2035 Triangle Regional Transit Vision Plan

[Gard]

This isn't about this transit plan per say, but very cool non the less! Kane has launched a study to investigate building a transit system for North HIlls. The transit system would have 4-person passenger cars that would take people to transit stops around North HIlls on-demand. The cars would ride on a fixed rail. Pretty neat idea and solution that could be used to adapt current sprawled areas to be more friendly to mass transit. I can see something like this working well in areas like TTC, where the terrain is different levels and things are spread out a bit.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/business/expanding-north-hills-considers-installing-its-own-transit-system

[RALNATIVE]

I was very happy to see this article today. Kane is one of the few big developers in Raleigh who has a vision and can actually bring that vision to fruition. There was also an article in TBJ:

North Hills Rail

Edited May 25, 2011 by RALNATIVE

[Euphorius]

I wonder how much Kane plans on expanding North Hills. The TBJ article says the transit system would make a figure eight track between Six Forks and Wake Forest Rd. Does he own the land with the apt complexes behind Bahama Breeze and Denny's? I realize people live there, but those apt complexes have seen much better days. If it extends all the way to Wake Forest Rd., could there possibly be a stop at Duke Raleigh Hospital?

[RALNATIVE]

My thinking is that if this gets built, it will spur alot more urban and dense development in the midtown area.

[Jones_]

Seems like he would need rights-of-way to cross the beltline and to use any public street space. That a free market might produce a transit system may cause conservative heads to implode....

[Euphorius]

I thought the same thing Jones. I'm sure the folks at John Locke Foundation and Civitas Institute are a click away from having an embolism after reading that article.

[orulz]

Kane owns a lot of land along St Albans. If he's going to extend it as far as Wake Forest why not go as far as Atlantic for a connection to the Light Rail system?

[DaleCooper]

This is quite interesting. I'm not sure PRT will ever be appropriate for larger scale mass transit and commuting, but on small scale developments like this (and Heathrow) it seems to have some potential. If something like this were to happen it would be a pretty big deal for the area. Any instance of a private developer investing in their own transit system is incredible to begin with, plus it could cause a demographic (many North Hills customers) that might not ordinarily embrace transit systems to warm up to them. Plus, this could be the first modern PRT system in the country. That's a long ways off, though, and I'm curious as to what the feasibility study will show.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Awesome concept that could make North Hills the new and improved urban Tysons Corner.

[ERJ170]

Upon reading the TBJ and N&O article, the first place that popped in my mind was.. RTP.. it would be a big selling point if RTP had a Ultra system that zipped around the Triangle.. It would only be the best thing for the premier research conglomerate area in the nation.. Right? RIGHT!!!

[ctl]

Problem is, "zip" is a relative term. At 50 mph, yeah. At 20 mph, it's dead on arrival. RTP is just too spread out.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I have been reading recent news about the NC Senate and Charlotte's light-rail,(and our very possible future), and it is NOT good! The "one's" in power,(trying not to inject politics), don't seem to want to budge on letting the city of Charlotte expand there light-rail system? They are saying that it would simply cost the state to much money, now and in the future? Thoughts?

[ctl]

Several things at play here... many (not all) conservatives believe that public transportation facilities are a money pit and that, more to the point, the facilities aren't used or wanted by the conservatives' voter base. You see the same attitudes towards the NCDOT rail projects Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh. There is also the unfortunate problem that the state budget is overstressed at the moment and there are only two ways to deal with it: cut expenditures or raise taxes. If you cut, the question is whose ox will be gored. The Charlotte system doesn't have a lot of statewide support in the General Assembly, so it's vulnerable.

[DaleCooper]

Budget allocation for Charlotte's light rail is back on track: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/05/31/2340200/light-rail-money-back-in-budget.html

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Budget allocation for Charlotte's light rail is back on track: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/05/31/2340200/light-rail-money-back-in-budget.html

His convincing argument is "That it was needed!" LOL!!

That is to funny! I wonder what the real reason was? I am truly not trying to be funny, I just want to know what was really said/done/or how much $$$, so that when Raleigh runs into this same issue, we will know in advance how to proceed?

[Jones_]

The Charlotte system always had business support so I am guessing those folks reminded those in office who donates to their campaigns...

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

What does everyone think of the option "D6a" chosen for the new future light rail route through downtown Raleigh by the City of Raleigh's Passenger Rail Task Force?

[orulz]

D6a does get closer to Fayetteville street than D6, but the closest station is still three blocks away from Fayetteville, and still 8/10 mile from the Convention Center.

I still like D5 best. The PRTF and city staff determined that there were challenges to implementing D5 so they unanimously decided to drop it; I'd be more interested in learning what those challenges are and if anything can be done to address them. Perhaps come up with a D5a.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

If by D5a you mean, come into downtown Raleigh on West Morgan? Then it could continue on West Morgan, vear right into the Wye area/Union Station @ Glenwood Ave and then continue the D5 coming into the convention center area? I think that this option hits most of the cbd and would allow for added growth that would come later. IMHO!

[orulz]

If by D5a you mean, come into downtown Raleigh on West Morgan? Then it could continue on West Morgan, vear right into the Wye area/Union Station @ Glenwood Ave and then continue the D5 coming into the convention center area? I think that this option hits most of the cbd and would allow for added growth that would come later. IMHO!

That's pretty much what I had in mind. I mentioned the possibility you suggest to Bill Houppermans (the consultant working with TTA on the plan) at one of the public meetings several months ago. His initial reaction was that it seemed interesting, but I'm not sure if they carried it forward for any further analysis or if they did some initial analysis and found a fatal flaw or whatever.

I'm not necessarily advocating one specific technical solution, though; I'd mostly just like to know the specific reasons D5 was abandoned, and if there's any possibility of taking a different approach and making it work.

It may well be that they looked at this from every possible angle and there's really no way to make it work. If so, then D6a is the best alternative I've seen so far.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

How in the world can you justify having a light rail route that goes up and around the government complex, then comes back down and never reaches a single area that can be upgraded to add more potential riders? Also, this area is not where most of the CBD business are located. I only see some state employees and maybe state visitors using this? What is up with this D6a option? If it's money that's the concern, then D6 is going to be the only option the city/state will choose....IMHO!

[DaleCooper]

The city council voted 6-2 for option D6 yesterday, so that will be the preferred route barring something completely unforseen.

[kermit]

Warning: A financially unrealistic suggestion follows

I was just looking at a 1920 rail map of NC and noticed the line connecting Moncure (now on the CSX) and Pittsboro.

http://www.carolana.com/NC/Transportation/railroads/nc_railroads_1920.html

It occured to me this presents a small opportunity to make Chapel Hill less isolated in the commuter rail network. All it would take would be:

1) massive and expensive upgrading of the current route between the NCRR and Carrboro

and

2) Lay new rail between Carrboro and the old ROW in Pittsboro (it can't be THAT expensive, you would only need to pass through one historic district, one medical school campus and then cross over the Haw river (<-- sarcasm)

and

3) Establish the old ROW between Pittsboro and Monecure (I am sure the corridor is still there <-- more sarcasm)

and

4) Get CSX's permission to run to Raleigh union station

5) It would also be possible to run direct to Durham via preserved ROW from Bonsal

This would have the considerable virtue of connecting the fast growing portions of Chatham County and Apex to downtowns in the area. Unfortunately I suspect that it would be a LONG trip from Chapel Hill to Raleigh or Durham. But you could establish a true loop service from Raleigh, Durham, Hillsborough (on a stub), Chapel Hill, Pittsboro and Apex and Cary.

Just daydreaming.....

[ctl]

Pittsboro-Moncure was abandoned in the 1970s or 1980s. There was talk circa 2000 of restoring it for an industry that was considering a new plant near Pittsboro, but the industry went elsewhere -- in part because of NIMBY opposition (something to bear in mind). Most of the Pittsboro-Moncure railroad right of way was subsequently sold. Also, the line had been inexpensively constructed in the 1880s for 10-25 mph speeds. Even if the right of way were intact, it wouldn't be suitable as-is for passenger service today.

For those reasons, an entirely new line would have to be built Carrboro-Pittsboro-Moncure (25 miles). For virgin territory like this (requiring purchase of right of way), the cost would be at least $500 million -- and uncooperative land holders could tie it up in court for years. Moreover, the Federal Railroad Administration won't allow a light rail system to operate over CSX freight trackage Moncure-Apex-Cary-Raleigh. Either the Carrboro-Pittsboro-Moncure line would have to be built to full FRA standards at even higher cost, or a parallel light rail line would have to be built Moncure-Raleigh at high cost.

Bottom line: it will never happen.

[kermit]

Thanks for the history on the Pittsboro-Moncue line, it was much appreciated. For what its worth my pie in the sky proposal was for commuter rail (thus feasible to run on the CSX) rather than LRT (but I didn't make that clear).

While the larger fantasy of a circular commuter rail loop around the Triangle was a largely pointless exercise, there remains a very real issue of the Chapel Hill spur line. There is talk that UNC will abandon its coal fired steam plant -- such a move would remove the last of the freight traffic from the rail line (I believe the traffic is 2-3 trains of 4-6 hoppers of coal per week). Since there are no other freight generators on the route I can't imagine that NS would want to maintain the line after that.

Since the line runs due north (rather than east to the rest of the Triangle) its a bit of a conundrum. Certainly high frequency service from the main campus to the Chapel Hill North Campus would be appropriate and, given shifting residential patterns in the Western Triangle, I would think commuter service to Hillsborogh and Mebane (via an expanded Eubanks rd park and ride) would also be useful -- unfortunately I can't imagine that travel time to Durham on these tracks would ever be competitive. It would certainly be a shame for this line to grow weeds but the challenge is clearly finding the cash to increase speeds on the line enough to make the service useful to passengers-- particularly with at least three civil war era trestles to deal with.