eastbank

First, Amtrak is a Federal entity, and the City cannot force Amtrak (an economically failing entity) to action. The petition drive has already ended successfully and there will be 2 votes: whether city money may be spent at all on any LR station, and also whether such station should be located in the CBD. The simplified argument against LR: City Taxpayer Costs, Commuter Parking Needs, & Impact on Central Park. Polling data indicates the vast majority of WP residents will NOT use the system to commute (less than 2%). It will mainly serve commuters in outlying suburbs. To build such a station, property taxes for ALL WP residents will increase, forever. Constructing a LR station on the CSX tracks will also pave over a portion of our prized park. Commuters seeking to enter the LR system in WPK will add traffic and consume parking spaces in the retail district without contributing to the retail economy. The increased parking will also destroy greenspace. And the polling data indicates that those that shop on the Avenue overwhelmingly will still arrive by private car, and will not take public transport to shop at the boutiques. We don't even have answers to many imporant questions. There is not even any indication that LR will run on the weekends -- during WPK's busiest visitor days. There is little to no info available about the noise impact on the park and traffic impact of train traffic. Would other areas of Winter Park, like WP Village, be more suitable for a rail stop? How will our police department be impacted? What additional security is necessary? What ancillary costs will residents have to fund? Is the purpose of a Commuter Rail Stop in Winter Park for tourism or is it for "commuting residents to the urban core?" There needs to be a lot of discussion and planning before WP simply jumps aboard without knowing the costs/impacts. Its a nice idea, but we need to plan to deal with the reality, not the fairytale.

Lots of people had a "hunch" that Marchman would be easily re-elected and that the Carlyle would already have been built. So much for hunches! I guess there are more than a "few" Winter Park residents that agree with the Stong/OneWinterPark platform. Indeed, those "few" turned out to be the majority. It is too bad you cannot see democratic self-determination as anything but "narcissistic arrogance." Thankfully, as an independent municipality in a democratic nation, Winter Park residents who wish to preserve the historic character of their city, will not have growth mangement and transport planning issues dictated to them by self-centered urban sprawl commuters, county bureaucrats, or class-warfare socialists.

When an election is held, as it will be (I signed the petition and it has since been certified), and the residents/taxpayers decide the issue for themselves, you will see what the majority position is. Ask Kip Marchman about that "outspoken minority" !! LOL! Eckbert and Storer are the next to go. When did you become a pollster capable of determining what the minority/majority position is, *without* a democratic election? Have no fear. Democracy will function and the voters will be heard, one way or another.

Your conclusions about a light rail stop in WPK, though seemingly intuitive, are not supported by the data Orange County has shown so far. If WPK opts out of having a light rail stop, it won't be because of "a few sour grapes," it will be because the *majority* of residents democratically voted against it. Further, WPK electing not to have a LR stop will NOT "kill" the project. No part of the coming LR system is dependent on WPK's participation.

Yes. And you can see a massive air conditioning unit sitting on the roof from far away. Ugly.

I love the Wellesly in College Park, too, not in Winter Park.

They need raise only 5.5M through donations, not 18. Furthermore, if this park-expanding, village-scale-preserving deal falls through, the Carlyle won't simply "go up." The city WILL deny final approval, and the developers will sue the city, as a last resort. The city, and concerned residents, will easily tie it up in court for another 2 or 3 years. Because of the material departures from the originally approved plans, I predict that is a case the developers will lose. People have been saying it "WILL" be built for nearly a half decade now. Funny, I haven't seen one shovel of dirt moved yet. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Resistance to the corrupt profiteering cabal is far from over. Amazing how adamant people are that developers should have the right to build anywhere they want, despite the organized opposition of the majority of residents and taxpayers .... and that they should have a right to exploit and overdevelop on LAND THAT THEY DO NOT EVEN OWN!!

Good question. The answer is that the project received *preliminary* approval from a P&Z board corrupted by the influence of people like Alan Keen, Hal Kantor, Doug Guetzloe, and Kip Marchman. Read the Orlando SEntinel to learn what kind of upstanding citizens this people are. And truth be told, that preliminary approval did NOT meet the requirements of the City's Comprehensive Master Plan. The people spoke up. The politics changed. So, too, did the final plans for the building. They increased the size by over 30,000 sq feet! Thus, the P&Z board has recommended DENIAL of final approval. If we weren't careful and thoughtful, we'd be stuck with a huge ugly dryvit box that is completely out of place, such as on Edgewater in College Park. Thank GOD the voters in WPK spoke up. I still don't see why people who don't have any connection to WPK are soooo up in arms about residents guiding development as they see fit.

Simply, the entire point to this situation is: NO YOU CANNOT.

I think you pro-development at any cost people are missing essential elements to the story. The mayor was *elected* _specfically_ on the issue of the Carlyle and protecting Central Park. The *majority* of WP voters support his vision for controlled growth and limitations on building proximate to the park. Furthermore, not ONE CENT of taxpayer money would be spent to pay off the developers. Strong called on members of the community to voluntarily contribute - and put their $$ where their mouth is, if you will. He followed that call by donating $100,000 of his own personal money. He is to be comended for his altruism, fulfilling his promise to voters, and standing up to those that would pave over public space for personal profit. Finally, as a bonus, WPK residents would get: a brand new post office, a brand new expanded library, and Central Park itself would gain 33% more acreage. All financed by the sale of the current, valuable library parcel and donations. Winter Park loves this idea. The only people not pleased are those that sought personal profit from the Carlyle project. The way this board villifies and denigrates democratic self-determination, careful planning, and misstates or glosses over essential facts is just unbelievable. One wonders why, since most posters don't even live in WPK.

The most amusing thing about pro-development, non-WP residents, is that they have this sanctimonious attitude that theirs is the correct position, not only for themselves and Orange County, but for Winter Park. Its as if these self-appointed experts think they know better and know more than the people that ACTUALLY live in this city 24/7/365 and pay taxes. This condescending attitude won't play well with the people you're trying to "educate" (brainwash?). But you're welcome to try and come into town as an outsider and spend loads of $$ on money to try and convince us to vote for something YOU want. Kind of how Hal Kantor and Doug Guetzloe, Orlando's biggest sleazes, thought they could "educate" us with illegal campaign advertisements. We, the ignorant "NIMBY" WP'ers, were just ignorant and couldn't see what a great boon to our town the Carlyle would have been! Well, you know the upshot of that story by now (or should). Kip Marchman got fired. Onewinterpark came to prominence. And the voting residents of WP got an early Xmas present: the Carllyle is dead!! This is democracy in action, and the will of the residents triumphing over greedy, pushy, unethical developers and pressure from outside sources. WP's desire to preserve its cherished park space, and not pave over it for a rail station for non-residents, will not 'KILL' the rail project. IF you're upset you won't be able to ride a train to our shopping district, you have the option of driving there, as in the past, or not coming at all. We'll find some way to carry on, so don't worry too much about us or the holy rail project. Rail will be built, and the residents will decide if the impact on OUR city is acceptable or not. Of the two upcoming votes, I will vote FOR allowing the city to pay $$ for a rail station, but I will vote AGAINST placing such a station anywhere near Central Park. We didn't fight long and hard to kill the Carlyle so that it can be replaced by a concrete commuter park'n'ride hell.

Surely they don't want to do away with the USPS presence, that's the cornerstone of the buidling's public space. What I was suggesting, and the compromise proposed by Mica and others (though opposed by USPS) would be to put the sort facility elsewhere, while maintaining a USPS retail presence - as a way to reduce the building's bulky size without compromising the amount of lucrative, taxable, condo and retail floorspace. The old proposal called for 4 stories (though in some places, features make it look like 5), with a max height of 67' at the corners. This will likely change before its built. Now its just a question of who/what takes the cut. Clearly, the USPS wants that burden on the developer.

At this late point in the debate, I'd say its a matter of deciding WHO will make the sacrifices necessary to reach the compromise required to get the project started. Without USPS approval, this project is dead. Clearly, the developer would prefer to move the USPS sort functions than to compromise the number of condo units, the retail floorspace, or parking garage. Something will give. But, indeed, hooray to all parties involved standing their ground and not letting a developer dictate the terms, scale, and future of a city to its residents. There are no other buildings of this height or mass that are directly contiguous to the parkspace. I know some people apparently don't care about the special status of this location - in contrast to lots on Fairbanks or Morse or wherever else, but clearly enough do such that the political reality of the situation requires compromise. I'm glad arbitration is ongoing and hope to see a Carlyle soon that everyone can be proud of (... or none at all!). We can afford to be picky. I don't have full renderings, but these 2 images I'd previously saved show the (proposed, no-final-approval, now indefinitely postponed and subject to revision) height and density to scale. Cheers eastbank

Today's OrlandoSentinel article on the ongoing stalemate and growing calls to scale back the Carslyle.... When its all said and done this project will show that new development and preservation of a sense of place are not mutually exclusive -- but only if residents care, get active, keep a close watch, and a tight hold of the leash of the developers. Hooray compromise, planning, and forethought!

People have been in the 'talking' stages of this idea for many, many years. Perhaps now it is finally getting some traction, but I suspect it is still at least a few years off. That is one mixed use project, if done to the right scale and standards (which I have no reason to suspect won't be the case, given the scutiny such a project will get), that would be very exciting for the village center. I'm not sure of the specifics, could it be the proposed 200 condo units to complete the project, or is it the upcoming parking garage perhaps??

OK, so substitute "1 or 2 miles away" for "several miles." Still one hell of a contrast. They won't ever blend in with what College Park was/is, but they'll certainly blend together to form a new reality. Its going to take a while to expect 1-2 or 3 miles to in-fill with multistory development. In the meantime, I suppose someone, somewhere, has decided the College Park is destined to be an "urban" location. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just believe that a good portion of its residents do not share that vision. There is and will be other urban neighborhoods downtown, but there's not likely to ever be another College Park. Oh well. Time moves on, and homogenization continues.

re: the posted pics of the Wellesley Wow - it sure has come quite a long way since I saw it last. I'm struck by the fact that its even taller than I had remembered -- quite a contrast to the surrounding commercial district. The next closest sized buidling - in height and mass - has got to be several miles away (!). I hope they hide that AC unit (2nd to last photo). Cheers eastbank

Thanks, neon9. I haven't seen its progress in a while now and I'm interested to see how it is shaping up.

That's right. My posts are too long, and too thoughtful, and you're too busy to "give a crap" and can't stand having someone comment on your racist and elitist views, so get me banned. Good tactic! And I'm not implying racism in your comments, I'm stating it directly. Some kids yell at your car, and because they have a different color skin, they are automatically "gang bangers." Sad. And by extension, because of this, Hannibal Square is some sort of crime pit ghetto? Sad. And the bungalows are "trash" that need to be "removed"? Elitist. Racist. And you don't want to live next to someone with a different economic status because you're afraid your precious car will be broken into? Yikes. Obviously you have a real problem with people that have a different background than you. You said don't want to live near them, and you apparently feel justified in labeling who and what they are by their skin color and location and income. I don't see why you live in 32789. Given your stated viewpoints on racial and economic diversity, your desire to be around people the same as you, your fear for your car, etc., it seems you would be much happier in some beige box in a subdivision in the 'burbs where everyone makes the same amount of money as you. Or Baldwin Park. Congrats on being an "insider." I'm glad you are in the minority here. You've got way too many issues and this forum is no place to voice those issues. I'm not really interested in your opinion on me personally, and the forum is not the place to attack me personally becuase you don't like by viewpoint on the Carlyle and the Comp. plan. BTW, I have an MAURP. Do you know what that is? Its a Masters in Urban Planning. It means that I might know a thing or two about the subject. It also means that if I don't see the need for a particular discussion about urban planning, its not b/c I don't have an interest in it, its b/c I don't see the point in wasting everyone else's time by mincing words with you personally. I am unimpresssed. You and your MAURP get one vote, and so do I, and so do the blacks in Hannibal Square. Your opinion is not more valid because of some piece of paper. In fact, a vain attempt like that to toot your own horn smacks of elitism. Again. So I'm racist now b/c I complained b/c a group of blacks were shouting at me when I was driving by one night on New England? No, you're a racist because you directly assumed and called them "gang bangers," rather than seeing them just as a bunch of unruly kids. Sad. Anyway, I'm not interested in discussing YOUR zip code, YOUR degrees, YOUR elitism and YOUR race relation issues. If you don't want to "waste everyone's time" on this unimportant topic, email me personally or better yet, just move on with your life like an adult. BACK ON TOPIC: The Carslyle needs to compromise with the new mayor, the majority of voters, and the comp. plan, and undergo final approval. Until then, you can stomp your feet and call people names, yell nimby, try to get me banned, whatever...it won't be built until SOME compromise is made. End of story. Cheers eastbank

If my posts are too long for you or cover too much detail, feel free not to read them or participate in the discussion. If you are so irritated and offended by someone who feels passionately about a subject posting to a group to have an intelligent discussion with other urban planning minded folks, then why participate? I see no need to villify or insult me personally because you disagree, or "don't give a crap." That's the difference between you and me I suppose. I DO "give a crap." I see no need to straighten out your twisted and somewhat racist views on dynamicism and electicism, since you "don't give a crap" and seem to be so worked up that you cannot post on the subject without using insults and profanities. Leave the urban planning discussion for people who DO care, and who can discuss a subject like an adult.

Great - please enjoy yourself, just don't let the sight of a few black faces (ghetto thugs??) scare you so much that you RUN back to the perfect, multicultural, "hip" utopian crowd at Hue. Who knew that an independent municipality having a Comprehensive Plan would make so many non-residents angry, bitter, hostile, and critical !!

"Not in my back yard." Which I really do not think applies here, because as has been said again and again, I'm not against ANY of the current projects, I only object to elements that do not comply with the Comprehensive Plan, and the developer's attempts at circumventing the approval process. "Nimby" is a cliched acronym that is thrown about - in this case, without any regard to the facts. It is usually applied when people object to something like an airport or a nuke plant or a prison being built in their community. To apply it to objections over arcitectural or procedural details to a luxury condo - one of several already approved - is innaccurate and misleading. It is a weak attempt to dismiss counterarguments by labeling them with a perjorative, without addressing ANY of the substance of the discussion. On Baldwin Park's: yes, it is MUCH more homogeneous, very "safe," very white, and very upper middle class. Some people prefer to be around only people just like themselves. As with much of the rest of this discussion, to each his own. If you need to see white faces to feel "safe," and need an "urban" Publix to feel "hip," to each his own. I personally don't find that very "dynamic." Back on topic, however, NIMBYism has as much to do with the Carslyle as Inter-class struggle and the Hale-Bopp comet, which is to say, nothing.

JRS1 is the person that said they didn't like sunsets or the sun. And we're not all yuppies in WP - not by a long shot (though the image people perceive is one of exclusivity and wealth). That's what makes it dynamic, to me. Unlike someplace like Baldwin Park, where everyone earns the same salary, pays the same mortgage, and drives the same car, here in WP we have blacks, we have whites, we have ultrawealthy and borderline poverty all within sight of each other. I love the eclectic mix - a historic bungalow next to a lakefront mansion, a soul food restaurant across from a yuppie wine bar. Real estate capitalists next to artists' galleries. Dynamic! Do check out the splash fountain this summer. Its a pretty cool addition to Shady Park!

You just said that Thorton Park has evolved in the past decade, but you don't see what's dynamic about it. Dynamic means something that is ever changing, energetic, evolving... By your definition, every single location in Central FLA is "dynamic." By my definition, there has to be more to a place than a condo and a Starbucks and constant construction for it to be "dynamic." Winter Park hasn't changed that much in the past decade. It's exactly what you are fighting for with the towering 5 story buildings. No change, no progress, no evolution. You've misread the intent of my posts. I am completely in favor of change and progress. But in a delicate, village context, with a unique sense of place, I favor consideration, thought, and planning over change for the sake of change. I'm in favor of the Carlisle. Just as soon as they tweak the design to comply with the Comprehensive Plan and undergo the final approval process. But not until then. And of course WP hasn't changed much in the past decade, when compared to Celebration, Baldwin Park, or the until recently completely deserted downtown of Orlando. It has evolved *slowly* over 130 years. Its not for everyone. Thats OK with me. Part of Hannibal Square has been removing the outskirts of the black community to put in interior decorating shops, a wine store, etc. How is that keeping or making things culturally diverse? Pushing Park Ave west does not maintain the cultural integrity of the area. It's just more of the same stuff for a couple more blocks. That's absurd. No one is "removing" the black community. As has already been mentioned, the city sponsors street festivals celebrating the neighborhood's culture, a cultural history museum is coming up, low income housing has been built to retain the area's existing residents, and the community center is being expanded. Among many other things. I see no reason why adding retail to New England Ave necessarily excludes non-white cultures. I see a revitalization project that has been respectful, mindful, and helpful to the west side. It is progress, and we're all for that, right? Or is progress now suddenly bad? Or should the city not have taken steps to integrate the historic community into the revitalization project? Or should we have just let it continue to rot into blight? Are you saying that revitalization and African American culture is mutually exclusive ?!? IMO, The city is doing the right thing, and doing it well - with thought and respect. Who would have thought that people in 2006 are unwilling to accept the idea that a neighborhood can integrate more than one race without someone "being forced out" or a race war starting. Like I said, absurd. There's room for everyone in Hannibal Square's future. Just because it has history doesn't mean it is segregated or chained to the past. Winter Park (a whole city) has more to do than Thorton Park (a neighborhood) in Orlando. There is more culture in all of Winter Park than there is in a few blocks of Thornton Park. Apples and Oranges. There is more cultural diversity and things to do in Hannibal Square than all of Thornton Park. Oranges to oranges. That's my opinion. Enjoy your Oak trees at sunset. They make me sneeze. I would rather drive to Clearwater or better yet, Marco Island to see the sun set. Thanks, I will! (Thankfully no allegy problems here). I prefer to walk to the park than to get in the car and fight I4 traffic, but to each his own, mate. Cheers eastbank

There is something ironic in attacking Thornton Park for its "yuppie-ish" qualities and yet praising the gentrification of blighted Hannibal Square. I didn't praise the gentrification of Hannibal Square as much as I noted the respectful manner with which the city of WP has addressed redevelopment. Orlando didn't have this concern during the gentrification of TP, as all it had to do was kick out the homeless - move the shelter, and ban the food kitchen from distributing near Lake Eola. Oh how respectful!! Admitting Thornton Park's dynamicism is unnecessary, for it is an extension of Orlando's beautiful Lake Eola and a seemless transition into downtown Orlando. Admitting? How about a simple example. I think "dynamicism" is a definition we also do not agree on. Lake Eola is more of a southerly extension of Lake Eola Heights, IMO, than it is an extension of Thornton Park. And beautiful? Well, its nicer than it was, but the current bird poo problem and the dyed-blue water and piped in muzak are very, um, Disney-esque. As in pre-fab. Fake. History aside (and that is questionable, though I like how you encompassed all of Eatonville and Hurston's accomplishments into the equation) History was the point of the post, as well as culture. Eatonville is distinct from Hannibal Square, but not as much as you imply. They are directly contiguous and have the same resident demographics and shared history. Thornton Park/South Eola District is not only a better built environment now, with renovated historic structures as well as condos, restaurants, shops, etc., but its current proposals and u/c developments (including an urban Publix) only further set it apart as metro Orlando's hippest district. Umm, so I'm to be criticized for mentioning Eatonville in the same context as Hannibal Square in reference to history and culture, yet somehow you've now incorporated the Lake Eola Heights and South Eola District into "Thornton Park" ? Nope. Wrong neighborhood. And as far as "hip" goes, if you define "hipness" by the presence of a Publix(??) and condo towers that have not yet been built, than we do not have the same definition of "hip." That's fine, its a subjective matter. But the presence of a Publix won't make Thornton Park any more racially, economically, or culturally diverse. And its pretty hard to be hip when everyone and everything is the same. But to each his own I suppose, Indeed!! so while I'm at Hue's happy hour sipping martinis with my friends of all backgrounds, you can play in the Hannibal Square splash fountain as a gesture to show how white citizens of Winter Park now embrace the black citizens on the wrong side of the tracks. My my, how bitter! I'm surprised you didn't post a pic of you posing with your black friends to substantiate how diverse the crowd at Hue (barf) is! Your cynical comment on the splash fountain aside, I see revitalization projects that take into account an area's historical and cultural context as a good thing. I suppose that isn't a consideration while you hang out at Hue, since there was never anything there to be mindful of or respectful toward. If you must denigrate, insult, and look down upon someplace as inferior to feel good about downtown Orlando/Thornton Park, please, by all means, look down your nose at Hannibal Square and all of Winter Park. I suppose we'll never know the joy of a yuppie-trap in a concrete and dryvit box. We'll get over it. In the meantime, I don't see this "discussion" going anywhere constructive.