TransitFacts.com

[Neo]

Today I'm rolling out a new feature in association with UrbanPlanet.org. TransitFacts.com exists to educate the masses about mass transit options and why it should be supported. I've created what content is on the site thus far but I would like to get some of your suggestions and assistance with the FAQ parts of the site. I need hard questions and answers regarding each type of transit I have sections for (below).

• Light Rail

• Heavy Rail

• Commuter Rail

• Streetcar

• Monorail

• Bus

• Ferry

Thanks to all UrbanPlaneteers that wish to help make a change in their community and others!

TransitFacts.com

[convulso]

i hope you get solid input. i'm not a pro on transit, but i hope the UPers who are will step up with good info to flesh out this site. i look forward to checking this out as it grows.

exciting stuff - thanks!

[Spartan]

I higly reccomend that you check out this website: http://www.publictransportation.org/facts/

I see no reason why this information can't be used. I've taken some of their facts and added questions to them.

Q: People say that paying for transit is a waste of money. But what is the real economic impact of transit?

A: Every $1 invested in public transportation projects generates from $4 to $9 in local economic activity.

Q: Transit costs a lot much more per mile than a road. Why not save money and build more roads?

A1: Every $10 million invested in public transportation saves more than $15 million in transportation costs, for both highway and transit users.

A2: It is estimated that every $10 million in capital investment in public transportation yields $30 million in increased business sales, and that every $10 million in operating investment in public transportation yields $32 million in increased business sales.

Q: Does public transit bring down real estate values?

A: No way! Real estate -- residential, commercial or business -- that is served by public transportation is valued more highly by the public than similar properties not as well served by transit.

Source: http://www.publictransportation.org/facts/

[Spartan]

Q: Will transit bring crime to my neighborhood?

A: No. You are just as safe having a transit stop near your house as you are having a road in front of it. Studies show that there is virtually no change in crime rate after a transit station is built.

-----------

I'm not sure what study I read this in, but I know it to be true. But just think about it: if a somebody wants to rob you, they are probably more likely to take a private mode of transportation than a public one.

[GRDadof3]

Great site NEO! One thing I noticed when looking at it under the light rail section is that it talks about "grade-separated" and "right of way". A lot of people I've found (even on this site) don't know what those terms mean. Visual examples of these would be great if added (the more pictures the better I always say).

Also, it'd be cool if you could maybe show how a well-planned comprehensive transit system works, maybe with graphics of what JohnQ would go through in a typical day riding mass transit, and how it's different than just your average bus routes:

- feeder buses that serve light rail or commuter rail stations

- park-n-ride lots for commuters

- examples of Transit Oriented Developments

- perhaps the typical stop times, headways (time between trains), average speeds, deceleration times, etc.. of each mode and how that compares to driving that same corridor

- examples of monthly fare passes and typical costs

- what happens when you get to your destination station (transfer from light rail to streetcar? express buses? walk, etc.)

- examples of good and bad station designs

And perhaps how to start a Citizen's Transit Coalition in your area.

Educating the public is key, and you have to assume they know very little (if anything) of how real mass transit works IMO. We're now going on 4 or 5 generations of people who have never even seen a streetcar system in action in their cities. Even many public officials are clueless.

Just some ideas. Sorry to pile on.

Jeff

[tamias6]

Another suggestion would be to interview individuals that switched from driving cars to using public transit options and post their remarks on your new website. This would enable visitors to gauge the benefits using mass transit at a personal level.

[Neo]

Another suggestion would be to interview individuals that switched from driving cars to using public transit options and post their remarks on your new website. This would enable visitors to gauge the benefits using mass transit at a personal level.

That is why this thread is here! Anyone who has switched from private to public transportation is welcome to make a post about their personal findings, hardships, etc. I personally lived in Chicago without owning an automobile so I was stuck walking or taking public transit and I loved it, but I'd like to get other user's input on this rather than my own for the site.

[nowensone]

I want to play the devil's advocate on these two for a moment because someone like myself (were they against transit) is going to ask the obvious follow up question to these kinds of answers:

Q: People say that paying for transit is a waste of money. But what is the real economic impact of transit?

A: Every $1 invested in public transportation projects generates from $4 to $9 in local economic activity.

[Neo]

I want to play the devil's advocate on these two for a moment because someone like myself (were they against transit) is going to ask the obvious follow up question to these kinds of answers:

So how much does $1 in roads generate in local economic activity?

A1: Breakdown the transportation costs included in the $15 million saved so I don't have to assume your math is correct and that you aren't taking liberties with assumptions and causality-effect relationships

A2: What are the associated figures for roads?

Those are excellent rebuttals and are duley noted. If anyone can source an unbiased study that presents facts for both cases (roads and public transit) I will be more than happy to update the figures.

[Neo]

Also, if anyone who lives in a mid-sized or smaller city has given up private transportation in favor of public transportation either part or all of the time, I would love to get a write-up from you on it. What kind of transportation do you now use, what did you switch from? What savings have you incurred by switching? Has it made your life easier, harder, or has there not been a noticeable change? Anything else you'd like to include would be great! A pseudo name will be used in place of your real name to protect identity. Thanks!

[nowensone]

Many people (myself included) used mass transit almost exclusively during their college years, but is this going to make a creditable/persuasive testimonial? Seems like it might be viewed as a right of passage for this time of life, of course, it does go to the heart of the issue which is that it is much cheaper than having a vehicle, paying for parking and is therefore why many college students use it.

[monsoon]

.... heart of the issue which is that it is much cheaper than having a vehicle, paying for parking and is therefore why many college students use it.

[Neo]

Many people (myself included) used mass transit almost exclusively during their college years, but is this going to make a creditable/persuasive testimonial? Seems like it might be viewed as a right of passage for this time of life, of course, it does go to the heart of the issue which is that it is much cheaper than having a vehicle, paying for parking and is therefore why many college students use it.

Public transit is almost a requirement of any college student IMO so that wouldn't be a good example. There are fortunately lots of people using public transit that are in post-college points in their life. It is no doubt easier in larger cities such as Chicago or New York City to get around solely by using public transportation, but there are certainly options in mid-sized and smaller cities to at least reduce the percentage of your life you spend using private transportation options.

[nowensone]

And you have in part answered your own question. $1 spent on roads does not equate to the true cost of such a transit system since the vehicles needed to used it are privately owned for the most part. Automobiles (and their variations) for most people in the USA represent their biggest expense over a lifetime given that it is a depreciating asset. If you are going to compare the cost of transit vs the cost of building more roads then these factors should be taken into consideration.

If you build ten miles of transit, you pretty know all of the costs associated with it. If you build ten miles of road, you really do now know how much it costs society since the cost of the vehicles, the military cost of securing oil supplies from dangerous locations, govermnent spending on oil infrastructure, etc. are not taken into consideration.

[monsoon]

Undecided on that from a logistical standpoint. I agree that the "unknown" costs are high, probably higher than we could even guess at, but that may be insignificant if it turns out that $1 in road spending results in a $40 economic benefit to society. I think we really need to know what that number actually is, it will be the conclusive fact to use in a debate.

[Neo]

The fact that most of the econimic wealth of the world exists in large cities where the former is the norm is probably answer enough to that question. The combined GDPs of NYC, London, Paris, Tokyo, Osaka, and Hong Kong, are surprising and higher than most of the countries of the world. Their economies for the most part do not rely on endless road building.

There is absolutely no debate that in a city like New York, a subway line can spur several times more economic return than a road on the same path can just based on capacity of the route alone. Places like New York City would simply shut down if public transit grinded to a halt so I believe those cities are on a much higher level than the typical mid-sized or small-sized city in America or abroad. Charlotte for example just isn't going to see the economic development around a station like New York City or Tokyo does. So many factors are in play here it is hard to pin hard stats down.

[nowensone]

That question can't be answered unless it is bound by some conditions so a fair comparison can be made and what you consider to be economic benefit. The question would be what is the economic benefit of building TOD around a transit line vs building miles of cul de sac roads and suburbs? That answer will vary depending upon what you are counting.

The fact that most of the econimic wealth of the world exists in large cities where the former is the norm is probably answer enough to that question. The combined GDPs of NYC, London, Paris, Tokyo, Osaka, and Hong Kong, are surprising and higher than most of the countries of the world. Their economies for the most part do not rely on endless road building.

[Neo]

how were the figures determined for the mass transit numbers?

I'm not sure of the particular math involved in getting those numbers, but it was pulled from the following where sources are listed at the bottom:

http://www.publictransportation.org/pdf/re...s/essential.pdf

[monsoon]

I think the guy on the street you just explained that to got that glassy look in his eyes...

...

[nowensone]

^ Touche. In the event you really thought I was referring to myself I was not, your explanation, while true, is not applicable here (to Charlotte) and is therefore unlikely to make much sense to the average person. By guy on the street I mean the person that this Transit campaign is directed at. Most aren't going to change their minds no matter what you hit them with, so we're probably targeting the few who as in a political elections are the "swing votes", and for whom a simple number is more meaningful than the comparison to the world's Alpha cities.

[Cotuit]

Also, if anyone who lives in a mid-sized or smaller city has given up private transportation in favor of public transportation either part or all of the time, I would love to get a write-up from you on it.

[Spartan]

The question of how much return on a road investment that you get is indeed a valid one, but I think that its not relevant. The point of the $4-$9 return on every $1 of transit investment is to justify the expense. It is not that transit is somehow better than a road in that regard, and it proves that transit is not a "sinkhole" or a waste of money like anti-transit people want to believe it is.

Roads result in returns too, but the range would be pretty rediculous because each type of road is different, and traffic on them is not guaranteed. I know of roads that have been widened because "it will generate economic activity" and it has been a failure.

[tamias6]

Maybe this question would apply to large cities where a great number of people depend on mass transit as their only means of getting from point A to point B. But in situations of commuting to and from the work place or heading into downtown to catch some entertainment and maybe some light shopping mass transit would be a prime solution. But how do auto-less people do heavy amounts of shopping, namely for groceries? As a person who owns a car its a snap to haul 150 to 200 dollars worth of groceries home. But its hard for me to see a person walking a quarter mile or so to a mass transit station, ride the mass transit back to his neighbor hood and then walking another quarter mile back to his home all while lugging ten to fifteen bags of groceries in his arms. I'm sure there is a way to do it as auto-less people in place like NYC or Chicago surely can't survive on restaurant food alone.

[traal]

If you build ten miles of road, you really do now know how much it costs society since the cost of the vehicles, the military cost of securing oil supplies from dangerous locations, govermnent spending on oil infrastructure, etc. are not taken into consideration.

[Cotuit]

Maybe this question would apply to large cities where a great number of people depend on mass transit as their only means of getting from point A to point B. But in situations of commuting to and from the work place or heading into downtown to catch some entertainment and maybe some light shopping mass transit would be a prime solution. But how do auto-less people do heavy amounts of shopping, namely for groceries? As a person who owns a car its a snap to haul 150 to 200 dollars worth of groceries home. But its hard for me to see a person walking a quarter mile or so to a mass transit station, ride the mass transit back to his neighbor hood and then walking another quarter mile back to his home all while lugging ten to fifteen bags of groceries in his arms. I'm sure there is a way to do it as auto-less people in place like NYC or Chicago surely can't survive on restaurant food alone.