwest.  To some extent accross the Nation.  It hurt the cities, but in the overall picture.  If you want to talk about "white flight",  Grand Rapids, even though it is a midsize city, right now has more people than it ever has.  It has not suffered the decline that you speak of overall.  The south east side, is not as pretty as it once was.  But lets all take a trip to the west side, I think i'd rather hang out with the minorities, in  Burton Hieghts, than the scary polish people on the immediate west side.

What I do think is that your opinion, is a tad bit biased based on your experiences growing up here.  Michigan is not losing population, it is growing.  The truth is, we are losing more people of european decent than anyone else.  The Growth here, is fueled by minorities. Michigan has gained, and will continue to grow by more residents than MN and most other states.    So who is moving here?  By minority, do you only speak of people of African decent?  Or did you miss the news article where people of latin decent were the fastest growing demographic in the country, expected to out pace those of even European decent.  Michigans Growth is fueled by people from all over the world.  Perhaps I miss your point,  but saying Grand Rapids is tantamount to a S***hole, because certain neighborhoods could definately use some repair, is absurd.

The downward slide of Michigans, and yes Grand Rapids economy has little to do with the South East side, and everything to do with over-reliance on the manufacturing sector, which for the past fifty years has been dying.  Diversification in our economy, which if you haven't been paying attention has been slowly but surely taking place. Will lead to economic growth. Whether it attracts you to come back or not.  The things you speak of,  Making Grand Rapids a more welcoming place to live, diversification, These things have been put in place, it takes time to see the full affect.  And while the days of The oppressive puritanical Dutch Calvinists are not comepletely over,  they have all but left.    The issue of addressing more colorful people, ie,  homosexuals, minorities, and overall people with a more liberal, progressive way of thinking, has started to be addressed.  Just look at the "Art District" going up in Heartside.  Hey its not world class, but it's a start.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Minority growth in West Michigan is of the unskilled nature type. Unless you are looking to build a third world type of economy off the backs of cheap exploitable labor...that is not a good thing. The question is not absolute population gain, being competitive is about relative population gain. To say that Michigan

[MJLO]

I can't argue with that, If they would raise the taxes, I would pay them, I believe beautification would do this area much good. I've never been against that, But given the nature of the people in this area, the only thing that would change that, is private investment.

[twoshort]

That's it. I'm moving to Minneapolis. See you guys later.

[GRDadof3]

Contrary to popular belief, the fastest growing areas in the country really are not attracting the young, hip, urbanists. They are mostly Southern warmer climates, ie Atlanta, Florida (14 of the 100 fastest growing counties), California, Arizona, Las Vegas, etc., etc.. And this is due to a buying binge created by Baby Boomers moving from the East Coast and Midwest, and hispanics immigrating into the country, and LOW taxes. Las Vegas, where there is virtually no tax on business, is growing so fast that home-builders run their contractors in three shifts, like manufacturing plants, to keep up with their exploding backlog of orders. The only areas in Minnesota growing are Scott and Sherbourne Counties (suburban Mnpls). How is Ramsey County doing?

It is unfortunate that many African Americans experience racism on a daily basis, but I find it hard to believe that Minneapolis is some panacea floating island where no racism exists and everyone dances in peace circles all day. Although I applaud your determinination to make a better life for your family, if the way to attract population growth means wooing people who are asking "what can this city do for me", no thanks!

And having said that, I'm leaving too! (Just this topic for good)

[Freddy C]

Contrary to popular belief, the fastest growing areas in the country really are not attracting the young, hip, urbanists. They are mostly Southern warmer climates, ie Atlanta, Florida (14 of the 100 fastest growing counties), California, Arizona, Las Vegas, etc., etc.. And this is due to a buying binge created by Baby Boomers moving from the East Coast and Midwest, and hispanics immigrating into the country, and LOW taxes. Las Vegas, where there is virtually no tax on business, is growing so fast that home-builders run their contractors in three shifts, like manufacturing plants, to keep up with their exploding backlog of orders. The only areas in Minnesota growing are Scott and Sherbourne Counties (suburban Mnpls). How is Ramsey County doing?

It is unfortunate that many African Americans experience racism on a daily basis, but I find it hard to believe that Minneapolis is some panacea floating island where no racism exists and everyone dances in peace circles all day. Although I applaud your determinination to make a better life for your family, if the way to attract population growth means wooing people who are asking "what can this city do for me", no thanks!

And having said that, I'm leaving too! (Just this topic for good)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Contrary to whose popular belief? There are three categories of growth. There is growth via natural increase (births over death). There is growth by domestic migration. There is growth by immigration. The fertility rate of Developed nations has declined to the point of nearing zero population growth as births are barely keeping pace with deaths. Thus, the issue is what places are attracting the immigrants, who are mostly minorities and where are the in-migration magnates. Simply googling for statistics to not provide understanding of demographics changes taking place. In regards to gains in net-domestic-migration, it

[Freddy C]

You know it

[twoshort]

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps if all you're trying to do is help us out with our deeply-rooted problems you could have done so in a better manner. Titling your thread 'Back in Utopia after a weekend visit to GR' wasn't a great start. I think everyone understands what you're getting at, but I think you went about it all wrong. Your 'my town is better than you' attitude isn't going to gain you any respect.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Freddy C]

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps if all you're trying to do is help us out with our deeply-rooted problems you could have done so in a better manner.

[joeDowntown]

Ok, ok. The dead horse has officially been beaten. Let's move on or I will lock this topic.

Joe

[metrogrkid]

Ok, ok. The dead horse has officially been beaten. Let's move on or I will lock this topic.

Joe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Joe:

THIS IS THE CRUX OF GR'S LACK OF GREATNESS. It is not the purview of anyone of goodwill and forthrightness to attempt to shutter exposing the dark underbelly of GR when its continued free-form discourse will indeed reveal solutions to what ails it - AND ALL OF US.

I understand your concern to avert what you perceive to be a simple argument, but this issue is far more profound than that. To enact a censure of this quintessant thread would amount to the Emperor becoming manifest in you now. Such a persona is both beneath you and does not reflect the man I work with and have come to respect greatly on the Committee for the Planning of a World-Class Downtown. Please trust me - this thread will become a powerful tool for creating a blueprint of what the socioeconomic component of Metro GR can truly be.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I am jumping in this rather late but I saw the same things Freddy C saw, when I last visited my hometown of Grand Rapids in April. I see the stark difference between GR and my new home in Charlotte. I receive the GR Business Journal every month and I am happy to see some new growths in GR, but these growths are far too minor for the damage to be repaired. I don't even see a solid growth in the suburbs. I don't know what is in store for GR but I hope something changes right quick.

EDIT:

Reading back, I am little off topic too

[snoogit]

I am jumping in this rather late but I saw the same things Freddy C saw, when I last visited my hometown of Grand Rapids in April. I see the stark difference between GR and my new home in Charlotte. I receive the GR Business Journal every month and I am happy to see some new growths in GR, but these growths are far too minor for the damage to be repaired. I don't even see a solid growth in the suburbs. I don't know what is in store for GR but I hope something changes right quick.

EDIT:

Reading back, I am little off topic too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gr for its entire history has been known to keep its groeth in check, and so far its worked. GR has grown every census since the 1950s is it as much as it could be? no, but it grows when other cities dont. I dont think GR has had a really big building boom since the 60s. We just dont build unless we need to, or there is enough interest to do so. Like the Arena, or the Convention Center.

[joeDowntown]

Here's the deal. This forum is not meant to be one city vs. another. This is what this topic has become. If someone wants to start a discussion on the social ills of GRAND RAPIDS, that is fine. We'll discuss it, get heated about it, argue about it, etc. But people swooping in and saying "I moved away from that crappy city and now live in Utopia" does nothing but stir the pot. I am sick of the rhetoric.

I don't care about how much better Minneapolis or Charlotte is than Grand Rapids. I care about making Grand Rapids a better place and am sticking by my position that this topic has degraded into a semi-intelligent mudslinging contest.

Enough said.

Joe

Joe:

THIS IS THE CRUX OF GR'S LACK OF GREATNESS.  It is not the purview of anyone of goodwill and forthrightness to attempt to shutter exposing the dark underbelly of GR when its continued free-form discourse will indeed reveal solutions to what ails it - AND ALL OF US.

I understand your concern to avert what you perceive to be a simple argument, but this issue is far more profound than that.  To enact a censure of this quintessant thread would amount to the Emperor becoming manifest in you now.  Such a persona is both beneath you and does not reflect the man I work with and have come to respect greatly on the Committee for the Planning of a World-Class Downtown.  Please trust me - this thread will become a powerful tool for creating a blueprint of what the socioeconomic component of Metro GR can truly be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Rizzo]

^Damn straight

GR is a city in its own class. It can't be compared, it can't be likened to, it just can't. If you compare us to a mega city, all GR can throw in their face is that we have one of the largest manufacturing labor forces in America. If you compare us to a place like Des Moines, well, you get the picture. It is counter-productive to heckle about what is not GR and what is, lets focus on the result, a World-Class downtown.

[Freddy C]

Here's the deal. This forum is not meant to be one city vs. another. This is what this topic has become. If someone wants to start a discussion on the social ills of GRAND RAPIDS, that is fine. We'll discuss it, get heated about it, argue about it, etc. But people swooping in and saying "I moved away from that crappy city and now live in Utopia" does nothing but stir the pot. I am sick of the rhetoric.

I don't care about how much better Minneapolis or Charlotte is than Grand Rapids. I care about making Grand Rapids a better place and am sticking by my position that this topic has degraded into a semi-intelligent mudslinging contest.

Enough said.

Joe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where is the instruction manual and mission statement corroborating that proposition Joe? I have seen no such verbiage in the rules of the forum that excludes comparing one city to another. That is because no such restriction or filter exists in the rules of this forum. To shut down a thread when none of the predefined objective rules of forum etiquette has been breached is the abuse of power.

Our whole construct of existence is predicated upon competition. Competition can only manifest by juxtaposing one entity with another. Corporations, Politicians, businesses, nations, cities, and regions are all competitive entities that consciously juxtaposes with its peers in attempt to win. It is through competition or emulation, that a city or region is given the incentive to do better. The absence of competition and emulation leads to stagnation.

How can one strive to make Grand Rapids a better place, if there are people under the impression that there is nothing wrong with it the way it is? There are many people who are satisfied with Grand Rapids as it is. How can one convince them that GR can stand some improvement, without comparing and contrasting it with other places and revealing the consequences of it not being competitive with these other places?

Of course I realize that I am not going to convince Joe of anything here. It

[Rizzo]

"to many people in GR are uncomfortable with people like me and our true life experiences and they use their power in a unfair way."

^Althought I can't agree with all that you have been saying, I can agree to the above.

[egrguy]

there certainly is passion on this thread. i agree that gr is not perfect and has its deficienies.

"How can one strive to make Grand Rapids a better place, if there are people under the impression that there is nothing wrong with it the way it is? There are many people who are satisfied with Grand Rapids as it is. How can one convince them that GR can stand some improvement, without comparing and contrasting it with other places and revealing the consequences of it not being competitive with these other places?"

i think this is a severe issue for people that are passionate about GR. the passionate view the city as a C-student with A-potential while many citizens are merely happy with the way things are and dont want to put any effort towards change. i truly think that GR can become a better and more well rounded city, and i also think that GR is on the right track.

is it moving fast? no, not at all, but truly one can really mark the turn around in GR to the arena being built. going from that time frame the city has seen new developments which include in my opinion will be some of the most important foundations for the city's cultural and economic future. with WMU, Ferris, GVSU and the proposed MSU med-school downtown is bringing young students from around the region to dt's core. hopefully this mix of students will only help to foster different ideas, dreams, and beliefs and it takes time for ideas, dreams, and beliefs to change for the better and i think that gr is on that track.

not that gr is doing the best job possible, but there are people like freddy c that live in gr that are passionate about the city's ills and working to correct them and through those people GR will change, but it wont be overnight.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

many citizens are merely happy with the way things are

I don't see how that can be possible when they are loosing jobs left and right, experiencing increases in crime (I hear this from my relatives all the time), a steadily poorer education system and just not having an expanding economy. Maybe they are just lazy or they have never heard of how green the grass really is elsewhere.

[Freddy C]

I don't see how that can be possible when they are loosing jobs left and right, experiencing increases in crime (I hear this from my relatives all the time), a steadily poorer education system and just not having an expanding economy. Maybe they are just lazy or they have never heard of how green the grass really is elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The way this can be is BY PEOPLE NOT TALKING ABOUT THOSE FACTS. Not everyone is experiencing these pains...for some, life in GR is better than ever and they don

[twoshort]

(aside from the decline of the big 3)....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this needs a little more credit than you're giving it.

[Freddy C]

I think this needs a little more credit than you're giving it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never quantified how much weight I was placing on either phenomenon as a contributing factor. As far as the decline of Detroit proper, too much weight is placed on the decline of the Big 3, in my opinion. Pittsburg also experienced a massive loss in the steel Industry, comparable to the local impact of the decline of the Auto industry in Detroit. Yet, the City of Pittsburgh proper has not experienced the degree of decline that has manifested in the City of Detroit. The fact is that there were many people in suburban Detroit who bragged about not having been downtown in decades the lack of need they had to go there. Many unfortunately also disliked the mayor of Detroit (Coleman Young) so much, that they wanted nothing positive to happen while he was in office. They wanted the city to fail so that they could say...

[twoshort]

As far as the decline of Detroit proper, too much weight is placed on the decline of the Big 3, in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This conversation is getting to the point where it's in the wrong forum.. we've lost track. Perhaps you need to get it back on track. What was the point again? We've gone so many different directions, I think it had something to do with Grand Rapids decay due to lack of funds.