eastbank

Truth be told, there has been some conflict between the old residents and the new development -- as is the case in most any area that becomes "gentrified." Except in this case, race is a factor in the equation. The same thing is going on near CityPlace apartments and revitalization projects around Parramore, for instance. The city of WP, however, has taken a lot of steps to be respectful of the residents. Alcohol serving establishments in the area have last call at 11 to reduce traffic and noise for the residents. I believe an African American History museum is in the works, the forementioned splash style fountain was installed at great cost for the neighborhood's kids, and the community center and pool are receiving extensive upgrades. No one, to my knowledge, is being "forced out," and as you alluded to, those that are choosing to sell and move are profiting greatly. In addition, several new historic bungalow style homes have been built to house low income families in the area. But, I mentioned all this as a comparison to Thornton Park. TP is a lot of things, but it doesn't have a historical context like Hannibal Square does. WP borders Eatonville, one of the oldest "black" townships in the USA, with its own proud history and the Zora Neale Hurston festival every year. Hannibal Square has a craft fair and annual events now, too, that celebrate its own unique history and sense of place. As a white person, I've never felt unwelcome at any of these gatherings. Good music, and good food, too. The shops and buildings coming up lining west New England Ave will connect this area to Park Ave, and over to the new (and quite beautiful) Police and Fire Department building further north. Hannibal Square has quickly transformed from "the other side of teh tracks" to an area of diversity and unique history, one that is being integrated into WP's cultural identity. Ten years ago Thornton Park was a *very* scary place. The homeless problem around Lake Eola was absoltuely out of control, the buildings were rotting, crime was high, and you couldn't give property away. Phil Rampy and others have changed all that, and its certainly a young-ish, yuppie-ish place to be now, and the location is great for downtown workers - and many of the historic homes have been nicely remodeled. But beyond that - its hard for me to see its "dynamic" qualities. ITs definitely louder than Hannibal Square, but its certainly less economically, racially, and culturally diverse than WP's west end. So, is it gilding the lilly? I dunno. I suppose its a question of not only "what" is there, but also how you see it. Cheers eastbank

That is precisely what is happening. The Comprehensive Plan is in the process of revision and updating - now that there is a new mayor. There is a Comprehensive Plan Task Force Committee is doing its work, and surveys have been mailed to ALL residents to get feedback on what the residents' vision is. The updated Comprehensive Plan will be the guide for development in Winter Park over the next ten years. Design sheets have been drawn up, and there will be public hearings on June 21st and at the City Commission meeting on Monday, July 10th. The Comprehensive Plan will then be transmitted to the DCA for review and comment. Nevertheless, the Carlisle received conditional approval under the pre-existing comprehensive plan -- based on several Marchman variances, (which also are not set in stone). They have NOT made a final presentation to the city, and are trying legal maneuvers to avoid the requirement of final approval before they break ground. WHY? Well, that's a mystery to all, but the city has clearly stated, that if the developers don't make the final presentation and get final approval, there will be NO Carlisle. And so the saga continues..

Uhhh, no. I stated that Winter Park was the first planned community in the state of Florida, which is fact. Urban planners from around the country study its design and layout in planning new urbanism projects. The planners of Seaside, and many, many subsequent projects, including Celebration, studied Winter Park before those projects got off the ground. No. WP was established as a resort town for wealthy northerners at the end of the 19th century. Many mansions and hotels sprang up around the chain of lakes, and shortly after, Rollins - the oldest private liberal arts college in the state - was started by a man from Maine. According to the original plan, the west side of the train tracks, Hannibal Square, was to be housing for servants and workers (ie the blacks). It was de-annexed after the Civil War, and re-annexed as Southern racism finally began to die down, after the reconstruction. Orlando was a mere trading post and cow town in the days when WP had elaborate resorts and played host to socialites from Chicago, Boston, and New York. WP's early growth was quite apart from Orlando's origins.

Ah yes, the Fifth Third project. Is it officially dead now? I understand how difficult it must have been - on that corner, despite commercial zoning, it is close enough to Windsong and enough multimillion dollar homes (Phelps area) that people would have raised a stink if that parcel was developed without some special touches. A new gateway at that intersection would be fantastic. A lot of folks living around that area would prefer the sort of dilapadated run down and overgrown corner to just another bank-in a box, so the hurdles presented don't surprise me. I wonder what the future has in store for that spot? Bingo. The Carlisle folks have some slick PR people working for them, twisting the truth, but our new mayor is hopefully going to stand his ground and hold them to their obligations, if they want to build at all.

Yes!! Better than Marchman, and the Carlisle developers - who, incidentally, live in McMansions in subdivisions, NOT in established, historic neighborhoods. Thankfully the political process works, and we have elected someone with a vision that more closely resembles what the founders, and what we the resident taxpayers, want for our city.

Baloney. The only thing we are excluding are development projects that do not meet the requirements of the Comprehensive Plan. Despite all the red-herring arguments and personal attacks, the NIMBY arguments, the illegal campagining, the elites, the class warfare, and all that has been dredged up here and mostly in the course of the election regarding the Carlisle, the fact remains that the only issue standing in the way of this project is that: a) it doesn't meet the comprehensive plan b) the developer wishes to circumvent the approval process. As for the rest: I think Thornton Park is laughable compared to Hannibal square, so we can just disagree. Hannibal Sq. has a lengthy history that predates Thornton Park, is within walking distance to THE most deisrable urban area in metro Orlando (Park Ave), and has gone from blight to deisrable in less time than it took for Wildfire's to add a dirt parking lot. And you are WRONG. Dexter's started in **Winter Park**, and it was Thornton park that "scored" its own carbon copy of the WP eatery. Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery, eh? Hannibal Square has a community center, a new splash fountain, mutliple bars restaurants and boutiques, an proud and strong ethnic neighborhood, churches, apartments, etc. All TP has is one tiny small block of retail that can barely keep a tenant for more than a year (besides Thurstons bar) and a lot of homeless people / panhandlers milling about the overvalued yuppie homes. Starbucks and 7-11 don't make TP dynamic, it makes it the same as everywhere else. Let's compare Hannibal Sq and TP again in 5 years. Maybe by then TP will have scored a Chez Vincent or a Carr's (oh wait, they already have one, though it was in WP first)....

No, I think you misunderstand. First, I am bemoaning the fact that the proliferation of McMansions isn't regulated in some way, in residential neighborhoods. This has nothing to do with the Comprhensive Plan which affects mainly gateways and the CBD. Second, note that the long term comprehensive plan does NOT dictate architectural style -- much like the Seaside plan you were championing just a few posts ago. So be it English Tudor (Carlisle), brick nostalgic, or neogothic, if it meets the plan, the city is allowed to grow and evolve organically, without some red tape committee dictating what shape and color everything must be (like in oppressive, monotonous 'new ubranism' projects like Celebration and Baldwin Park). The reclad of the Barnett Bank building is such an improvement over the 1960s glass and concrete box that it was that its not even worth discussing. Our height limits serve to protect us from having to look at a big box like that ever again. Sure, you can criticize it, but to see the change as anything but positive is absurd. Dinner at Luma sure beats what was there. Therefore, whether or not you like the STYLE of the buildings in Hannibal square or elsewhere, they are being built because their use, impact, height, length, size of the structures meets the city's vision for its future. FWIW, Hannibal Square and the surrounding residential areas are light years beyond what they were even 5 years ago, and in 5 more years, Thornton Park will look to it as an example of how it should evolve. No big, boxy, cracking at the seams Thornton Park Central for Hannibal Square, not b/c of how it looks, but b/c it doesn't meet our plan -- it would simply be too dense for the neighborhood. So there you have it. Redevelopment abounds, in all manner of styles, and is fueling residential and retail growth throughout the city's west side. The Carlisle is just inches short of a green light for construction, if only they could meet the city's plan instead of presuming to dictate to the city what the property shall be. Comprehensive plans make for more livable, desirable cities. They are even better when they allow flexibility - like Seaside, which learned its tricks largely from Winter Park, which started planning it future in the 19th century.

As far as comprehensive plans go, that is entirely the issue with the Carlisle. WP has a comprehensive plan, has had it for many years, and the Carlisle does not comply with it. That is all there is to it. Not Nimby, not elitism, not haves vs. have nots, not aesthetics. Long term comprehensive plan - thats where the Carlisle issue begins and ends. It has nothing to do with "imposing limits." It has to do with adherence to the plan. Every planned community - from Celebration to Seaside, has its roots in Winter Park, whose founders drew up a plan a century ago that made it what it was, and allowed the city to grow organically in a way that new, pre-fab, all-at-once 'new urbanism' projects can't match without the passage of time. The people simply got tired of watching the village scale and comprehensive plan be varianced out of existence by politicians that were a bit TOO cozy to developers that want to build as big as they possibly can. The only scale-back or 'shoot-down' I'm aware of is the Carlisle. Adherence to a long term comprehensive plan isn't a bad thing. If I agree with your final sentiment at all, it is only in the sense that its a shame there is no historic preservation code that prevents historic residential properties being razed to make way for McMansions. At least our Central Business District is safe (for now) from these types of excesses.

That's the place, and it is still vacant. In the end I don't think Carlisle opponents oppose redeveloping the post office property, or the addtion of some few condos in the downtown area (plenty are on the way right now) - its simply a matter of scale and context - and neither meeting the city's vision for the future. FWIW, most of the 'Aloma area' is NOT within the city of WP. The city limit on the east side is Balfour Drive (annexed) and the traditional city limit (was) Lakemont. Furthermore, SR426 is a state road and thus the city is very limited in how they can affect the streetscape and terraforming. Negotiations with the state to change this have been ongoing. But as for Aloma out by 436 and beyond, well, despite what people write for their return addresses out there, it ain't WP so there's not much we can do about it. For the mostpart, I agree. Most park users aren't WP residents and commute in for the Farmer's Market, shopping, museums, , work, park space etc. Whenever a family member visits "Orlando,," WP is usually the showcase that is toured, afterall. Personally, I walk there, but I'm just one person. Sunsets? Well, they are obscured and filtered through trees, but I find that preferable to the shadow of a large building. Stand opposite Park Place, on the east sidewalk of Park Ave, during the beautiful winter months, after 3PM, and you'll quite quickly sense what a building of that size does to the aesthetic qualities of the area, with regard to sunlight! I would rather that the Carlisle and the city reach some consensus sooner rather than later, but the builder doesn't seem to want to work with the city. Personally, I can't see paying $1m+ to listen to freight trains rattle my condo at 3AM, esp. when you can buy a freestanding home with lake access for that kind of $$, but to each his own. Hopefully sales and leasing will go better than the start of soncstruction or leasing at Park Place!!!

Principally, it is comparable to Metrowest (rather than WP Village) because of its multi-unit, multi-story, high density residential status, its zero-offset placement, its "new urbanism" design philosophy and its construction techniques and materials - WP Village on the other hand is just a two-story outdoor shopping mall, with very little residential housing (so far). Well, then, in both cases - College Park and Winter Park, the majority of people are being heard and listened to. I think thats great! It seems natural and just that the residents - and not vocal outsiders - should dictate development pace and scale in independent municipalities. If developers don't like the standards, they can always build somewhere else. The Carlisle backers have tried everything - from suing the city and opponents, to sending out illegal campaign materials - to get their way, and still were on the losing side of the election. The only thing they have not explored is compromising with the city and the majority of its residents. And so they shall continue to wait as their costs escalate and the dream recedes.

I don't think comparing the Wellesley to Avalon or Metrowest construction is a stretch AT ALL, and I know plenty about the project. I think direct comparisons are appropriate given the type and size of building that it is. The "administrative sprawl" comment was meant to convey that Orlando/OC is a huge municipality, and residents of an enclave like College Park have a lot less say in their fate than residents of a small, independent municipality like WP. The results of Orlando and OC's (lack of) thoughtful planning are quite clear to anyone that pays attention to urbanization and sprawl issues. Kudos to those with the political will to resist making the same mistakes that have created Orlando's mess. Don't confuse "anti-development/Nimbyism" with "appropriate development" and development that meets existing laws and the City of WP's long range master plan. The Carlylse does currently not meet our requirements. The "sunlight" issue in the park is quite far from ridiculous. If it didn't matter, there would currently be cranes on Central Park.

Well, this just shows how opinions of what is the "correct" direction for our city can vary. For now at least, the more aggressive, large-scale, pro-developer approach has lost in WP to more careful planning and more stringent adherence to our requirements. It seems those of us that "don't like the sun" (in Florida ?!?), thankfully, are in the minority. As for equating the sun-blocking effect of a 5 story 60 foot building to what happens when sunlight filters through a canopy of century-old oak trees indicates to me that you do not understand the motivation of the majority of voters that bounced Kip "Build It!" Marchman out of office. As for Park Place, interesting that you brought that up - in that this structure was the wakeup call that motivated the citizens to resist the Carlisle. This hulking dryvit box has been complete for nearly a year, and "pre-leasing" went on for 6+ months before that, and there is yet to be a SINGLE retail tenant in the building. A total failure of planning has left us with a vacant building....nevermind the developer violated their agreement with the city and erected lightpoles on the parking structure that were visible more than a mile(!) away (and was forced to remove/alter them). Good thing we have that building, it was really needed, and is really "revitalizing" the area (sarcasm). As for the College Park condo box, we'll see how it goes toward "revitalizing" the area. Unfortunately for the residents of that area, they didn't really have much of a say in its construction. This just illustrates why WP is blessed to be a separate municipality with its own standards, regs, and elections, from the administrative sprawl of Orlando/Orange County. Re the "non-descript one story shacks" that surround this project, what would you have the city do? Take private property by eminent domain? Level these cracker shacks and make College Park look just like Avalon Park? Metrowest? Good grief. So call it "Nimby"ism if you'd like, the label doesn't really matter. There are plenty of other "backyards" for builders to blight and obscure with oversized condo boxes. If the proponents of the Carlyle simply would compromise with the city, and reduce the building's height, the opposition would very quickly dissolve and the project would go up. But, because they want to dictate the terms to the city, and illegally skip the final steps of the approval process, the project is currently dead. Construction costs are going up every single day. If the builder doesn't come to its senses and make a good faith effort to compromise with city leaders, then this project will quickly become economically infeasable and will die.

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I couldn't disagree more. Perhaps from the outside, particularly from the outside, it appears to be a class issue, but no one I spoke to on the issue sees it that way. 69 high end condo units in a city of 25,000 people will not dilute WP's exclusivity. No one motivated to participate in the political process over this issue believes this. The only people advancing an elitist, class-based argument are non-residents, non-voters, and/or connected to the developer financially. The issue is very simply SCALE and CONTEXT. As has been mentioned, there are several other 4 or 5 story projects in various states of completion in and around WP, and even though these are variances from the city's central plan, they have been allowed. What makes this project different is its location and the huge impact it will have on EVERY resident's use and enjoyment of our public space (WP boasts more park space per capita than any other city in Florida!). Residents' objections to the Carlisle center on its length, and its height, and the effect that this size will have upon Central Park. No more sunsets at the bandstand? No direct natural sunlight after 3 PM? No setbacks, no trees on NY Ave? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm grateful that participatory democracy and citizen involvement will guide redevelopment in WP. As much as this forum is slanted toward the mantras of density and urbanization, not all projects are correct for all areas, simply because someone wants to build it. Central planning and citizen involvement have shaped WP for over 100 years - the oldest planned community in Florida. That the residents have a different vision than non-residents for the city's evolution isn't a case of NIMBYism or elitism - its simply an outgrowth of careful forethought and planning that have created a sense of place unequaled anywhere in Central Florida. One need not look further than College Park to see what an overscaled, out of context hulk can do to an otherwise quaint area. The fight isn't over - I predict it will be built eventually, but its scale will be reduced to something that fits its surroundings - or it will remain the pipedream it remains today.

Another thumbs up vote for both Bravissimo and LunchBox. Honorable mentions go to Urban Flats (esp for their wines, Winter Park), sushi at Fuji Shushi (also WP). For a steak experience I vote Houston's. For a cheap and yummy lunch you can't go wrong at Stardust. Vietnamese try Ba Le on Mills. For a nice yet uber-trendy experience, check out the new Luma on Park (Park Avenue). And for best pizza, my vote goes to Mellow Mushroom (WP). Winter Park is the place to (b)eat !