New shipyard renderings

[vicupstate]

Going by the rendering.  The Pier is 680 so the width looks to be about 70-80 feet wide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought I read 60' somewhere.

[Fruit Cove]

is that wide enough for any towers instead of this park plan?

[Captain Obvious]

is that wide enough for any towers instead of this park plan?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

60 feet isn't really even wide enough for a single row of townhomes. Landmar obviously decided that they didn't want to reconstruct or demolish the existing pier, so they just went with a public space.

[Captain Obvious]

here, check out the map ...

i used the measure tool on the pier (you can see it outlined in red). it was shockingly accurate. the length was about 689 feet and the width came in at almost exactly 60 feet.

[merlin]

like it on not RiversideGator - you have to give them Kudos for turning over some riverfron to a public space. I agree that is almost an exact copy of Calatrava, however a ferris wheel at the end of a peir has been done before too. My fear with all of the development along the riverfront is that other than the river walk, there will be no public spaces or destinations. This is one project that allows for the public to happen. I am just glad to see something other than the same ol' bland stuff that is fast becoming our redeveloped downtown.

[vicupstate]

City must keep its promise of a public riverfront park

Don't look now but that object headed our way could very well be a shaft.

That's likely what we are going to get in new plans being formulated for the old Shipyards property downtown.

You may remember that in 2001 the original developers of the property, the TriLegacy Group, asked for and received $75 million in publicly funded incentives for what was to be a $860 million project.

The only thing that made such an outrageous giveaway palatable was that $40 million of that money was to be used for 16.8 acres of public parks on the 45-acre site, plus an 8,000-foot extension of the Northbank Riverwalk.

Artist renderings of the public parks showed wide-open spaces perfectly landscaped and dotted with huge trees, the kind of places you would want to have a picnic or toss a Frisbee.

As you know, the city and TriLegacy got into a giant snit over how the project was being done and how the public money was being spent.

Now another developer, the LandMar Group, is considering taking over the project.

A draft development agreement between LandMar and the city released this week shows that -- poof -- the wide-open public spaces, the only reason for a large public investment in the project, are pretty much gone.

Instead of 16.8 acres of public parks and 8,000 feet of riverwalk, LandMar's proposal, according to a report in the Times-Union, includes 7.5 acres of public space.

But that, according to the Mayor's Office, includes the riverwalk extension and an existing pier of about 1 acre that will be landscaped and adorned with public art.

LandMar isn't to blame. It's just trying to make a deal work. But it's a shame that an opportunity for large public spaces on the riverfront downtown is likely to be lost.

The reaction of people to the new Northbank Riverwalk illustrates how much public park space along the river is appreciated.

Another large open area in conjunction with the riverwalk that would complement Metropolitan Park would only enhance that popularity.

City leaders should continue to pursue that goal.

If the Shipyards property isn't going to work, then take a look at the property where the Courthouse and the old City Hall, and their parking lots, are.

If the Courthouse isn't needed when the new one promised in the Better Jacksonville Plan is eventually built, perhaps all of that property could be turned into a downtown park.

The city already owns the property so the expense wouldn't be as great as trying to carve out another park somewhere downtown.

And city leaders should make darn sure that on the Southbank, the site of the old JEA generating station includes public park space when it's eventually developed.

In a column I wrote in 2001 begrudgingly giving support to providing $75 million in public incentives for the TriLegacy project, believing we would get 16.8 acres and $40 million worth of public parks, I said:

"As has been noted many times in this column, creating more public access to the St. Johns River is critical to our quality of life, and this site is ideal for tying in what could be a spectacular public amenity with downtown and our improving sports complex."

That spectacular public amenity downtown is still very much needed.

ron.littlepagejacksonville.com, (904) 359-4284

I agree with Littlepage. At a minimum the city council should try to pry at least another acre or two out of the parcel for public use. Doing so would add to the types/sizes of activities that could take place in the park areas. That in turn would draw more people. You need open spaces to have large gatherings like festivals, small concerts, Bowl game events, etc.

I think it is ridiculous to surrender an entire block of the courthouse property, when the city has every right to expect a reasonable amount of public space at the Shipyards site. $75mm is a huge truckload of money. I thought it was like $35mm!!?? The pier looks great, but it's only costing $3.2mm for the structural art. The city and it's taxpayer's deserve more.

Remember, Landmar can build it's residential structures as tall as it wants. There would be no net loss of units. Charlotte has two residential buildings proposed that would be 50 and 53 stories. There's no reason Landmar can't match or exceed those levels to get the units it needs.

Think of the vast waterfront areas that cities like Chicago and Milwaukee have. Once this chance is gone, it's gone forever.

[Captain Obvious]

i agree and strongly disagree with littlepage at the same time.

agree: sure, more park space is always nice. the city should work to get as much as is reasonable out of the shipyards and jea developers. (which they are).

strongly disagree: we should NOT be increasing our park space at the direct expense of residential units. extra downtown park space means exactly NOTHING unless we massively increase the number of housing units. if we so desperately care about park acres, we need to get off our butts and clean up hogan's creek/confederate/klutho park.

the city should NOT develop a reputation for strongarming developers who intend to build decently designed projects downtown (i'm just assuming landmar's overall plan will be nice and urban, for the sake of argument). it's not worth it to scare developers away with a hostile and incoherent bureaucracy ... especially when metro park and hogans creek are RIGHT THERE.

[Urban_Legend]

^Exactly my sentiments, Captain Obvious. I liked that large green area in the old plan, but I also like more mix-use buildings and such. It's give and take, and like you said, we have plenty of other great parks to redevelop.

[Captain Obvious]

right, my views might be different, but we already have lots of great public space on the riverfront. also, i don't want city leaders to use a large riverfront park as an excuse not to redevelop hogan's creek as a park.

of course, if landmar produces a bad overall design, i'll quickly change my tune and clammor for as much park space as possible, to mitigate the bad building design.

i guess i really just don't want jacksonville's development climate to turn out like my former residence in providence, ri. they had tremendous sucess about 10 years ago with downtown revitilization. then the people got all high and mighty on their sucess and became increasingly picky, hostile, and nimby-istic towards all new projects. they micro-managed every new proposal into failure for about 5+ years, and nothing new happened. finally, this year, things started to turn around with a slew of new proposals ... however, i hope jax doesn't have to learn the same lesson firsthand.

[merlin]

I somewhat agree Captain Obvious, however, the park space should not hinder, in my opinion more mixed use/ retail space. More residential units will come and can be added to the height of the project. In my view, the downtown area is beginning to reach the threshold where the infrastructure is needing to be ramped up in order to sustain downtown life and living outside of working hours. It is sort of a catch 22. One of these developments downtown should incoroporate a full scale grocery store in the base of it. I thought all along that the Haydon Burns location would be a fantastic location for a grocery store at the base with whatever above it. Take Roslyn in Alexandria Virginia (right across the river from DC) has a huge influx of daytime inhabitants, hoever has a very rich range of retail and chain stores at the pedestrian level of most of the towers around there. A grocery store would enhance the life of those already living and visiting downtown as well as that of new residents.

Just some thoughts...