jthomas

Yeah, I'm not sure. I've driven past the site a couple times in the past week. It certainly still seems possible that retail could be integrated into the street frontage. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there has been a bait-and-switch in this department. What bugs me the most about the overall design of the project is that while parking is integrated into the base of the hotel structure itself (as far as I can tell), the vehicular circulation ramps are located in the standalone deck portion. Which means the standalone portion can't be demolished without abandoning the parking directly under the hotel, which means we are probably stuck with this cheap piece of crap for a very long time. It wouldn't have been so bad if the deck had been built to the quality of the original design, instead of the monument to mediocrity that is actually going up.

Yes - this is all great news. I highly doubt that SOB will get any taller, but it doesn't have anything to do with demand. I would bet the farm that these apartments will be 5-over-1 podium buildings - in other words, 5 stories of wood framed apartments over 1 story of non-combustible construction. This is a relatively cost-effective construction method, and 6-7 stories is the practical limit due to building codes. Anything taller needs to be all steel or concrete, which is more expensive. I don't know that they'd be able to get the rents necessary to support the higher construction cost. It's great to see several projects in the works - I'd love to see 10 more just like them.

@kermit's summary is correct. Unfortunately, a story like this is red meat to a certain segment of the media, and to those who want to see government waste and incompetence around every corner. Why those same folks don't get worked up over egregious waste in highway construction (like how I-40 in Durham County was widened 15 years ago, immediately fell apart, and now the repair is falling apart; or how I-40 in Davie County has been under perpetual construction for 10 years rebuilding a rebuild) - that's up to the reader's interpretation.

The tracks have actually been removed - that will be redeveloped as an extension of the A&Y Greenway, which will run from where the greenway currently end behind Target all the way downtown to intersect the Downtown Greenway. Some manner of intersection redesign will be part of that project. Don't know the exact timeline, but I think it may start soon-ish. Your larger point still stands though. Development in Greensboro is still car-first, with people as an afterthough. The Lawndale-Pisgah-Martinsville area is already a mess, and I don't see pedestrian experience being a priority for any of the actors involved in the current development (including the city).

To me, it is very disappointing that Davie Street will be lined by ugly parking decks for over two long blocks. It totally kills any hope of a pleasant pedestrian experience, regardless of whatever retail gets stuck into the cheap-looking snap-together deck. I spent a lot of time walking around downtown recently. Elm Street is fantastic, but if you go even a block off Elm in any direction it's like the twilight zone - nothing but parking craters. It's almost like Elm Street is Main Street at Disney World, and the rest of downtown is the back-of-house stuff that nobody is supposed to see. Downtown has a LONG way to go to be a true urban neighborhood, and projects built in the manner of the Westin (parking-dominated, poor street interaction) are not going to help it get there.

I fully agree about O'Henry Boulevard. It is a substandard, dangerous, and redundant freeway that damages and divides the communities it passes through. I would like to see it reconstructed as a slow-speed surface boulevard, complete with wide sidewalks, protected bike lanes, and on-street parking. This redesign could serve as a catalyst to heal some of the past urban planning sins in east Greensboro. I would do this redesign from the Summit Avenue intersection all the way down to 40/85. Conversely, the section of 29 north of Summit should be fully limited access, which would involve eliminating some intersections between Cone and 840. Sometimes I also think about removing the Wendover "freeway" between Holden and Battleground, although I'm less certain about that idea. Wendover is pretty useful for crosstown travel. But in an ideal world, crosstown travel would be far less necessary, because development patterns would allow people to shop and dine in their own neighborhood, rather than needing to drive to a big box store on the edge of town.

While not arguing your broader point, the 74 route to Wilmington won't quite be expressway all the way, even after the Rockingham bypass is done. There is still one stoplight in Laurel Hill, between Hamlet and Laurinburg. This light can cause miles-long backups on summer Saturdays ("moving day" at the beach). There are also quite a few intersections east of Lumberton that are not grade-separated. PS - Every time I take this route down to Brunswick County, I think about how stupid it is that I-74 is supposed to terminate in Myrtle Beach, but via a different route than I-73, which will also extend to Myrtle Beach. Seriously - look at the planned route. It's like I-74 is repelled from its logical terminus in Wilmington by a force field: It would make much more sense for I-73 to go Myrtle Beach, I-74 to go to Wilmington, and for I-140 to be extended as a US 17 bypass from Wilmington to the Carolina Bays Parkway in Myrtle Beach (which is currently planned to become I-74). The only silver lining I see is that completing I-74 seems to be a low priority for both NC and SC, so there is still time to correct this mistake.

From what I’ve heard, the idea of renovating the old jail building was explored. Unfortunately, it is essentially a concrete bunker, and retrofitting it for modern telecommunications would be very expensive and potentially not at all feasible. Tearing it down and building a new building is actually cheaper than renovating the old structure. PS - If you like this tear down, then you’ll really like what happens when the new sheriff’s office is complete. The plan is to tear down the current sheriff’s office (historic house on Eugene Street + Otto Zenke-designed building behind) and replace it with - a surface parking lot! Greensboro urbanism is on a roll lately!

Even if they do go with the nicer design, that glass corner would be facing the parking lot, not the street, at least according to the site plan. The street frontage will likely get a blank wall. It also seems like the city threw away most of its leverage to get a better project by unanimously supporting the proposal last night. I think it's a pipe dream to think that Lidl would attempt a mixed-use project on their own here, regardless of what they've done in other places. Although they've got 7 (!) years to start construction, so who knows. All of that being said, it is good to see a grocery store going to an area that really needs one. Could be a nice amenity to support residential growth in the surrounding area.

Link to email city council and city manager: https://www.greensboro-nc.gov/government/city-council/e-mail-city-council Let them know what you think!

The suburban mindset runs deep in this town, unfortunately...

Yes, it would be a shame to lose a landmark building that could be repurposed with a little vision. I suspect that the reason is parking - it seems all new developments these days are primarily car storage facilities with incidental uses for humans attached. Evidently it's too much to expect people to walk even a couple of blocks in an urban environment to get from where they park to their destination, so every new development has to have its own massive parking deck.

It is a charmless arena for sure. Bland exterior, anonymous setting, confusing and disconnected concourses. I have probably been to 100 events there over the years and still can't learn to like it. I was at the State-Wake game last night, and the best thing I can say is that the exit from the parking lot was speedy (although, the home team's performance isn't helping the experience these days!). So, hearing that the Pack (and Canes) may move on to better digs is making my day today.

Thanks! As a State grad, I know folks have been pining for an on-campus arena almost ever since PNC opened, but I have not heard any serious plans about doing so at the end of PNC's life span. I think a 14-15k arena on campus, like JPJ Arena at UVA, would be perfect for State. I'd love to see it on the main campus - I'd put it where the track/soccer stadium is now, so it would be adjacent to the Coliseum deck and close to a future commuter rail station. But I fear that they will stick it on Centennial for better highway access instead.

Interesting to hear about the arena replacement - are you referring to the block that currently contains the amphitheater? It really makes sense to pair the arena with the convention center. Do you know if NCSU has interest in playing in a downtown arena?

You are so right, and unfortunately it's going to get worse, since NCDOT plans to reroute US 70 along the entirety of Wendover through Greensboro. Sometimes I try to imagine what it would be like to completely remove the Wendover "freeway" you mentioned. Its function could be replaced by the parallel Green Valley Road. Likely, what you would see is what has happened in other cities that removed urban highways - rather than overcrowding other roads, much of the traffic simply disappears as people find new travel patterns. One can dream...

Perhaps this pause will give a chance to consider whether the Silver Line, as currently proposed, is really the right solution. I think 20+ miles is too long for a light rail line, especially one that seems primarily designed for suburban-to-core service, rather than providing mobility for close-in urban areas. It seems especially wasteful to me, given that nearly the entire alignment closely parallels existing railways. This seems like a repeat of the 1970s mistakes of MARTA, BART, et al - building incompatible and duplicate infrastructure. I'd have to think you could buy the entire CSX line, double-track it, and run regional trains at 15 minute frequencies for far less than $8 billion dollars. Or alternately, if the city of Charlotte has to go it alone for local funding anyway, why not redistribute the same route mileage within the city itself? 20+ route miles added in the central part of the city would cover a lot of territory and create an actual functional rail network that could facilitate transit use over a much broader area of the city.

Apologies for the paywall, but it looks like CSX wants to build a new freight yard near Sanford: https://www.bizjournals.com/triad/news/2022/01/25/csx-lee-county-sanford-rezoning-rail-yard.html The site is located roughly where the CSX S-Line and the ACWR (?) cross. This yard is close to an interchange with the line that will serve the new Toyota plant near Greensboro, and is also positioned near any development that happens at the Chatham and Moncure megasites. I am curious about what this means for a couple of things: - the rumored commuter service from Sanford to Raleigh (which would use the S-Line) - the trackage between Sanford and Greensboro, currently owned by NS. The NCRR is a partner in the development of the Toyota site, and it seems like CSX is banking on handling some of that traffic. Will the state buy the line?

I found an interesting blog post that expands on some of the ideas I mentioned above. Good read if you're looking for something to do while avoiding work today: https://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2011/12/downtown-is-for-people.html?apcid=0060f5c474b5b5bba4435d00&utm_campaign=012122-friday-fave&utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_source=autopilot

Thanks for the research - very interesting. You are right that the explosion in construction costs makes the equation very unfavorable. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing soon, barring another global recession. IMO, there are fundamental issue in the industry beyond the Covid disruptions that are causing the spiraling costs, and those won't be resolved quickly. You are right to bring the future of the Coliseum into the discussion. I think the Coliseum is a fantastic asset for Greensboro - due to the size of the facility and Greensboro's central location in NC, we land a lot of shows and events that might not otherwise come to a metro this size. But, trends in arena design have shifted pretty dramatically in a different direction. Modern facilities have somewhat smaller seating capacities, but with large varieties of premium seating options. They are being located in walkable urban areas, often as anchors for nightlife/entertainment districts. While overall I think the Coliseum facilities are relatively good, they are located in a sea of surface parking in the middle of an industrial area. And of course, facilities require constant maintenance and investment to stay fresh. So, what to do? A modern, downtown arena with 18k seats, connected to a new, larger convention center would be great, but a project like that could easily cost $1B or more. That is laughably out of reach for Greensboro, especially without a major anchor tenant for the arena. So, that leaves investing in the existing facility, and just as crucially, in the surrounding area. However, that is far from an overnight process - like planting a tree, the best time to start is 10 years ago. But I think it is crucial for the city to think seriously about this issue and start making plans. The risk of doing nothing is that eventually events will choose to go elsewhere, leaving the city with a large (and largely empty) liability.

Welcome to UP, @P.SAUNDERS. Would love to hear more of your thoughts on what good growth and leadership looks like. We need more voices in the Triad forum!

Genuine question - what types of events and shows are we missing out on by not having a facility that size? I think it's more likely that a smaller arena would cannibalize events from the Coliseum that currently just use the lower bowl. Even if a downtown arena landed the Swarm and a hockey team, that's less than 100 events total. How many more new (not relocated) events would really come to fill the calendar. I'm just thinking in terms of the opportunity cost. Even at 200 events per year, that's still only 55% of a calendar year with an event, and the building would only be active for a few hours each day. Is that really the best use for what would be a large tract of downtown land? Not to mention the cost - presumably this would be funded by the city, and even a bare-bones arena would likely cost well north of $100M these days. I can think of several less sexy but much more impactful and transformative ways that the city could spend $100M. My larger point is that I believe there needs to be a shift in the way our leaders think about downtown. Right now, it seems like the council (and DGI) think in terms of "what can we do to get more people to visit downtown?" I think this shows an outdated urban/suburban dichotomy, where the assumption is that people will live elsewhere in the city, and occasionally visit downtown for work/dining/entertainment. While that will always be one function of a central district, I think it would be more beneficial to think of downtown as a neighborhood unto itself. What is best for the people who live there, or own a business there? How can we grow the number of people who live downtown? Increasing the number of full-time residents downtown by 7,000 would have a vastly bigger impact than bringing 7,000 people to an event 200 times a year. I recognize that this doesn't have to be an either/or proposition, but I feel that there is not enough attention paid to growing the residential population. I guarantee that if there was a big push to drastically increase residential development in downtown, everything else that people want to see (more restaurants, shops, attractions, towers, etc.) would follow naturally.

Maybe, but this section of trail will feel like an industrial back alley, lined by the backside of buildings. Murals and Christmas lights won't fix that. You can't do much about existing buildings, but new development can be better. At the very least, the building could have been sited differently to allow room for future development along the trail. In fact, the developer has done this very thing at another property along the trail (the Texas Roadhouse on Battleground). The design of this building does not address any of the public frontages (Westover Terrace, Mill Street, greenway), and the way that it is plopped in the middle of the site makes it difficult to do so with any future phase of development.

Really not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but I'm finding it hard to get excited about this. The site plan is horrible. The developer touts the location along the new greenway, but then the greenway frontage consists of - a blank wall and a loading dock? I think that squanders the potential of what an urban trail can be (look at Charlotte's Rail Trail - the new development there has active uses fronting directly onto the trail). And as if a 2-story parking deck wasn't enough, the building is also surrounded by a moat of surface parking. The entire design is centered around the needs of motor vehicles, while the destination for actual human beings is perched precariously on top. But hey, at least it has nice brick? Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but I want better for my hometown.

Elon Law owns pretty much all of the buildings and land in between the blue block and the two large parking garages - that may be what you're thinking of? The blue block is mostly surface parking with a smattering of 1-story buildings. Half of that area is owned by West Market Street UMC. It would certainly be a great area for redevelopment.