Triangle Regional Transit

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

What ever they do, I hope they restore downtown Raleigh's larger/station!

[ncwebguy]

I think the red line needs to go north to west of Six Forks/Atlantic, and beyond to the area just west of Triangle Town Center.

At Six Forks/Atlantic, they could have room for a transit hub for buses that circulate through North Raleigh and beyond without having to come all the way into Moore Square. Riders who want to go downtown, Durham, etc. would catch the train for the rest of the journey.

A trolley "spur" could go from this hub along Six Forks to North Hills and onward to Strickland. Then make some small area plan or something for this corridor to increase density and transit oriented design.

Other "spurs" would follow the Wake Forest/Falls of Neuse corridor, and Atlantic to Triangle Town Center, if the rail does not make it that far north. This would let North Raleigh realize the benefits of the rail "backbone". The current sprawl pattern prevents bus service from being effective for the area.

The same could happen from downtown Durham and/or the 9th Street station. From downtown, a 15-501 trolley could go toward the Chapel Hill border, along Roxboro Road, and along Fayetville to Southpoint. From 9th street, a spur could go towards Northgate and beyond, and out Hillsborough Road to NW Durham.

RE: the airport, I don't know why TTA's 747 shuttle has *never* been mentioned. A bus leaving directly for RDU from the Triangle Metro Center (or IBM) rail stop every 10 minutes would be a lot more cost-benefit friendly than trying to get rail under RDU's runways, through Umstead, etc.

At London Gatwick, the rail station is miles away from the airport terminal, but does have a "shuttle train". Maybe a monorail that wouldn't have to worry about traffic would be more to RDU's liking? Especially if it could tie into the existing park and ride lots near 40?

[sax184]

At London Gatwick, the rail station is miles away from the airport terminal, but does have a "shuttle train". Maybe a monorail that wouldn't have to worry about traffic would be more to RDU's liking? Especially if it could tie into the existing park and ride lots near 40?

[monsoon]

Has anyone done an accounting on exactly why it still is going to take another $800 million to build the existing project? I think that before alternatives to the current proposal are studied it really behooves the area to look at why it's going to take $800M to build out this line. There are two reasons for this. First it may be possible to salvage part or most of the existing proposal if the high cost items could be removed. Second a knowledgeable understanding of what blew the costs out on the red line might keep the same mistakes from being made again.

If anyone here has these figures and can post them here I would greatly appreciate it.

Also, concerning streetcars. I don't think they are a good alternative to go after. I typed up something in the GR forum this morning on it and I will paste it here.

This is why you don't want to spend valuable transit money on a street car system. They don't provide much benefit over city buses and they are very expensive to build. There is a proposal in Charlotte to build a 10 mile street car line down a busy city street corridor. The estimated price tag is something like $265M and it will only add 3000 riders over the current bus lines down this road. As a result, this proposal is most likely dead and the city is turning its focus to light rail and enhancing its bus service.

[ChiefJoJo]

For the project costs, check out the FY 06 New Starts Report (large pdf)--see pg 32. Here's some highlights:

const. (hard) costs:

$237M guideway & track elements

$7M stations

$25M maintenance yards, shops, etc

$114M sitework (utilities, haz mat, retaining walls, parking lots)

$67M systems (signals, comm & cntrl, etc)

soft costs

$54M land acquisition

$53M comm rail vehicles

$175M professional services*** (surveys, engineering, legal, project admin, insurance)

$10M contingency

$65M finance charges

TOTAL = ~ $810M or $28.7M/mile

*** this is the one that sets off alarm bells for me... it's tough to believe this needs to be so high, although about $70M has already been spent, which I suppose must go into the overall report for the project.

[orulz]

I would guess that a lot of that $175 million has to do with the agreement with the railroads (CSX and Norfolk Southern) - things such as flaggers and indemnification, not to mention the cost of the negotiations themselves. In addition, the whole New Starts process is quite tedious and must have inflated the costs significantly as well. The number does seem high, though, and I wonder what the precise breakdown is, and what other New Starts projects look like.

For more cost savings, I wonder if they could save money by making the parking lots gravel rather than paved. Doesn't save on paving but it does decrease impervious surfaces which means less stormwater mitigation which means less station costs. Gravel lots on commuter railroads are actually fairly common. Hopefully they're going to be redeveloped before too long, anyway

[ncwebguy]

Looking at the maps in the TTA's airport rail study transitman linked to, it appears a Morrisville station at Airport Blvd would be closer than every other route proposed.

With TTA in its "reevaluation mode", could a Morrisville/RDU station be added at the Aviation/54 intersection?

This could lead to TOD in Morrisville and provide a cheap alternative for airport access. This would require some improvements along Airport Blvd., since a bus or fixed guideway anywhere near that corridor is now next to impossible due to sporatic development in the area. The new riders to cost ratios make non-bus options quite unattractive.

Brier Creek has devleoped closer to US 70 than Page Road, and that doesn't look to change any time soon. If it was designed to accomodate a rail line from RTP through Brier Creek and then on to either Crabtree or North Raleigh, it could justify a rail line down the road. Now only bus service makes sense.

With track elements, site work, and admin costs making up $526 million (65% of costs), any significant savings will have to come from those items.

[thewhister]

Got this email message from TTA, it is also on their website and at GoTriangle.org

CELEBRATE FESTI-BUS ON NOVEMBER 1st!

Brand New Demonstration Vehicles from Gillig and OPTIMA bus companies will be coming to Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Durham, and RTP!

TTA has several events coming up in November where we will be soliciting public input on the design of TTA's next vehicle, as well as other topics pertaining to how we can improve our existing services. TTA will order these vehicles in 2007, and they will arrive in 2008. We want YOU to tell us what types of features and amenities these vehicles should have!

Our first event, on November 1, is FESTI-BUS! TTA staff will be barnstorming around the region all day on November 1, bringing with them a few of the newest, most technologically advanced buses available on the market today.

PENNY FOR YOUR THOUGHTS? HOW ABOUT $50?

YOU will be able to walk onboard, kick the tires (gently), and take a survey about what you would like to see in the next generation of TTA buses. Everyone who attends FESTI-BUS and fills out our bus survey is eligible to WIN a $50 cash card just for giving your opinion!

We encourage you to tell us specific things that you like or dislike about the vehicles, such as "the seats on the first bus are great, but I really don't like the windows. The windows on the second bus would be much better."

Please join us on Wednesday! Schedule below.

Locations and Times:

CHAPEL HILL

8:00 A.M. to 10:00 A.M.

On Franklin St. By the Morehead Planetariuam

RALEIGH

11:00 A.M. to 1:00 P.M.

On Fayetteville St., south of Davie St.

DURHAM

1:30 P.M. to 3:30 P.M.

Fernway St. at Washington St., 1 Block from DATA Terminal

RTP

4:00 P.M. to 6:00 P.M.

TTA Transfer Center

6 Park Drive at Exit 280

[JDC]

Wow, I walk past Fernway and "Washington" Streets (it changes to Morris St. south of Corporation St.) on my way to and from work. I guess I'll stop by during my lunch hour.

[ChiefJoJo]

With TTA in its "reevaluation mode", could a Morrisville/RDU station be added at the Aviation/54 intersection? This could lead to TOD in Morrisville and provide a cheap alternative for airport access.

[orulz]

In my discussions with some folks at TTA, Morrisville has flipped their position and does want a station now, near the Aviation / 54 / Morrisville-Carpenter intersection. However, they specifically stated that they don't want the airport shuttle service to be based out of Morrisville, because the Town of Morrisville would essentially become a cheaper satellite park-and-ride lot for the airport. There are ways around this, but I believe the Town's official stance on this is that they are opposed.

Besides, having the shuttle based out of Triangle Metro Center solidifies its position as a "hub" in the middle of sprawling RTP.

[monsoon]

They ought to go and talk to the city of Pineville that opted to not have a LRT station built there despite the fact they were paying taxes to build the line. Their reason was they didn't want it to bring more traffic to the town. I have heard they now greatly regret that decision as it was a huge lost opportunity to help re-develop their town center. There is a lesson to be learned from that mistake and hopefully Morrisville does change their mind while they still can. It's too late for Pineville as they will never get the funding now to build an extension across I-485.

[ChiefJoJo]

Planners are looking at the potential for Ninth St redevelopment near the planned TTA stop.

[nowensone]

Hate to spill my beans a little here, but my planner friend (Triad area) told me last night that the LRT plans for the Triangle officially died yesterday. I didn't believe him, but he said he heard it at one of his meetings, and didn't know what was to take it's place other than more bussing. I haven't seen this confirmed, is this unfounded, a misunderstanding or something that isn't quite public knowledge yet?

[DanRNC]

Hate to spill my beans a little here, but my planner friend (Triad area) told me last night that the LRT plans for the Triangle officially died yesterday. I didn't believe him, but he said he heard it at one of his meetings, and didn't know what was to take it's place other than more bussing. I haven't seen this confirmed, is this unfounded, a misunderstanding or something that isn't quite public knowledge yet?

[sax184]

Hate to spill my beans a little here, but my planner friend (Triad area) told me last night that the LRT plans for the Triangle officially died yesterday. I didn't believe him, but he said he heard it at one of his meetings, and didn't know what was to take it's place other than more bussing. I haven't seen this confirmed, is this unfounded, a misunderstanding or something that isn't quite public knowledge yet?

[ChiefJoJo]

As far as I know, nothing has been decided other than the FTA New Starts funding will not be pursued by TTA this year. That does not mean that the project, or some other version of it, coul not be funded in the near future. And BTW, it's not LRT either, it's so called "regional rail," a commuter rail/LRT hybrid using diesel vehicles. I think your friend is reporting info a few months late as the above decision was made in August.

[nowensone]

I think this is completely unfounded and interesting it came from someone in the Triad.

[nowensone]

As far as I know, nothing has been decided other than the FTA New Starts funding will not be pursued by TTA this year. That does not mean that the project, or some other version of it, coul not be funded in the near future. And BTW, it's not LRT either, it's so called "regional rail," a commuter rail/LRT hybrid using diesel vehicles. I think your friend is reporting info a few months late as the above decision was made in August.

[nowensone]

The "source" at his meeting turns out to be the latest issue of the APA, and their own source was Bruce Siceloff of the Raleigh News & Observer. If I have his story pegged right, it is out of date, contradicts itself and is just opinion (though not 100% sure if I have found the correct article since I don't have the APA that references it). You have my apologies for posting crap like this, I will not be doing it again.

[danclever]

An article today in Herald Sun about studying potential transit corridors. I'm glad they are doing this, but I hope the outcome retains the Phase I route in the plans. I also hope it results in revised land use policy, i.e. encouragement of TOD in the identified corridors.

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-786455.html

[ChiefJoJo]

TTA is seeking public input for the future of it's services in the Triangle (BUS SYSTEM).

DURHAM

Monday, November 13, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Stanford L Warren Branch Library

1201 Fayetteville Street

CARY

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Bond Park Senior Citizen Center (High House Road between Cary Parkway & NW Maynard Road)

150 Metro Park Drive

RALEIGH

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Urban Design Center

133 Fayetteville Street

CHAPEL HILL

Thursday, November 16, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Chapel Hill Public Library

100 Library Drive

[RALBOI]

TTA is seeking public input for the future of it's services in the Triangle (BUS SYSTEM).

DURHAM

Monday, November 13, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Stanford L Warren Branch Library

1201 Fayetteville Street

CARY

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Bond Park Senior Citizen Center (High House Road between Cary Parkway & NW Maynard Road)

150 Metro Park Drive

RALEIGH

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Urban Design Center

133 Fayetteville Street

CHAPEL HILL

Thursday, November 16, 2006 from 5:00-8:00 PM

Chapel Hill Public Library

100 Library Drive

[urbanesq]

It's time for our leaders to step up to the plate! and take advantage of the soon to be"new politcial climate" in D.C. .It's a new day in goverment. Congressman Price is now one of the BIG DOGS !on capitol hill. When their's a balance of power, instead of one party rule things can suddenly get done in this case meaning the Bush admin now has to bargin for things now, but our leader have to show some guts! and plan a vision for our transportation future COMMENTS PLEASE WHAT DO YOU THINK FOLKS?

[sax184]

While the Bush administration has undoubtedly been bad for transit, this week's elections unfortunately do not change much for Regional Rail. The current transportation bill, SAFETEA, is in effect until 2009. The criteria for New Starts are mostly specified in SAFETEA, and interpreted by the FTA, which as far as I know, reports to Bush's Secretary of Transportation.

As far as I can tell, the Triangle is on its own financially to build the first portion of any rail system.