clt29301

Downtown development is one of the hardest things to accomplish, especially in a city like Cola. While most cities have only one entity in the city government to work with, Cola has the city government, state government and a major national university. While they are assets and would be welcome in any community, they also present challenges in getting different groups with different agendas to work together. That being said, I see a lot of progress in downtown Columbia. Having different districts within the city is a huge asset as each serves a different demographic. But, there is a definite need to connect the areas so they are not only separate districts but can leverage each other to make the city better. Reducing the lanes on Assembly and providing more places for people to cross would go a long way to connecting the Vista and Main, I think this is in the planning stages.. I am not sure Five Points will every be connected. The Bull St project is one that has the potential to change that far corner of downtown and the blocks back towards Main. It provides an opportunity for companies that want to be closer in to town the ability to be in Columbia but with great access to the interstates and an international airport. Costs should be a little lower as wells since there is not a huge reason to build expensive highrises. It could be an urban version of Ballantyne Corporate Park here is Charlotte with a lot of 5-7 story buildings mixed with the occasional 10 story building. The one thing that you said which also needs work and has not been mentioned is the identity issue. I am not sure why Lexington does not want an association with Columbia, could be politics, but, as downtown shows some success stories, that should wane. The problem is that it will take a lot of time for that to change, there are still counties in the Charlotte metro which do not associate with downtown Charlotte. And, to be fair, the upstate counties are not close. People in Anderson & Spartanburg do not claim to live in Greenville and residents of Greenville do not tell others that they are from the upstate, they live in Greenville. Because the upstate is a very large low density land area, it is not well connected. The two largest counties, Greenville & Spartanburg share an airport but, that is about it. There is even a discrepancy about BMW, Greenville calls it the Greer or Greenville plant, Spartanburg calls it the Spartanburg Plant, BMW calls it the Spartanburg Plant. As for the Greenville-Columbia comparisons, after reading posts here and on other forums, the types of comparison which would be helpful are not present. Constructive comparison would be helpful to understanding how each city has accomplished different goals. Both cities could learn how to institute more transit in the car dependent cities. However, from what I read, some are more interested in negative comments, down to talking about cracked sidewalks. But, I agree, Greenville has a nice downtown and is vocal about it, hence the topic count on UP that even exceeds Atlanta. But, the growth and prosperity differences between the cities is largely about perception. The growth, income and education levels of each city are even at best, in some cases better in Columbia.

Let's address this "hyper-sensitivity" thing for a minute since I have been accused of the same. Each person who posts on this board has a higher degree of pride in their city because we are interested in development. So, when you and others from Greenville posts comments that point out deficiencies (every city has them) with other cities and then respond how Greenville is doing it better (I guess noone in the Carolinas does anthing right except Greenville), it is only natural to get a response. Your comment about Greenville beating Charlotte and that I would not understand is a perfect example. The funny thing is that when others say bad things of Greenville, they are branded and asked not to post anylonger, that happens on this site as well as others. Not being the best typer, I had a typo when responding to a Greenville comment and my spelling was attacked not from a Cola person but from someone in Greenville, perhaps the Greenville responder was a little sensitive to what I wrote. There are even individuals from Greenville that have made it a mission to bash everything in Columbia even bringing up a person dying to try and make Caroina and Columbia look bad, how low is that? So, I don't think anyone is being "sensitive" but, have just seen this happen with a high degree of frequency. If you can't handle a response, don't post.

Obviously we see things differently so, we need to get back on the topic, enjoy your tea shop.

Every city is a work in progress...........As for being a "booster", I guess that is where we disagree. I have spent the majority of my life in the upstate and all of my family (except mine) still lives there. So, I do not necessarily see myself as only a Cola/Charlotte booster. I just find it VERY interesting that there are always comparisons between Greenville-Charlotte and Greenville-Columbia (since you are a Clemson fan, that would explain the bias against Cola). Now, I admit, I would find it very hard to move back to the upstate from Charlotte so, maybe in that respect, I am a Charlotte booster. Regarding Charlotte v. Greenville, of course this is subjective, as is your opinion, but, I do not see that Greenville would have beat Charlotte back in the 80's, 90's, today or whenever (many others agree as our growth patterns across the board are dramatically different). It is true that downtown is very business focused, as it should be with Fortune 500 company headquarters, but, that is not all that exists. It would be easy to list out the different venues, restaurants, performing art centers, museums etc..... which generate the "synergies" downtown but, I doubt you would be interested. And to be honest, the reason that I asked the original question about the tea shop is that it is a waste of time to compare the two cities, ( you seriously posted something today that a tea shop owner said over 10 years ago??). Simply put, the cities are VERY different in the degree and type of development, there is not much of a need to compare the two.

You may be partly right. But, the one large challenge facing Columbia is that the city has entities which are huge assets but also present other challenges. The state government owned this land and played a large part in how and when it was sold. If I am in city government, I would not spend a lot city assets working to connect this development when the state may decide to sell or not to sell. It is a hard position to play that is unique to Columbia. Now that a developer has come forward, the city should begin working to incorporate this into the fabric of Columbia. In time, this project should accelerate a connection to other parts of the city. The landowners around this development, especially the ones between Main St. and Bull are lottery winners. This project has an opportunity to be a great development for companies that want to be in an urban setting but also want quick access to interstates and air travel. Within a couple of redlights, anyone in this project is on 277 and within an hour drive of the only airport in the Carolinas that has a meaningful number of nonstop flights. As far as living downtown, I think people live close in due to many reasons. Some are related to the proximity to attractions, to reduce drive times, others just do not want the suburban lifestyle. This project could serve both demographics easily. The good thing about a diverse city is that there is no one development style or pattern and options are available. This project will provide options for those who want to be close in but, without the noise of living on Main St, The Vista or Five Points.

Hey Gvillesc, I know this is off topic but, since you brought it up, I thought I would ask. First, how is getting a tea shop a huge victory? I guarantee you that Charlotte will not miss a tea shop. And, I doubt that it was in the discussion when we were named a finalist for a national political convention. Secondly, by your statement, you seem to think that Charlotte closes at 5:00, what at all gives you this idea? Have you been to Charlotte? EpiCentre? TW Cable Arena? Any of the new acclaimed museums or performing arts venues? 4th Ward? Professional sports venues?

I agree, while a large plot of land like this has a ton of potential, it also comes with a lot of challenges, both developmental and geographical. One of the largest challenges is what you described, there are other established areas with synergy that in my mind, are more desirable. And, geographically, this land is not connected to any of the other districts or close to the university. The Bull Street property is located on the outer limits of downtown and with a $15m price, is expensive, especially after combining the opportunity costs of capital and carrying costs. Holding this property as speculation would not be a smart move. But, on the positive side, this land is about an hour from Charlotte and the airport. With a huge number of direct flights, it could be marketed easily to companies who need direct flights such as headquarter companies. And, based on the developer's prior projects, this project should turn out nicely.

By "Central Transit Station" are you talking about the one across from Time Warner Cable Arena? Gateway Station will be built on West Trade, a couple of blocks from BAC Stadium. All passenger rail (Amtrak, NCRR, SEHSR etc....) will come into this station, the other station is for CATS Bus services and the Lynx Light Rail Service. There is a section on the station at ridetransit.org under transit planning, facilities. It would be nice to see train service to Cola and onto Charleston from Charlotte.

Just a question or two.....TacoMac looks like it is getting ready to open, anyone know the official date? Also, noticed the rezoning sign at the former SeaLand HQ building. The rezoning notice has a max height of 180', how many floors will that be? The initial drawing of the project looks to be an extension of Piedmont Town Center with a center street, offices, shops, apartments and maybe a hotel. Not sure when it will get built but, it will be a much better use of that property.

College magazine rankings are fairly worthless as schools often report statistics with little guidance, some with less integrity than Enron, and some schools do not participate at all. But, according to Forbes, Southern Conference Schools are represented well, here are the latest rankings for SC schools.........Wofford #58, Furman #90, The Citadel #265, Converse #270, USC # 284, Clemson # 338, North Greenville # 365 & CofC # 423.

No, I am not comparing Charlotte with Greenville. There is little value in comparing cities.

Gville....I have looked at the plans and I agree with what you said. Although I think the name is a little silly, it is a good thing to update outdated development patterns. If you don't, you will regret it at some point. I hope more cities look at those opportunities as well since it reduces the need for more and more sprawl. The added benefit is that the overall streetscape, walkability etc...are all enhanced in addition to the increased use of transit. Not sure what you mean by the "feel" comment. Earlier comments about comparisons with Lenox and Southpark were in response to upstate's original comparisons nothing more than that. To be clear, I do not have a problem with what you are trying to accomplish in Greenville but, where I think this whole conversation went off line was/is the constant infactuation with bashing Columbia. Although I like Columbia, I have never lived in Columbia and actually am originally from the upstate. If anyone wants to talk about development on its merits (why or why not things happen in development), have at it but, if anyone is on here simply to bash another city or bring up meaningless surveys pointing out that another city is fat (without even knowing that the selection criteria ie...size of city, could have excluded other cities), that's not the purpose of why people read this site and is a waste of time.

Your guess is as good as mine as to what he was talking about. And, I think we have more than enough in Charlotte to keep us happy. But, you are right, given the right location, I am sure they will be here. Whole Foods has chosen a site here in SouthPark but, it is part of a large mixed use project with a couple of 20 story buildings. Exclusive of the economy, it should prove to be an interesting rezoning decision as buildings with 20+ stories have traditionally been in the central business district. And, you are right again, Southpark, along with Lenox/Phipps & Crabtree, is a leading retail district in the southeast.

If "Uptown Greenville" will have its own identity, why were you originally saying it was only 7 years behind SouthPark and would be like Lenox? As for the invitation, I'll pass. But, feel free to visit Charlotte for IKEA, Neiman, Nordstrom etc...........of course, based on your theories, I am sure they will be on Haywood Road beside the Greenway in no time, afterall, the Apple store is a leading indicator.

It is obvious that you have strong feeling against Columbia and that is fine. Not everyone likes Columbia, not everyone likes Charlotte etc...... But, it seems that you are more interested in your self created "spin motion" theory than looking at actual economic data used by retailers and most others when talking about cities, being an "urban enthusiast" is the term you used. So, yes, absent anything other than your unsubstantiated theory and "a lot of empty storefront" observations, I agree, it is time to move on, that is very logical. As for Haywood, good luck on your plan to become a mini Buckhead, "Uptown Greenville".

Just a question, not trying to to start anything, but, how much is the Carolina First Center used?

Retailers do look for averaged out economic data as it relates to a trade area.....a trade area is a very specific area which, if you read back, are the numbers I quoted for you previously. Trade areas can be large or small depending on the store....IKEA (I am sure that a Greenville store at Haywood is imminent because Apple has a store there soon to be followed by Neiman, Billy Reid, True Religion and others) has a large trade area because there are not many stores like IKEA, a Harris Teeter has a small trade area because it serves more of a neighborhood. And you are right, they look at very specific criteria down to possibly who anchors a mall, what spaces are available, how much contiguous space is available, foot traffic etc.......that is exactly what I have said over and over, they will wait for exactly what they want. Crate & Barrel did this with Southpark as well as many other retailers. As for the Haywood area, other areas of town have had some success. But, this will be a larger challenge than Main Street or West End as you have to recruit more jobs (see Clemson report for Greenville's success), rework the entire road network, and encourage developers with millions invested in current buildings (with rent paying tenants) to competely redo the property to be more street friendly. All of this while building residential in an area that has very little. But, a plan is a good place to start and.....it has a greenway. It is obvious based on your posts here related to Columbiana & the silly weight cities list, that you are not a fan of Columbia. And, that's fine, not everyone likes the same thing. But, if you have information on vacancy rates at Sandhills or other centers, please share that instead of an observation (numerous empty store fronts????, what does that equate too, 20,000 sq feet out of a million?????). Since you are passing out advice on retail, I am sure you have that somewhere. Anyway, good luck with your plan.

I think you are seeing what you want to believe but, there is no flawed logic and no excuses, the demographics are there in Columbia to support a J Crew, Pottery Barn, PF Changs etc....afterall, they are not exactly high end stores on the same lines as a Burberry, Ralph Lauren etc..... Will they end up in Columbiana or Sandhills, I am not sure. Sandhills is relatively new and not fully built out. Maybe they will go into the old Richland Fashion Mall which is being redeveloped. But, for years the same question was asked about Southpark, why did we not get the stores that were going to Raleigh first. I think I mentioned this earlier but, Raleigh, like you, attributed it to being they were a superior retail market. What the real story was is that they were waiting (even though other centers offered incentives) to see how Southpark would redevelop. At the time, it was owned by Rodamco which had to sell after being in bankruptcy. Since then, SouthPark has attracted better retailers than anyone in either of the Carolinas. In this case, as in many others, retailers will wait until they get the desired location, it is not much harder than that. There are not too many ways to say it but, just because you get the stores first does not tell the entire story of what is going on. If you want to believe Greenville is a superior market, have at it (maybe you should read the Clemson report that was in the Greenville News a couple of weeks ago). But, the economic demographics say that Columbia could support these stores as easily as Greenville. And, I don't remember saying that Haywood could not or chould not redevelop. However, I do not agree that is has superior bones than most suburban malls. As I said many times now, the plan can succeed but, it will take time to go from where it is today to where you want it to be. Having said that, calling it a midtown or uptown is a stretch. Even Southpark, with more retail & office than downtown Greenville would be hard pressed to say we are a midtown/uptown.

I am not off topic, the point about Neiman & Tiffany was to disagree that the Haywood area is only 7 years behind Southpark. And, if you remember, I did agree that Haywood could reinvent itself. But, there are a lot of challenges (political & economic) to changing a suburban area into a more urban environment. And, in its current state, Haywood is very suburban, you can call Harbison Blvd junk but, as it is today, the Haywood area, including Patewood etc....has been developed in a surburban fashion. Looking at the landscape, parking lots are a dominant feature on Haywood from 385 to Laurens Road, almost every strip center is set back from the road with large parking lots and out parcels of banks & fast food restaurants. Patewood consist of 5 story buildings primarily surrounded by parking lots. Nothing about this development in its current state is anything close to urban or Uptown. It does not mean you can not get there, that is what the plan is for, it just means there will be a lot of work to achieve the type of area that is wanted. And, along the way, the recruitment of higher paying jobs that would support higher end development. As for the "waiting where to land" theory being "bunk", you could not be more wrong. Retailers will wait until the right development opens up to enter a market. As an example, Raleigh boasted that they got a Crate & Barrel at Crabtree before Charlotte, even published a big atricle in the newspaper talking about it. But, Crate (which had offers of cheap rent in other Charlotte centers) waited until the best spot opened at the Village of Southpark to open a stand alone store that is 5x larger than the Crabtree store. Do you really think that Greenville, with lower income levels & lower levels of college educated residents, can magically support PF Changs while Columbia can't. That makes no sense. And, although greenville is the center of the upstate, based on your comment that Greenville is different than the other upstate cities, you could not possibly be getting much retail support from other upstate cities. I know this is not a Columbia thread but, I wanted to answer your comment.

While it is true that Greenville is growing, making up average HH incomes will be a very hard thing to do. Clemson recently (past couple of months) published a study which showed Greenville's demographics lagging both the target cities (Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham)) and peer cities (Columbia amoung others) both in absolute values as well as rate of income growth. Greenville is moving in the right direction and has a lot of advantages but, it will take time. Besides, it not only takes high HH incomes, it takes a lot of density, SouthPark's trade area is approaching 900k, Haywood is less than 500k...the office space around SouthPark is in excess of 5m sq feet, more than twice downtown Greenville. So I think it will be more than 7 years before Haywood will see a Tiffany or Neiman. It is not a bad mall but, I think it is more than 7 years behind SouthPark in development. I agree, Columbiana is suburban but, in it's current state, Haywood is still very suburban. It is closer to downtown but, it is not an urban center. As for why retailers do not see it (Columbia), I think a couple of things are going on. First, Columbiana's owner (General Growth) is bankrupt, there is not a ton of money to pay for upfits/expansions while on the other hand, Haywood is run by Simon (who is bidding for General Growth). Simon is a terrific developer (the own SouthPark, Lenox and Phipps Plaza) with a lot of connections troughout the retail world. Second, I think Columbia has a couple of wealthy pockets between Irmo, Forest Acres and Spring Valley. Since retailers seem to cluster, it is a waiting game to see who goes where at this point.

I agree with the last part of this, I don't see a reason that Haywood could not be turned into a nicer area (although, I am not sure you will have a "uptown"feel), it will just take time and political will. A lot of the current development will need to be changed and Simon will have to create an better appearance for the mall (which I am sure they will over time). This is the obvious but, what the area needs is higher density housing to drive better demographics as well as more office space. As an example, I am not sure how far out the trade area is defined but, the average HH income for this area is 19% less than SouthPark and around 27% less than Lenox. Haywood and Columbiana actually have very similar average HH incomes in the respective trade areas. More office/residential would help Haywood become more than just a regional mall.

Having lived in the upstate and now Charlotte, there is no way Charlotte would be on this list and no other SC cities. And, Columbia, with a higher education level and income than Greenville, is very surprising.

Actually, I think the towers have a lot to do with the vibrancy of the city as they bring more people to the city, what city is vibrant without people? Sure, SC's only Fortune 500 Headquarters moved to the suburbs and that hurts but, the new towers are full and downtown moves on. Besides, if towers are not important, why are there so many post in the Greenville section about how important it is to build the tallest building in SC? In this economy, if there is only one mostly empty building in Columbia, I think the city is doing fine, not ruined. As for Five Points, losing its character is more of a personal observation, I am more impressed by this and the other downtown districts each time I am in Columbia. The one thing I would like to see is a more cohesive link between the districts of Five Points, Main Street, The River Front, The Vista and Carolina. Obviously Assembly Street will have to be reworked. I have said a couple of times that I understand not being a Carolina fan in Columbia could be hard and there should be a minor league team or two. To be honest, with Columbia's demographics, I am surprised that there is not at least a Single A team in Columbia. Not sure they would play in Carolina Stadium (It was built specifically for SC Baseball) but, they would not need to. If Fluor field was only around $15-20m to build, that would be a preferable option to playing at Carolina Stadium. Carolina gets a lot of media attention in Columbia because it is a big story just as the Greenville media constantly cover Clemson. But, that in no way can be fairly intrepreted as Carolina dominating Columbia or holding Columbia back as was originally stated. And, as I have stated before, I am not sure Columbia is Held back. By all economic measures, Columbia is holding on better than most. In fact, the annual list of top 50 destinations for U Haul was just released with Columbia being the only SC city on the list. While not scientific, combined with other indicators, it is another indication that Columbia is doing just fine.

Sorry to keep on the Columbia subject, I know it is not the proper thread but, I will be brief. I could not disagree more that Columbia has a hard time with seperating itself from Carolina. While Carolina is certainly a large part of Columbia, The State Government, Fort Jackson and private corporations all play a part in Columbia. To some degree, politicians from around the state play a part in the identity of Columbia....good or bad, the Confederate Flag fight which had nothing to do with Columbia was not a Chamber of Commerce highlight for the city. Someone stated correctly, it is the city's responsibility to manage these assets to grow and prosper. As I stated in my post, I fully understand how some would be turned off if you are not a Carolina fan. Fans of other schools have the same feeling here in Charlotte as you read/hear about Chapel Hill for the 1,000th time during the week. But, although there have been a few instances like the Panthers not being allowed to play at Williams Brice, Carolina is not stopping anyone from placing team in Columbia. That is up to the city and Richland county. And, as much as I would ike to see a AA team in Columbia, I am not one who believes that minor league baseball will entice college graduates into moving to any city. In this economy, a job would be the top draw for a college grad to move to a city. As an example, although Charlotte has a AAA team, it plays 15 miles from downtown in Fort Mill, and we are still attracting over 40k new residents per year in a bad economy. Besides, it's not like Columbia is have a hard time developing downtown and there are no other entertainment options. A couple of 18 story office towers were recently completed, a 28 story apartment tower was just announced, the Vista is doing great, Five Points will always be a cool spot to visit, and the metro is adding more people than any other in SC. As for the newspaper comments, I can not read too much into what is said in any newspaper comment section. Comments in Charlotte would lead you to believe that the light rail cars are empty when in fact they have easily been exceeding 10 year projections in year 1.

You have to love all newspaper comments, they are funny. The "mayberry of the South" comment seems to describe each southern city at some point. It was used countless times here in Charlotte when the transit tax was being debated. I have seen it in the AJC in reference to Atlanta as well. However, I do fail to see how Carolina holds Columbia back. In reference to the article in "The State", I can understand that some are disappointed that Carolina Stadium does not have a minor league team playing there in addition to Carolina. But, that does not qualify as holding the city back. As much as Charlotte has, I would love to have a major research university (and over 30k students/professors/staff) located within the 277 loop instead of being located in Chester County 30+ miles away. How do you see Carolina holding Columbia back? Would Columbia be better off without Carolina? Or, would you rather have Clemson located across the Church Street bridge instead of being a 40 minute drive? I know some are biased against anything Carolina but, it simply makes no sense to say that Carolina is not an unqualified asset to Columbia.