The Voice of Reason

Think of this whole concept more like a car. yes a very expensive car but a car. You own your 1989 Taurus wagon outright. it gets you to work it might complain but it works. maintenance costs have increased over the last few years but you have paid for them out of layalty to your old friend the taurus wagon. your kids have grow up some and they need a little more room in the back seat. not a lot but it would be nice to have. The value of your car might be 1500 if your lucky and it just reached 120000 miles. The 60k tune up is going to cost you 900 dollars and you need brake work too. Is it worth prolonging the death of your old taurus or should you buy a new car with more room and better safety features. At some point the answer is buy new. For Hartford we are at the point of shopping for something new. if you read the article you will see 2013 mentioned quite a few times. I get the feeling the city cant do anything till 2013 without breaking a lease agreement. So for the next 5 years the city is going to work towards getting a new arena planned funded and built. And the cornerstone of this plan is getting a pro team. So to me this is the city actually planning ahead. and I am impressed.

That is a very good question, but generally I would say that urban core is not a place to easily travel by car. I do not know how much time you have spent driving in other urban cores, but from my experience I do not expect easy access to anything. All that matters to me is easy access to a parking garage, then I walk the 4 blocks or whatever. I think CT being rural in mind set, and suburban in practice make for unreasonable expectations for cities. From my life experiences, commutes around Hartford are not bad at all compared to other places. Downtown traffic is only ever bad when the morons who do not know how to deal with a city grid panic in an attempt to get home and pull into intersections creating grid lock. but back to your question, yes it would make that trip more difficult. I would turn north from union station take a right onto church. follow church to Ann, Hang a left at the new Arena and a right onto South Chapel St. this would take me over to main street where its always easy to take a right or I could stay on Chapel untill Market and park in the garage. I park in the garage to be leveled, and there is almost never a car on that street. The only traffic comes from people coming and going to the garage. With the street and garage gone I do not think it would be a problem. Also Bill, I checked out TD Banknorth arena in Boston, AA arena in Miami the Delta center, and agree, it seems only Staples in huge. I would say a footprint for 120% of MSG would be pretty accurate for modern round arena. I gotta check the one in Utah as that one is round if I recall, but that will have to wait till I am home.

Bill, nice work. It looks like you are using Virtual Earth at 100Yds. I just went and looked at Staples Center in LA. It is MUCH larger than MSG. It was built in 1999. MSG was built in 1968. I know they did some major renovations at MSG, but it might be better to use Staples center for footprint comparison. I can't get that at 100 yds so Im just blowing hot air here. I am thinking the arena itself would abut directly against the street or pedestrian plaza to the south. I also think it would be a pedestrian only street that would connect Allyn to Pratt for the movement of people not for cars. I see walking from Sage Allen area bars after work to arena bars just before the game or just after the game across a Trumbull streeet with trees down the middle. but I see myself walkng streight avross trumbull to this imaginary street. hehe

more articles in the courant today and this picture looks like the casino is hiring 2000 and related businesses(like boutiques and resturants) are hiring 1000 more. I expect to see a population spike in the 2010 census

at first shake I thought that too, but I now think they are generic space holders for Cityplace I and The Goodwin tower. I just looked again and they appear behind H-21 and also why would all of the other generic blocks in that rendering represent 280 Trumbull, 100 Pearl, cityplaceII etc. but they would exclude City place I and Goodwin in liu of two other buildings. I think any new verticle development here will come on the parking lot for Metrocenter.

When I first read the article and read about the arena moving North and mentioned the extention of Allyn, I think I might have been a little premature. If Lary G. is as involved as I assume he would be, Pratt is more important to him than Allyn. He has a significant financial investment and a large amount of vacant retail up Pratt. So unless this pedestrian road directly connected Pratt to Allyn, I am not sure it would line up with Allyn. Also Pratt being further south gives more room to fit the larger civic center. Remember the new arena will have a much larger foot print. I am not sure how much space it will take up. I suspect that one of the arenas entrances woul open onto this street if it is in the plans to maximize pedestrian traffic.

Sadly Lary G does not own that much of it. But luckily he owns the closest bit. The surface lots next to the Church Street garage that abut Ann street either the city owns, or it is confident it can get them. The arena will cover them. But the darkest colored surfact lot across Ann street is owned by Lary G. As is the office building and parking garage to the West of that. I am thinking that if the arena is built where they say it will be, Lary G will use this surface lot for more housing and entertainment venues to keep visitors and their money downtown. Most of the stuff he owns is actually buildings. Just south of the arena he owns The Goodwin, City place II, but not City place I, and of course Hartford 21. To the East he owns the grey roofed building that runs 3/4th of the way along the North side of Pratt Street. To the West he owns the building Agave is in on the corner of Ann and Allyn. I'm not sure what else he may own immediately around the Arena, but thats a pretty good concentration. I would not be too suprised if a few properrties changed hands if there was going to be such a large project downtown that involved a change to the street scape. I know the building across from Agave is for sale 2.2 Mill I think. (a bit steep) All those other lots down Allyn and Church are owned by the people that were going to build the 180 Allyn street skyscraper back in the early 90's, and the large lots just north of 84 are city owned.

Foxwoods To Hire 2,000 Employees http://www.courant.com/business/hcu-foxwoo...0,1264749.story Sure most of them are not the highest paying jobs, but this right here is the begining of a major upswing for SE Connecticut. Between these 2000 and 2000 at Mohican Sun, there will be a large number of upstanding citizens moving into the slightly sketchy towns of New London and Norwich.

I wish I had photoshop skills so I could work something up. Its crazy how much of the land around the arena Larry G. owns. Seems to me that he has the most to gain here and I have no doubt he will be very involved.

Well, it looks as though the Church Street garage is completely gone there and a plaza wraps around the building and goes under the Hilton. I am guessing those two towers to the right of H-21 is City place and Goodwin, but I am wondering what that verticle orange thing with the detail is. lookie what I found! http://www.ctcda.com/images/customer-files...AL%208-4-06.pdf it's the HOK report. It is from 2006 I guess but has all kinds of info about how much action the cc gets. an example below Summary of Event Estimates Event Type *Events *Attendance * Total Attendance Wolf Pack Hockey 43 X 3,800 = 163,000 UConn Basketball 21 X 14,000 = 294,000 Concerts 8 X 8,900 = 71,000 Family Shows 28 X 3,300 = 92,000 Non-Tenant Sports 11 X 8,700 = 96,000 Other Events 21 X 1,700 = 36,000 Subtotal 132 events 752,000 attendees Flat Floor Events 15 X 2,500 = 38,000 Total - All Events 147 790,000

Bill your objections are legitimate, but I am wondering if blocking off Church would put an end to the wind tunnel problem happening there now. I will also add that Northland would surely develop the flat parking lot at the Metrocenter that was once planned as MetrocenterII. If the arena was moved up that one block and the metro center lot as well as the flat lots by the church street lot were developed I think it is a signifigant improvement. This would surely include signifigant housing elements while giving people more reason to move or visit downtown. One more key aspect would be putting a SIGNIFICANT increse in parking space for City place I, II, Goodwin, etc. allowing them to lure companys downtown. I might be a little ahead of myself with all of this, but I think "fixing" the existing downtown would be better right now than extending downtown as its spread pretty thin now. If we achieve a higher level of livability and a higher density the retail we are so worried about would finally come. and the turn around would be well on its way.

Just a guess, but follow me on this. Northland has been vocal about interest in creating some kind of plaza like Roc Center in NYC with another residential tower on the opposite corner of H21. Granted this was in a situation where the arena location was moved. I would not be too suprised if NL wanted to close church in order to open up some space closer to H21. Possibly connecting Pratt and Allyn. lets not forget that NL owns half of Pratt, and the building that Agave is in on Allyn. NL also owns the huge flat parking lot cady corner to the arena at Ann and Church. If they closed Church and knocked down the old church street garage it would alow the city to re build the entire site with much more parking. Obviously there would be a much nicer arena, and all of this could be oriented in a way to breath extra life onto Pratt, Allyn, and possibly even connect them with a new pedestrian street like area. I mention the garage coming down because I park there and its falling apart. concrete chunks literally falling from the roof. Also I think it was mentioned as part of the problem with parking downtown, and in one of the arena threads by the city. who knows this could be interesting, and with rates droping like they did today, its possible there will be more money for financing private investment downtown. you should mail Larry G a $100 check for a season ticket deposit in the new arena for a team/sport to be named later.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-cente...0,6866396.story The right conditions are within reach for a new sports and entertainment arena to replace the aging Civic Center, recently renamed the XL Center, and the best place to put that arena would be on the center's current site, an arena consultant has told the city. In a report Mayor Eddie A. Perez presented to corporate leaders last week, the arena consultants told the city that a new $300 million to $400 million, largely state-funded arena is worth talking about. Next up is a task force to gauge corporate financial support. *SNIP* "What we learned is that it's worth pursuing," McGovern said. "Because we know in 2013 we're going to have to grapple with the decision." *SNIP* The state last year picked a partnership headed by Lawrence R. Gottesdiener, downtown's largest developer, to run the center. Gottesdiener is the owner of the Hartford 21 apartment tower that abuts the center, and has said he wants to knock down the arena, build a new one, and bring a major league professional sports franchise to the city. "Eddie showed a lot of leadership in continuing to drive this forward when it's not easy," Gottesdiener said Friday. "It's definitely rolling the boulder up the hill." But it has to be rolled, he said. The center as-is, while functional, brings the city down. "It's particularly important now, as that arena decays," he said. "We're totally behind it, and we think it's absolutely necessary." The plans include closing Church Street and moving the arena itself further North. The area shown in this rendering is where the church street garage currently stands. The detailed building to the left is the back side of the Hilton. The Hartford-21 residential tower is in the center background. Well, it looks like this is something the mayor is really serious about. Now lets eee if we can secure a team for the areana

Not ignored, forgot. I edited them in. did I forget anything else? Anyone want to help by adding in non residential projects?

I compiled all of the residential development going on in the city right now (that I know about). I include Hotels as residential because this is all about bringing people downtown. Please correct me if you know differently than I have posted. Also I am sure we could add the non residential projects to these lists as well. PROPOSED: YMCA Tower 40+ stories 200 Condos +100 Apartments 101 Pearl 36 Apartments Front Street 115 Apartments 158 Woodland 28 Condos Best Western on Market St. 8 stories 75 rooms Capewell Hotel 130 Rooms 410 Asylum 70 Apartments Lofts on Capitol 113 housing units http://www.bhplus.com/Portfolio/Default.asp?PortfolioID=38 STALLED: Capewell Factory 100 Condos Plaza Mayor 35-45 residential units 777 Main (BoA) 50+ Condos CONSTRUCTION: Colt Gateway 238 open/under construction N. Main Apts. 57 low income apartments BUILT Hotel Bond (Homewood Suits) 117 hotel suits SNET Building: 132 apartments Trumbull on the park: 100 apartments Hartford 21 262 apartments Sage-Allen 78 apartments +170 student housing The Metropolitan 50 condos 13 as yet unsold American Airlines 101 Apartments (just opened) 1429 Park Street/Design Center Hartford 56 Loft style Apartment lofts (just opened) Total residential units Built 949 Estimated occupied ~580 Total residential units under construction 295 although 238 are potentially stalling? at Colt Total residential units proposed and likely 662 + 75 Hotel rooms Total residential units proposed and not likely 185 + 130 hotel rooms I colored the projects in the center of downtown Red These are the most important ones. They will breath life into a once empty urban core. I colored the projects on the edge of downtown Orange They are just a little further from the very center of it all. and I colored the projects around the downtown area green(because yellow is hard to read). These important projects connect the CBD with the rest of the city while increasing density. comments?

I am familiar with the layout of the units in the building (I got the free tour ) I should be able to see about 98 units on any given side because of the way the corner units are set up. There are 9 units with lights on right now in the East side of the building including the penthouse. Using math, or at least a firm understanding of Excel I figure this represents about 9.18% occupancy or a total of 24 occupied units. A totally useless figure at 4:30 on a tuesday. haha

some of the executives at my company need to keep an apartment is some combination of here, NY, Atlanta and The Hague. I am sure that some of the renters over there travel a great deal due to their works demands. Hell, my wifes boss is in Brasil for 3 days right now. I am not disagreeing with you Jcrc, just saying that some of the darkness may be due to the caliber of renter. I will try and count the number of lit up units tonight before I go home if I remember. multiply that by 4 and we can have an estimate of people in that building at 6-6:30PM on a Tuesaday in the winter

I agree, but I would think just barely viable. That is why I think this summer might be the turning point. Especially if the AA building does well. If in 6 months another 50 Apartments rent in H-21 and 10 more condos sell at the Met plus AA Building, that additional push should go a long way in encouraging retail. I am not completely concerned about new retail as much as I would like to see some of the existing businesses extend their hours as a responce to these residents.

62% is 162.44 units rented. The building definately has more lights on at night each month, but its still fairly dark unfortunately. Although 162 rented units downtown is great, there are still 100 Vacant units. I am thinking that this summer might really be the tipping point for downtown. Assuming no additional losses, I think we as a city are well placed to see that final push to make a real difference this summer. As far as retail in H-21 who knows. You would think that with 162 captive customers living above it, 120 or so up the street at sage allen, 100+ in trumbull on the park and another 800 long term residents of downtown that market is getting close to large enough for that grocery store and liquor store to make sense. As the AA building comes online this spring and the units at 266 Pearl fill up I think downtown will start to feel much more alive. Part of my reasoning is that AA and 266 Pearl spread the residents around some rather than having most everyone on Trumbull. I think Pratt street will get a huge boost by Kyoto opening and the AA building having more residents on main street. There will be a very nice energy around the intersections of Temple, Main and Pratt. Also I am hoping that Front street will be well under construction leading to local retailers returning to downtown as national chains will be in Front street.

http://www.mohegansun.com/projecthorizon/ This fancy link gives you a nice look at everything they are adding. I think House of Blues is a great choice, but adding House of Blues, Margaritaville, 4 additional bars, 2 resturants to the Dubliner etc maked this a signifigant entertainment hub for the non gambler. My wifes family is from Montville and occasionally have met her sister or an old friend for a drink there and I actually may enjoy doing that after this is built. Kudos!

I did not realize this tower was allready built. Its not open yet, but I just drove by the casino today, and I have to say I like the new tower. its a shame its not in a city because the whole casino just looks silly out there. The intro to their site has some images of the new hotel tower http://www.mgmatfoxwoods.com/

Yes, the right market is part of the equaion, but almost as important the ownership is key. Seattle and Toronto both have commited real financial resources to the team and people in the cities can see that. They know from the start that their new team will do what it takes to be great, and they want to get in on the ground floor. For the first time in league history there are signifigant marketing dollars being spent. No one wants to be part of something that is not popular. and everyone wants to be part of of the cool kids club. In toronto it is cool to be seen at the games. If that culture flows into Seattle and then San Jose, this league will become one of the worlds best, not just an also ran.

AGREED! I just read an article yesterday about the official completion of the dig. The article mainly focused on all of the problems and marvels associated with the project, but be sure it was a huge success. Traffic actually moves in Boston now. There have also been all kinds of projects adding to the value of Boston that embrace the new waterfront and greenbelt. New buildings and a larger tax base. I would be thrilled if Hartford could get a mini big dig project much like Providence has. These are the kinds of projects that completely change how a city is perceived. Not to mention how it looks and interacts with its transit options. If everything were done right the city would get its waterfront back, 84 would go away, and in all likelihood the city would gain another bridge across the river. While reconnecting East Hartford and Hartford via street level traffic.

I would not call it a fascination, but I am definately enthusiastic about the potential of such a project. Riverfront may be a huge success, but it was also just a band aid for the larger problem. Hartford is STILL not connected to its single greatest natural resource. Additionally, most of the monies spent on riverfront re-capture would not be wasted by an I-91 Project. In fact the park space would be expanded, and the result would be a much more attractive city to LIVE IN. The park space would also be immediately SAFER, weather in reality or just perception. The current park along the river is highly disfunctional and mostly useless, and I can speak from experience as I do attend events at the riverfront. (still a massive improvement so I assure you I am not down on riverfront recapture at all). So the long and short of it is that you may think this city is connected to the riverfront, but I think it's barely just been re-introduced. I see the potential economic impact of some kind of I-84 reconfiguration as being more than an I-91 project, but I see I-91 as much easier to do, much cheaper to do, and I also like the idea of free money from the Feds, not to mention what would likely be a large State assistance to make the Capitol a better city. If this project helps re kindle the Colt gateway, as well as the capewell condos, and the capewell hotel/hotels I would be thrilled. I have no doubt the industrial and low density buildings South of the civic center would be re developed as well. So regardless of your traffic concerns and lost economic viability due to I-84s problems, I think I-91 is a much more realistic opportinity and I want to put my full support behind it. That being said I would likely support an I-84 project if I had one to support. Its just a much larger can of worms. This is the same thing as voting for someone who has a chance of winning an election even though they are not your ideal. Sure I could vote Liebertarian or Green or some other thing, but voting Republican or Democrat is the only sure way that your vote will count in our political system as it stands today. Cheers

I think the tendancy is to hope for the best regarding a project like this. They may be sketchy, but they seem to be doing something right. They pushed this thru Washington. That's gotta count for something. I really hope this project works out in the end, and I hope we get a National park out of the deal, and I honestly don't care how much money a company makes as long as they deliver on the project. Now I will say that before this national recognition, I was getting concerned about the viability of the project, but it seems as though they were making some progress if not with hammer and nail but with red tape. Now I thought their funding a bit sketchy, but hopefully with the rates dropping right now there will be funding opening up all overr the place, and they can get the next phase underway. If the staste moves offfices in order to help a project I dont have a problem with that. I think this is how the governments should help projects out. The difference in rates cant be that much, and in the long run the completed project would bring much more money into the city than the short term loss. additionally, whatever location those workers would be leaving can surely attract new tennants easier than a project that in on the downtown firnge and is anchoring the areas revitalization. Remember if Colt works out, there will be other near by projects that will gain momentum. If the Nail factory had a near by national park condo development success story I would say that they would get all kinds of financing and interest in general. also those hotels etc... and the potential burying of 91 by the state. yes, I am an optomist and yes I do have some concerns, but there has been some progress here, so I will hold off judgement untill I stop seeing progress.