Triangle Regional Transit

[danclever]

I don't know what to think anymore. The chances are good that TTA will get the thumbs down next month, but yet I still hear voices of optimism.

I don't think anyone has posted the link to a report that NBC17 did last month. I was surprised to see a TV news report that didn't gleefully proclaim the demise of TTA.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9580617/detail.html

I'm not sure what the plan is that Frank Graff refers to, but he claims all the cities have signed on. Assuming the partnership goes forward, and the TOD is started, how much money would that shave off the bill? I doubt it would be enough to change TTA's fortunes next month, but I suppose the idea is that it could make it easier to scare up federal, state, local funds piecemeal sometime in the future?

How can they maintain the state's committment if FTA pulls the plug next month?

[JDC]

Ugh. That's very frustrating. I don't know if I want to live in a place that doesn't have regional rail (and can't get it either). It's just ridiculous.

[raleightransplant]

I don't know what to think anymore. The chances are good that TTA will get the thumbs down next month, but yet I still hear voices of optimism.

I don't think anyone has posted the link to a report that NBC17 did last month. I was surprised to see a TV news report that didn't gleefully proclaim the demise of TTA.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9580617/detail.html

I'm not sure what the plan is that Frank Graff refers to, but he claims all the cities have signed on. Assuming the partnership goes forward, and the TOD is started, how much money would that shave off the bill? I doubt it would be enough to change TTA's fortunes next month, but I suppose the idea is that it could make it easier to scare up federal, state, local funds piecemeal sometime in the future?

How can they maintain the state's committment if FTA pulls the plug next month?

Wow. I had yet to see this piece. I just need to see this thing move forward somehow...at this point if we need to do this thing locally somehow with the help of Cherokee--let's just find a way. It's just too important to the region.

[ralncdude]

N&O Story

TTA withdraws bid for transit line approval.

[monsoon]

Though I chalk it up to bad reporting, I am a bit confused by that article. It sounds as if they are no longer going to proceed with the currently plans, but the TTA is still going to move ahead with some kind of plan to bring rail to the corridor. I also don't understand why they can't do the ridership calculations by the end of September. Either they have the ridership or they don't. Maybe more details are coming in the next few days.

[romec]

The way that I read it, it seems as though its back to the drawing board. The TTA is going to reevaluate what it can do without federal funding and see what it can afford, and if some of the proposed line can be included down the road, then it will be included.

I don't think this is a death knell for regional rail in the Triangle, its just going to take a bit longer. If gas prices continue to shoot skyward, it should only get easier to convince voters that we need more mass transit. Also if we land another large employer, hopefully they can help get behind mass transit initiatives. At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking forward to a better system emerging from this down the road. Let's face it, the Triangle has changed a lot since regoinal rail was initially planned. If Raleigh is serious about its downtown it should look at becoming a rail hub for its suburbs. Garner, Cary and Knightdale aren't that far away, if downtown is a "destination" the ridership will be there in 8-10 years. I know my first thought in regional rail is always to connect downtown Raleigh, RTP and Durham; while its an important goal, it doesn't generate a lot of trips (at least not yet).

[romec]

Differently written article on WRAL

WRAL story

Makes it sound as though they are just looking for other sources of funding. Also makes it seem like the reason for withdrawal is just that they are sure that it isn't going to get approved (trying to stop any additional negative press?)

[ChiefJoJo]

Either they have the ridership or they don't.

I think it's clear the TTA does not. That's why the application was withdrawn. I actually think it was smart politically as it would have been another big PR blow to have FTA deny the project based on its merits. Imagine "Feds kill rail in the Triangle" as the headline. This is a smarter approach I think. TTA still is applying for the PPP program with Cherokee Partners as the Master Developer.

I take this a blow to the project but it's not dead. I'm sure TTA will be engaging the community in some way for the first time in a number of years on transit/transportation needs in the region. We cannot continue to just rely on roads to serve our needs. It is going to be crucial for those of us who support it to really speak out in the coming months if we want rail to happen in the Triangle.

[DanRNC]

The nimrod Isley made it clear why he opposed this project-essentially it shouldn't run anywhere except for Raleigh. The best way is to wait out the Bush administration and hope the next administration is more transit-oriented. Like I said from the beginning, the whole thing was politics.

[Atlside]

Here's how The Herald-Sun wrote about the rail project.

TTA: Rail funding to come from elsewhere

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-762403.html

It seems like the main problem with rail funding in Raleigh-Durham is they do not have a local 1/2 cent or 1 cent sales tax to fund mass transit.

The Raleigh-Durham area should have asked for a sales tax when the economy was really strong.

I bet now it will be very unlikely the region will want to pay a higher sales tax.

Charlotte and Mecklenburg County were smart to ask for a sales tax when they did.

Just think about this. Raleigh-Durham started planning for rapid rail transit well before Charlotte or Greensboro/Winston-Salem. Now, Charlotte has their rail system under construction and Greensboro/Winston-Salem have caught up with TTA in a lot of ways now.

http://www.partnc.org/5-rail.htm

[Cary NC]

What gets me is the projection from the Hearld Sun article that only 10,200 riders in 2035. Come on. With close to 2 million people living here by then and 1.3 million just in Wake county you can't tell me just .5% ( thats right 1/2 percent will be riding the rail). That is a bogus number. Shoot, in Salt lake City that has the same metro population as us right now of 1.5M has ridership after just 6 years of 35,000. That projection is a load of crap if I have ever seen one. Their rail only goes to the downtown and the University of Utah just like ours. Whoever came up with that number needs a good knockin.

[kayman]

People, this whole situation is what happens when politics is taken into the equation of the construction and operation of rail transit. Just look at the following cities: Charleston, Birmingham, and Columbia. You will realize that is what happens when negligence and lack of political backbone does to mass transit. At least Birmingham has the federal funding of some $80M set aside for its mass transit via US Senator Richard Shelby being on the FTA committee, but lack of local inititative to fund a local match to use this money. Honestly, Durham Harold-Sun said The Triangle should have jumped on the sales tax funding train back when Charlotte did back in the late 1990's to early 2000's period. The chances of a sales tax leverage passed anywhere in the South is VERY UNLIKELY in this current economy.

[ChiefJoJo]

"I'm glad they did drop out because the project didn't make sense," said state Rep. Paul Stam, R-Wake. "I'll hope they use the money for transit things that are more flexible and nimble -- [carpool] lanes, buses, whatever. I hope the money the state was going to put into it will be redirected into improvements to our highway system."

What a load of crap. Nobody in this area has any vision for the future... no ability to see what's not staring them in the face. Yeah, connecting the DT areas, universities, hospitals and RTP makes nooo sense. Yep, let's just build more roads! That's worked really well so far for wonderfully liveable cities such as Atlanta and Houston. How about build another beltway... the REALLY Outer Loop... we'll call it I-1240.

[RALBOI]

Here's how The Herald-Sun wrote about the rail project.

TTA: Rail funding to come from elsewhere

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-762403.html

It seems like the main problem with rail funding in Raleigh-Durham is they do not have a local 1/2 cent or 1 cent sales tax to fund mass transit.

The Raleigh-Durham area should have asked for a sales tax when the economy was really strong.

I bet now it will be very unlikely the region will want to pay a higher sales tax.

Charlotte and Mecklenburg County were smart to ask for a sales tax when they did.

Just think about this. Raleigh-Durham started planning for rapid rail transit well before Charlotte or Greensboro/Winston-Salem. Now, Charlotte has their rail system under construction and Greensboro/Winston-Salem have caught up with TTA in a lot of ways now.

http://www.partnc.org/5-rail.htm

I agree, also the TTA leadership has done this backwards from the start they should have went to business and community leaders from the start and push hard for proper local funding and support, the economy in the triangle is firing on all cylinders right now, but it's going to be very difficult to do anything in Wake county, because people are already upset about the BILLION DOLLAR school bond , and the property taxes going up. They don't care if it's only one cents or a half cent they aren't trying to hear it, it's real sad to me because this area will suffer in the future without real mass transit. WEAR IS THE LEADERSHIP!!!!! and why has know one in the ranks of the TTA leadership been held accountable for there failers to bring or help bring mass transit to the Triangle!

[ncwebguy]

Asking for 60 percent, or even 60 cents, from the Bush Administration FTA - thout US Senate support - is suicide. The FTA ridership counting methods have no basis in reality, yet they are used to distribute very real dollars. At first, Elizabeth Dole said it wasn't fair to move the finish line; now she is sticking to the "too bad you're not gonna make it" party line.

The TTA has an FTA-approved local funding source, the rental car tax. It did not ask for a half or one cent sales tax because it was told the rental car tax was enoguh. Of course this was when they assumed NCRR and the freight companies that owned the tracks would play nice without actually asking them. Why raise the sales tax if the whole project was to cost $100-200 million?

Can impact fees be used to pay for *all* transit? New construction in south Wake would go towards 540, Raleigh's fee would go towards a rail line that incorporates the two North Raleigh stations. A multi-county regional gas tax could also work, but will never happen. Republicans are already working on capping, or even repealing, the existing state gas tax. Raleigh already passed a bond to pay for state roads the state won't take care of, but that was before the school bond was on the ballot.

Being asleep at the proverbial wheel while costs were increasing and CSX, etc. were playing hardball is blame that needs to be placed at the feet of TTA. The Cherokee Partners Plan B could probably work, but $500 million will have to come from somewhere. Cherokee can pitch in some, but not all. They could start construction near a few stops that could easily be retrofitted for a no-train future. This is already happening at Triangle Metro Center, the Downtown Raleigh stations (warehouse district, West at North), Downtown Durham (American Tobacco), and 9th Street (Duke Central Campus, Station 9). The area around the rail line will already be less dense than it is now by 2008, a year before the trains would come online.

I don't know what color the sky is in Paul Stam's world, but carpool lanes are not "more flexible and nimble" than a rail line last time I checked. They are probably as expensive, and the state DOT says there's no money for existing road projects, let alone new ones.

[ChiefJoJo]

There are some good and bad things about this decision:

Good:

--> we would have failed the FTA test anyway, so pulling the plug saves face and a PR nightmare.

--> allows us to open up the possibilities of Cherokee, adding back the 4 phase 2 stations, and exploring local funding options.

Bad:

--> allows anti-rail critics to seize the spotlight and derail the plan

--> opens up the idea of more local funding at a time when funding infrastructure for growth is a supreme challenge and a difficult sell to the public

--> could risk losing local political and financial support for rail in the Triangle

Raleigh Mayor Charles Meeker says he thinks the two regional transportation-planning groups that oversee highway programs in Wake, Durham and Orange counties should band together and hire a consultant "to take an independent view of what the right solution today is to the transit question."

The two groups should look for a consultant who hasn't worked on TTA's project, and TTA itself shouldn't lead the effort because "they'll just [go with] the rail again," Meeker said.

Problem is that I can't see any other solution that is going to cause real change in the regions development patterns and ensure a sustainable future. Buiilding more roads isn't the solution and you can do studies for ten years and it won't tell you anything different--the rail is in the correct location. Note to Philip Isley: Briar Breek is about an transit unfriendly as I can imagine.

TTA officials said Friday the pullback would allow them to reconsider a number of controversial decisions, including scaling the project down from 16 to 12 stops and shelving a link to Raleigh-Durham International Airport.

It's also possible they'd reconsider the decision to make the corridor a rail project, instead of one that would use buses. "The way I view it is that everything's on the table for discussion," Reckhow said.

Szlosberg, however, was cool to backing off on rail. "People who are willing to invest in housing stock and commercial real estate are going to follow definitive investments like steel on the ground," she said. "They are not going to invest in a route that may change."

I like what I hear fron Szlosberg here. (Geary says she may run for Mayor of Raleigh if Meeker doesn't run again) If we waste $140M of taxpayer money buy starting over, what will that say to the folks that have invested around these stations that have been essentially in place for several years?

We need a new PR plan, a transit system plan, a stronger local funding source, better land use policies, add back the other 4 stations (Duke Med [25k employees!], Highwoods, New Hope, and Spring Forest), and bring in Cherokee in a PPP to get this rail done.

FYI, here's the TTA Q&A.

[sax184]

Raleigh Mayor Charles Meeker says he thinks the two regional transportation-planning groups that oversee highway programs in Wake, Durham and Orange counties should band together and hire a consultant "to take an independent view of what the right solution today is to the transit question."

The two groups should look for a consultant who hasn't worked on TTA's project, and TTA itself shouldn't lead the effort because "they'll just [go with] the rail again," Meeker said.

ChiefJoJo- can you link to the source(s) with the quotes from Meeker, Reckhow, and Szlosberg in your post above?

[ChiefJoJo]

Sure, it's from the Herald Sun article.

[monsoon]

We need a new PR plan, a transit system plan, a stronger local funding source, better land use policies, add back the other 4 stations (Duke Med [25k employees!], Highwoods, New Hope, and Spring Forest), and bring in Cherokee in a PPP to get this rail done.

I think the TTA leadership needs to be held accountable for the debacle of spending $140M over 12 years and there still is no definitive plan for bringing rail to the area. And what I mean by being made accountable, is they need to fire some people at the very top.

The Cherokee Investments idea is interesting, but I can't imagine that any corporation is going to get involved with a bunch of people that have burned through this much money with so little to show for it. I would say there are going to have to be major organizational and personnel changes before this happens.

[ncwebguy]

If you ask the TTA, "what should we do to reduce traffic congestion in the future", everyone knows their answer will be rail. But if you ask the two regional transportation-planning groups that oversee highway programs in the area to hire a consultant with an "independent view", everyone knows their answer will be highways. The study will take at least a year to conduct, and will probably incorporate something trying to pass as mass transit -- carpool and/or bus-only lanes on 40 and 540. Through all the smoke and mirrors, a consultant hired by highway builders will provied a highway based solution. Period. I hope Mayor Meeker knows this, but with that quote I can't be certain.

For the $140 million spent so far, the TTA has the system design, the cars, and over 90% of the land needed for the project. Right now it is a turnkey project that just happens to have a really expensive key. If Cherokee thinks it can pay for that key by developing the land at and near the stations with federal funds picking up 25% or so of the tab in 2008, it could happen. Adding the phase II stations in phase I would increase ridership and give Cherokee more development opportunities. It may add another revenue stream, with Duke paying a U Pass for students to be able to ride for free. Another revenue stream for Cherokee would be assisting nearby land owners (Dillon Supply in downtown Raleigh, Duke's Central Campus) develop their land.

[ChiefJoJo]

New article in the N&O here discusses what to do with the rental car tax and land that has been purchased for the rail stations.

Gotta love this quote:

"The right-of-way that they've acquired should be kept," Stam said. "In 30 or 40 years, we might have the density."

What a moron.

story graphic:

[sax184]

I think the TTA leadership needs to be held accountable for the debacle of spending $140M over 12 years and there still is no definitive plan for bringing rail to the area. And what I mean by being made accountable, is they need to fire some people at the very top.

The Cherokee Investments idea is interesting, but I can't imagine that any corporation is going to get involved with a bunch of people that have burned through this much money with so little to show for it. I would say there are going to have to be major organizational and personnel changes before this happens.

There is an extremely definitive plan to bring rail to the area. It's called TTA Regional Rail Phase I, the 12-station version, which tells you exactly where to lay every piece of rail. With the money to build, you could break ground tomorrow.

The hard truth here is that members of local governments all over the Triangle participated in the process that picked the alignment of Regional Rail 10 years ago. A regional consensus informed by these politicians, business leaders, and the public informed the type of vehicles that would be used, where the stations would go, and so forth. Then, somewhere along the way, the region's leaders became bored or disinterested and it became "TTA's project," as if TTA snuck into the region and forced it on everybody else, putting the line in the "wrong location" without their participation. That's just not the case.

Then you've got nimrods like Isley grousing that it doesn't go to Brier Creek. Brier Creek was FIELDS and FOREST when they picked the station locations! No wonder the train doesn't go there. If Isley had only been around ten years ago to say, "you know, there's a terrific bunch of shrubs north of the airport. I think the train should go there," then maybe he could support the project today.

What is missing is funding to build the project and political will to move forward. And here in the Triangle, especially in Wake County, our so-called leaders fear anti-tax zealots more than they love the future of the region, which means we do everything on the cheap and whenever someone tells us we need to invest in infrastructure, people put their fingers in their ears and hope that if they ignore the issue enough, the problem will go away.

Until we cure this type of "Triangle disease," expect a lot of kids in Wake County to be educated in trailers, expect our transportation system to deteriorate, and expect our development patterns to become a greater drain on our tax dollars and natural resources.

ChiefJoJo is right. There isn't any vision at the leadership level in this region. Ultimately, it is also true that you get what you pay for. In the Triangle, we can't visualize anything good, and we're just not willing to pay for anything good. Therefore, we won't get anything good.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Since it appears that no one currently in office,(Triangle wide), will listen to common sense and help us with our transportation needs, I say one or more of us here on Urban Planet run for public office and at least start the debate. Sorry for the run on sentence.

[only]

...but carpool lanes are not "more flexible and nimble" than a rail line last time I checked. They are probably as expensive...

If you want to understand why the TTA rail line can't get any serious public support, you don't have to look any further than this one quote.

The primary boosters of the project... the guys out there promoting the project day in and day out, all say stupid things like this. And then they get them broadcast on the local news.

How can you expect to provide meaningful support to the project if you don't understand fundamental differences between auto, bus, and rail transportation methods? How can you expect to persuade the people of the area to cough up their money to fund the project, if you brush away the criticisms of the anti-rail people?

You may not agree with them, but they do have substantial, well-considered arguments. But you don't even bother to confront them point-by-point. Search this board for mentions of John Locke. 95% of the time, the quote will go something like, "Ugh, those people are stupid, I hate them... UGH!" The responses are never thoughful. At best, someone will offer up anecdotal evidence that kinda-sorta supports their point of view. Is that really productive?

You can blame poor management at the TTA, you can blame a lack of "foresight" by local politicians (WTF that means), but in the end, the only ones to blame are the backers of the project that have refused to provide a persuasive argument for building it in the first place.

And if you're going to reply to this, insisting that you've been arguing the point for years, you can save your breath. You've already missed the point entirely.

[monsoon]

There is an extremely definitive plan to bring rail to the area. It's called TTA Regional Rail Phase I, the 12-station version, which tells you exactly where to lay every piece of rail. With the money to build, you could break ground tomorrow.

By definitive, I mean there are no dates for when the trains will be rolling. You can have the best looking plans in the world, but if there are no ways to pay for it, then they are just ink on paper. (and we all know what that is worth) I said several years ago the car rental tax simply was not going to cut it for this system but I was shocked they are only collecting $7M/year. How in the world did they expect to come up with $200M+ in local funding with that as the only source of revenue? (and they will have to subdize operating costs out of that fund as well)

The TTA did not do its due diligence and now the area won't have rail because of it. If they don't act quickly to get some viable financing in place, I predict this entire project will collapse very soon and that will be the end of it.