Mountain_Junior

First, I think reality pretty clearly proves that your “no one is getting on a bus” statement is wrong. HRT ridership numbers are below. I get the perceived difference in quality between bus and light rail (which I brought up to HRT myself as something they should think about) but maybe rethink the “no one is getting on a bus” statement. Second, why would everyone here know what BRT is? To me that makes as much sense as saying “everyone in Topeka knows what the HRBT is” so I’d like to know why you think BRT would be well understood here when most of the population has never been exposed to it.

Why the bus obsession then?

They are not obsessed with the bus. You are assuming that. First, BRT is different from the normal buses you see operating for HRT. Think of them as light rail on wheels. Google “bus rapid transit” to see what I mean. They often have dedicated travel lanes and priority at lights. They aren’t the lumbering, stuck-in-the-right-lane, stop-every-five-minutes buses you’re imagining. Second, HRT came to the BRT option because their mandate for this project is to extend fast public transit to military circle and naval station Norfolk. That doesn’t necessarily mean light rail though. Unfortunately the costs vs benefit of extending light rail to NSN makes it a politically and economically difficult option, so they are leaning toward a BRT system to accomplish their mandate. I don’t love it either, but I think it’s the best we’ll get.

I agree with you but I think the folks at HRT understand why the ridership is low, however I think they’re forced to use that as one of their criteria for how they rank these options. Unfortunately, the fact is that they have to make a case to council about why one option over another - a case that council members can then make back to their critics and constituents about why they voted to put the city further into debt. It would be political suicide to vote yes on something based on how HRT feels about it without data to justify that feeling. So I think that necessarily anchors HRT to certain metrics: ridership, cost per mile to build, cost per mile per year to operate, etc. I went to one of HRT’s community discussion pop-up things at Ward’s Corner with the exact concerns you mention (ODU, airport, LRT vs BRT, etc) and after spending over an hour talking to them and asking some pointed questions about the project, I was satisfied. I’ll say that I still would prefer to see light rail instead of BRT to the naval base and would love to see ODU connected as well, but after talking to them I felt like at least I understood the many constraints that they are working under to develop this project. And while it doesn’t match with what I had in my mind (which frankly is not based on reality, but on desire), it is the best project we are going to get. So it may not be the perfect gleaming thing we all think we deserve, but whatever form it takes, I feel certain that it’s that way because a bunch of smart, committed professionals tried to deliver the best they could, within the constraints of the political and economic environment, to people who want an expanded transit system. Not trying to tell you how to feel about it, but just wanted to add some other perspective on what I know is a frustrating issue. If you’re able, I’d recommend trying to get to one of their future meetings. I think they enjoy talking through these issues.

Interesting article here on Rockville, MD and their approach to urban renewal and development. It’s germane I think as Norfolk looks at how to tackle things like MacArthur Mall and other locations. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/10/29/a-drive-through-the-ugliest-place-in-maryland-part-2 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Old Dominion will leave Conference USA for the Sun Belt Conference, reports say
By DAVID HALL
October 22 at 4:49 PM ET https://www.pilotonline.com/sports/college/old-dominion/vp-sp-odu-sun-belt-20211022-s2jffjsr4vbendwpgjla5r2x5m-story.html Excerpt:
“It appears Old Dominion plans to change conferences after all. 
ODU is one of four schools expected to be invited to join the Sun Belt Conference as early as next week, multiple media outlets, including CBSSports.com, have reported. 
The Monarchs would join Marshall and Southern Miss in leaving Conference USA. FCS football powerhouse James Madison, which competes in the Colonial Athletic Association, would leave that league and begin competing as an FBS program.”

Norfolk-VB disagreement far predates light rail, by like 50+ years at least, and that’s really just discuss the modern incarnation of VB (the independent city of VB). A quick snapshot of what I mean. This article is from the Virginian-Pilot, Feb 7, 1967. VB had only existed for 4 years at this point. Here’s another from 1974 with a similar sentiment. And Norfolk-VB more than others. Even as Sidney Kellam was trying to consolidate Princess Anne and VB, Norfolk Mayor Fred Duckworth was trying to undermine that merger. It was from literally day one. It’s a bit like in movies and tv shows when two sworn enemies get handcuffed together, so they’re forced to begrudgingly cooperate. Except it’s usually played for laughs. Not so much laughing here.

Patriotic Festival pulls out of VB, will be held Memorial Day weekend in Norfolk https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/virginia-beach/patriotic-festival-pulls-out-of-vb-will-be-held-memorial-day-weekend-in-norfolk/ Excerpt: “After weeks of speculation, Virginia Beach’s Patriotic Festival is set to move to Norfolk from its longtime home on the Oceanfront. … The event, now known as Military Festival, is expected to take place at Town Point Park and Norfolk Scope Arena. … According to an invite, the official announcement is expected Monday morning at Chrysler Hall. … This is the third major event to pull out of Virginia Beach in the past few months – following the Rock ‘n’ Roll Marathon and Something in the Water.”

It’s not that simple though. The problem is that taxpayers do not want their city going into debt for an arena that might sit idle most of the time because there isn’t some pro sports team waiting to move into it. Therefore city councils will often balk at such an idea. However, pro teams often do not want to commit to move to another city based on a “check’s in the mail” promise to build a new stadium. So it’s a very delicate balance.

Nice. I was actually just searching for this the other day after you posted about it.

Heads up on upcoming public meetings on Norfolk’s Multimodal Transportation plan.

They absolutely are. In fact that is even mentioned in the Naval Station Norfolk BRT LRT analysis as a follow on effort. My hope is that once you connect Greenbrier, the Airport, the Naval Base, Military Circle Mall, and the Outlet Mall/IKEA to what you’ve already got, you make it so vital that VB voters view it as something they’d be stupid NOT to approve, lest they risk becoming the city that is left behind when it maybe goes to Portsmouth or something next.

I feel like you read my mind. It really comes off as tone deaf to be like “we hear your ethical/moral complaints, but man look at all this money we made right?” It almost feels like it confirms his concerns in some tangential way.

I sometimes feel like despite all the talk we do about branding around here that this region’s real brand is “unrecognized potential.” Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pharrell Williams won’t bring back Something in the Water festival By STACY PARKER THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT OCT 05, 2021 AT 5:49 PM https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-pharrell-letter-1005-20211005-g3sajmxkrjeulodz4y4xxzs2fm-story.html Excerpt: The city’s leadership learned last week that Pharrell Williams will not bring back the highly successful Something in the Water Festival to Virginia Beach in 2022, and begged him in a letter to reconsider. A few days later, the music superstar, who lived as a child in the city’s Seatack neighborhood, sent a letter back to the city manager, explaining his disappointment with Virginia Beach. Williams wrote that he wished the city had taken a more proactive stance after his cousin Donovon Lynch was shot by a police officer in the resort area last March. Virginia Beach, Williams wrote, has been “run by - and with toxic energy.” “I sang about a room without a roof, but I am tired of kindly and politely being shown the door,” he wrote. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Virginia Beach voters rejected it in 2016. HRT can’t unilaterally extend it to TC or anywhere else in VB, even if they have a dedicated right of way available. It was actually a non-binding referendum but the city council called for it prior to their vote on the matter and treated it as a referendum on how they should vote. https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/article_a36b8dd8-6f6e-5f1e-a101-5b354db544c8.html Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI recommend everyone go to one of the public meetings. I went to the one at Wards Corner yesterday and it was very informative.

Letters for Oct. 1: Hampton Roads’ governmental structure is the problem when it comes to arenas https://www.pilotonline.com/opinion/letters/vp-ed-lets-1001-20210930-bg2wipawtzextgioix5bp76uli-story.html

Recent editorial from the Virginian-Pilot/Daily Press on the Military Circle Mall arena idea: https://www.pilotonline.com/opinion/editorials/vp-ed-editorial-norfolk-arena-0922-20210921-q3q4mzpxhjcojl5khpbuxyxhue-story.html Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you’re right, but it’s more about context, like who you are talking to or where you’re talking. If you’re in Hampton Roads and your telling someone in Hampton Roads where you live, it’s not surprising you’d say something specific like Ghent or Kempsville or Phoebus. But let’s say you’re somewhere else in Virginia or northeastern NC, you’d probably be specific down to the city-level and say Chesapeake, Hampton etc. But if you’re in Topeka or Dallas or somewhere, you might say Norfolk, but then have to add something like “do you know where Richmond is? It’s a little southeast of there” or “if you just picture the Chesapeake Bay, it’s basically the southern shore of that bay” or whatever. If you’re traveling overseas, you even go so far as to say “near DC” because to someone in Italy, that’s as deep as they can relate. I’ve been overseas though, been talking to folks who don’t know the area and had to use the “near DC” description, but then in the group I’m in, someone said “where near DC? I live in Newport News” and immediately we start in with what neighborhood he lives in and I live in like we just met on the VB boardwalk. Bottom line, we all do that with our identification of our community. It’s just easier when dealing with big cities where we also know the names of those boroughs and even some of their sub-units too (Hell’s Kitchen, Greenwich Village, Broadway, etc) to see into that dynamic but it happens here too like everywhere else. I agree with you though, it doesn’t mean this area is less united per se, but I also think we do have a dearth of metropolitan-level or region-level markers of identity. Last point, I don’t think the military has a huge part in the challenges of identity. It’s the cluster of small cities fighting to distinguish themselves and lack of regional/metro area identity markers (think of the NY Yankees logo). Few things around here are called the Hampton Roads _____. It’s the Norfolk Tides, the Hampton Coliseum, the VB Convention center, the Norfolk Airport, the Peninsula Chamber of Commerce, etc so we fail to coalesce around any clear identity because we’re not forced to. In fact we’re forced not to. However, look at Honolulu, Colorado Springs, and San Diego. All huge military populations(SD might have the largest military footprint in the US) without any identity issues. I didn’t even need to include the state and you knew where these places were. Why? Because they are unified metro areas. San Diego has the San Diego Zoo, San Diego Airport, San Diego convention center, San Diego Padres, and the San Diego Union-Tribune. People there are forced to constantly participate in or interact with things that identify them with San Diego, no matter where in the metro area they live. Bottom line, the military is not the problem. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A couple points: 1. “Right of self governance” - again a skewed interpretation that leads to unnecessary apprehension. (I acknowledge that you’re saying the cities have this sense and not that you necessarily think this yourself) Here’s what we have right now: a person from your ward/borough/district of your locality is voted on by you and then goes to represent the interest of that ward/borough/district in the larger locality’s governing body. Here’s what you’d have after consolidation: a person from your ward/borough/district of your locality would be voted on by you and then go to represent the interest of your ward/borough/district in the larger locality’s governing body. It’s the same thing. Bottom line: it’s not a change. Someone from where you live, representing you would be on your locality’s governing body. This is simply a faulty pretext for opposing consolidation. (Again, I understand not your feelings personally) 2. “Everyone from politicians to normal citizens tend to bristle at the idea.” This is not true. Certainly some do, but an actual survey done on this very question by ODU for their 2000 State of the Region report found greater than 50% support across Hampton Roads and 50% or greater support in all of the seven cities except Hampton and Suffolk, which were close. And this survey’s sample size was sufficient to give a 95% confidence level of the results, with a 3% margin of error. This means that while merger’s not overwhelming popular, to say it’s unpopular is clearly wrong. (https://digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1154&context=sor_reports) Also, keep in mind that it had 50% support despite the question being asked on the survey was if people supported the merger of the 14 cities and counties of Hampton Roads, a scenario so unreasonable and impractical, I would’ve probably said no. Moreover, in the 2001 State of the Region Report (https://digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1148&context=sor_reports), it was reported that in the intervening year “Several elected officials reported being dumbfounded by that result, as they had heard only from individuals who opposed merger.” Although this nugget was buried in the report, it speaks volumes: those who either support consolidation or are open to this idea are far more widespread than most expect. Likewise, the 2014 HRPDC study (called Envision Hampton Roads) based on interviews and surveys reported that: “The survey finds that the majority of the region’s residents would prefer that Hampton Roads be more open to change than they believe it is today [and] … that the region should not hold back progress to preserve the independence of our individual cities and counties…” Unfortunately, because the idea of consolidation is not well-defined and because opposition to it is, people won’t defend it in public. It’s too amorphous and complex. And people genuinely misunderstand what is being discussed. I doubt most folks reading this have actually looked up and read the VA state codes dealing with it. Which is understandable, but it means there is lots of confusion, misunderstanding, and misinformation about it. Last thing, consolidation has actually had the approval of lots of political leaders and prominent citizens over the years, including mayors and city council members - it’s just usually not while they’re in office. (I’ll provide a list if you like) So I disagree that it’s unpopular. I just think that the opposition is loud and the issue is poorly defined and misunderstood. 3 “Maybe one day after such a borough system has been in place…” - A borough system *is* consolidation. There is no borough system without consolidating localities. This actually proves my point above and I think most folks would say something similar. You’re saying you like the benefits that would come from a borough system, but a merger sounds too extreme. This is because two things are happening here: (1) you intuitively recognize as most do the obvious benefits of our cities not applying their energy and resources to hurting each other and the benefits that come from working together, but (2) the idea of merger has been poisoned by talk of lost identity, higher taxes, and many other undesirable things. That linkage with those undesirable things is very much on purpose so that you don’t even consider consolidation an option, and that way the status quo of middling, mediocre, and unremarkable political leadership you’ve got now feels like the best you’ll get. My point is that the more you study consolidation and it’s benefits, the more you start to realize the borderline criminal squandering of our region’s potential that has taken place over the last 60-70 years, all so that people in power can stay in power. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tying identity to independence is a tactic used by those who would not benefit from a unified city here (e.g. local politicians and those that support them). It’s not true but to many people it seems to make sense, despite numerous examples to the contrary. Ever heard of Hollywood? Brooklyn? Queens? Little Italy? All communities that thrive despite being part of a larger city. Lots of examples in HRVA too: Ghent, Kempsville, Phoebus, Churchland, Deep Creek, and Pungo are all communities that at some point became part of a larger city and they all have thriving identities and unique characters. So to answer your question: yes it is B.S. Also, about the “why isn’t it attainable?” It is. Consolidation is a legal mechanism allowed by VA law(§ 15.2-3500). When the majority of voters in two or more adjacent localities approve, it can happen. It’s a joining together of equal entities. It’s not annexation and it’s not one city absorbing another. Moreover, there is no way for politicians or anyone else to stop it or say it can’t happen. (In fact VA law says that if local leaders won’t move forward after a petition has been submitted to the locality, the circuit court will issue an order to hold the vote on consolidation) It’s only a matter of political will and anyone who says it won’t happen is just telling you their cynical prediction of the future, not a fact of law. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is spot on. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cross post from Hampton Roads transportation in case some here don’t read that thread. Looking for some help confirming the truth or falsehood of a rumor I heard the other day at church. This guy said he was under the impression that Pharrell was requiring/requesting that VB hold another vote on light rail as part of the overall agreement to continue hosting the Something in the Water festival in VB. I did some searching and can find nothing supporting or denying it. It sounds like a “wouldn’t it be nice if...” that maybe got repeated enough times, but I don’t know for sure. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looking for some help confirming the truth or falsehood of a rumor I heard the other day at church. This guy said he was under the impression that Pharrell was requiring/requesting that VB hold another vote on light rail as part of the overall agreement to continue hosting the Something in the Water festival in VB. I did some searching and can find nothing supporting or denying it. It sounds like a “wouldn’t it be nice if...” that maybe got repeated enough times, but I don’t know for sure. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One more point on these sports/stadium efforts. What bugs me is folks who look at this list and still think that pep talks and “let’s all work together you guys” statements will make the region work together, like previous generations just didn’t want it bad enough. This list makes it pretty clear that harmful competitive behaviors and the my-city-first mentality are not confined to any politician, any single initiative, any locality, or any time period. It’s a structural issue that is baked into our political environment and it won’t change until the structure does. That is all. Thank you for attending my TED Talk. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk