Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[aowwt]

Uhm DASH is not allowed. Remember we are talking about pure car travel versus hybrid of car and transit. I know I could get a DASH lot pretty easy enough but thats not the point. DASH is not used by everybody as they should.

[Raildudes dad]

Uhm DASH is not allowed. Remember we are talking about pure car travel versus hybrid of car and transit. I know I could get a DASH lot pretty easy enough but thats not the point. DASH is not used by everybody as they should.

Uh, then I park under the Devos Place Place for a max of $10 for the day or I'll park in the Scribner lot for $3.00 in coins for the day and I know I'll beat the BRT. I know I can get a parking spot in both lots at 7AM. Middle of the day...maybe not so easy.

[suydam]

Uhm DASH is not allowed. Remember we are talking about pure car travel versus hybrid of car and transit. I know I could get a DASH lot pretty easy enough but thats not the point. DASH is not used by everybody as they should.

BRT is meant to speed up the commute... not speed up a "car only" commute. I think DASH has to be allowed in any analysis of the speed benefits of BRT.

Also... "DASH is not used by everybody as they should" is a clear indictment of mass-transit downtown. That could be used as a reason to vote against the Silver Line. "Hey, people don't even use the DASH lots as they should... why should we expect they'll flock to a glorified DASH lot at 60th St.?"

I'm still not at all convinced that buses running up division, in traffic on regular roadways are going to be as fantastic as we're told. I just don't see the public flocking to this.

That said, I'm in EGR, and voting for the BRT... despite my misgivings, I think it's a small risk (in terms of millage) for the potential reward.

[aowwt]

So now you just 3 dollars for a parking spot for one day. The millage is 1 dollar for a month and I think 1.50 or 2 dollars for the bus ticket. So consider the possibility of saving a few minutes if that for the cost of the BRT I think this proves it for me that the BRT is worth it. I know it is not cheap to park downtown, been there done that for two jury duties and had that paid for.

I still look at the traffic on 131 and how it has not decreased and yet we are in a recession in the state. I think the biggest issue we face in the state is how we fund for items. I think we need to get rid of the state income and sales tax. I believe a statewide property tax would be the easiest and safest way to fund everything. But frankly we need to do something to drive investment in our cities. This is the first step in many steps in helping our cities. Say do you think 28th street could be widened enough to do what Cleveland did with their Health Line BRT in having two dedicated lanes in the center with a small median on each side to seperate it from the car traffic. I guess it would look like this,

building{sodEmoji.|}_sidewalk_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_2 traffic lanes_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_2 BRT Lanes_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_2 traffic lanes_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_sidewalk_{sodEmoji.|}building

[JoeSchmo]

Uh, then I park under the Devos Place Place for a max of $10 for the day or I'll park in the Scribner lot for $3.00 in coins for the day and I know I'll beat the BRT. I know I can get a parking spot in both lots at 7AM. Middle of the day...maybe not so easy.

The point of mass transit isnt to beat the car but to offer a competitive alternative to the car. OK, you barely beat the BRT in your scenario. On the other hand if you rode the BRT, youd hop on maybe read a book, not even have to think about parking or driving for that matter, hop off without getting mad at any drivers who cut you off, help the environment while you're at it, and assist in keeping oil prices low by lowering demand.

[mgreven]

So I've been following this whole BRT thing, trying to figure out how to make time to vote, talking to my wife about it and then I just had the realization that I live in GR Township. I can't vote on it even if I wanted to... I don't know why that never occurred to me until now. I guess I'll just sit back and see how it plays out. I wonder how many others followed this story in the press, etc. and didn't even notice that it wasn't on the ballot for them.

[Veloise]

...frankly we need to do something to drive investment in our cities. This is the first step in many steps in helping our cities. Say do you think 28th street could be widened enough to do what Cleveland did with their Health Line BRT in having two dedicated lanes in the center with a small median on each side to seperate it from the car traffic. I guess it would look like this,

building{sodEmoji.|}_sidewalk_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_2 traffic lanes_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_2 BRT Lanes_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_2 traffic lanes_{sodEmoji.|}_grass_{sodEmoji.|}_sidewalk_{sodEmoji.|}building

Not sure that 28th St needs this sort of help, being a shopping district with car-fix joints and drive-thru service windows. And "no one" lives in Cascade/Grandville and works in the other one.

[aowwt]

I know there is apartments on 28th street on the east side and trust me there is apartments on the west side. On top of that there is a ton of houses right behind 28th street in wyoming and kentwood areas along with the entire north side strip.

[GRDadof3]

Uhm DASH is not allowed. Remember we are talking about pure car travel versus hybrid of car and transit. I know I could get a DASH lot pretty easy enough but thats not the point. DASH is not used by everybody as they should.

The DASH system is used quite a bit actually. In fact, they're looking at expanding it South of Wealthy on Ionia.

If you're trying to sell the benefits of using the new BRT to someone living in Southern Kent County, you have to compare it to all other options available.

[Mark Miller]

I will preface what I am about to say with the following:

I believe in transit

I will be voting for this millage today

Transit is a key component for the future.

But we have to realize it is only a component and to think that if this doesn't pass that our cities will spiral into cataclysmic failure is just an alarmist reaction. We should not think that this alone is a magic bullet. Likewise, if the millage passes, we will still have issues to resolve at the urban scale, issues that this alone will not solve.

"He is an idiot and should get into local politics before shouting out his big &&& mouth about stuff he has no clue about. If this fails because of him I am going to get very angry at him. This is a do or die situation for our cities. We have a great philanthogists but they can not spend the amount of money that is required to make this happen. They may even turn away from our people and decide Cleveland or Orlando would be a better place to spend their wealth. I for one do want to see that happen. I feel this being our last hope to keep them interested in our city. We turned down a HUGE gift in the form of the zoo from F&L Meijer. We better not screw up this time."

In fact, I am not sure what all the fuss is about. This millage is hardly more than what we have now and it is just some buses and a few stations - it is not like we are going through a huge paradigm shift here!! What we really need to be addressing - if we really want systemic change- is light rail or rail. I know the argument....that light rail would cost a whole lot more than this and that BRT can someday lay the ground work for the light rail, but realistically it may never happen if you build this first.

Anyway we have come this far and it is time to get this thing built and see what happens. And maybe someday we will see light rail running in this corridor.

So get out and vote.

****************************************************

Another item regarding this. Someone mentioned 28th Street being widened to accomodate something like Cleveland did. 28th street does not have to be widened to accomodate this. It has plenty of ROW. Until transit is set up on that corridor and the corridor itself is made more humane, either as a boulevard or as something else, 28th street will ultimately never succeed in the future. As far as residential on 28th street - again that is probably the only way to make it someplace, by adding some hearty mixed-use. It will ultimately die otherwise.

****************************************************

Finally, all these opponents clamoring about taxes and subisidizing this transit need to realize how the auto and sprawl is subsidized and has been for over 50 years. Even with this minute expenditure, the road building military-industrial complex in this country (and in this state) will continue to build more roads and wider roads with no net benefit to our sustainability or our future. I point to M-6 and the College overpass as examples of subsidized waste with no net benefit. Where were these tax advocates on this?

[Raildudes dad]

The point of mass transit isnt to beat the car but to offer a competitive alternative to the car. OK, you barely beat the BRT in your scenario. On the other hand if you rode the BRT, youd hop on maybe read a book, not even have to think about parking or driving for that matter, hop off without getting mad at any drivers who cut you off, help the environment while you're at it, and assist in keeping oil prices low by lowering demand.

I understand mass transit, how it works and the benefits , but don't try to sell me on the BRT with this stand alone statement

I would love to see somebody try to drive from 60th and Division to the federal court house using 131 and see if they could beat the BRT at 7AM?

. That's all the point I was trying to make.

[aowwt]

Uhm M6 did have a net benifit that nobody saw. In the course of the several years that we have this freeway here is the commerical truck traffic counts that the state has tallied.

I-96 in 99 had 6000 to 4000 trucks per day

I-196 in 99 had about 5000 trucks per day

M-11 in 99 had about 2000 trucks per day

In 2007 the highways had these truck numbers

I-96 had 5000 to 3000 trucks per day

I-196 had 3000 to 5000 trucks per day

M-11 had around 1500 trucks per day

M-6 had around 5000 trucks per day

To get you an idea we had 5000 trucks come or go from Lansing on 96 to 2700 come or go from Muskegon, and 4800 to Holland. When you break it down, when those lines cross 131 we get an interesting picture, 5400 on M-6, 2000 on M-11, 4500 on I-196, and 3000 on I-96. M6 is taking a huge burden off the other interstates in the aspect of commerical truck traffic. Thats why we have a need for freeways. Its not to move people around but rather products we buy and sell. Also of note is US 131.

In 1999 by M-6 over 7300 trucks were on 131 per day and 4400 leaving Grand Rapids to Cadiliac in the Comstock Park Region. Bring it foward to 2007 we are looking at 5700 trucks on 131 coming into Grand Rapids south of M6 and only 4200 trucks going north by Comstock Park. Although that appears that M6 is peeling off traffic north of M6 is still the same number of trucks so I feel that M6 is taking traffic off the local roads more than anything else. That provides us more money locally wise for road repairs. Most traffic engineers consider one truck does the same amount of road damage as 1000 cars.

[Veloise]

The BRT schedule estimator says 29 minutes from 60th / Div to Michigan & Monroe. You can wait up to 15 minutes for the BRT. I'll bet you I can drive 131, park in a DASH lot and be in the courthouse in less than 36 minutes. 29 + 1/2 of 15 minutes (avg wait). Most days I bet I can equal the BRT time of 29 minutes. Now if we got rid of all those parking lots.......

But first you, RDD, would have to travel to Byron Center from your place in Walker...

Edited May 5, 2009 by Veloise

[Mark Miller]

Uhm M6 did have a net benifit that nobody saw. In the course of the several years that we have this freeway here is the commerical truck traffic counts that the state has tallied.

I-96 in 99 had 6000 to 4000 trucks per day

I-196 in 99 had about 5000 trucks per day

M-11 in 99 had about 2000 trucks per day

In 2007 the highways had these truck numbers

I-96 had 5000 to 3000 trucks per day

I-196 had 3000 to 5000 trucks per day

M-11 had around 1500 trucks per day

M-6 had around 5000 trucks per day

To get you an idea we had 5000 trucks come or go from Lansing on 96 to 2700 come or go from Muskegon, and 4800 to Holland. When you break it down, when those lines cross 131 we get an interesting picture, 5400 on M-6, 2000 on M-11, 4500 on I-196, and 3000 on I-96. M6 is taking a huge burden off the other interstates in the aspect of commerical truck traffic. Thats why we have a need for freeways. Its not to move people around but rather products we buy and sell. Also of note is US 131.

In 1999 by M-6 over 7300 trucks were on 131 per day and 4400 leaving Grand Rapids to Cadiliac in the Comstock Park Region. Bring it foward to 2007 we are looking at 5700 trucks on 131 coming into Grand Rapids south of M6 and only 4200 trucks going north by Comstock Park. Although that appears that M6 is peeling off traffic north of M6 is still the same number of trucks so I feel that M6 is taking traffic off the local roads more than anything else. That provides us more money locally wise for road repairs. Most traffic engineers consider one truck does the same amount of road damage as 1000 cars.

So the argrument for freeways is to move goods? And the benefit of M-6 has been to take trucks moving these goods further out...off the other pre-existing highways? Then why do we need the other highways that rip through the city? Why are we spending millions on a new overpass on a highway we don't need?

How many automobiles with single riders are driving on M6 daily and how many VMTs are they driving per day? per year? How much sprawl was built on the interchanges of M6 in an autocentric environment? How long will M6 be viable, before these punks at MDOT have their hands in the public trough looking for more money to subsidize repair or rebuild? 20 years? How long before all the expenditure on roads, tract homes and strip centers within this corridor is realized to be a lost investment and written off?

The only sustainable method to move goods will be rail and via waterways. We can not continue to transport goods 3000 miles in semi-trucks - it is not sustainable. And certainly building more roads to carry these goods is a huge misinvestment, which we are saddling future generations with. We should divert funds from road building and rebuild our rail above third world standards - both passenger and freight. We should disband DOT's and reconstitute them as real (multi transportation) entities, which care about something other than car and truck traffic.

As we debate this and as people debate whether we should spend an insultingly low amount of money on a small corridor of transit along Divsion Avenue we progress further down a path of unsustainable patterns that will ultimately fail.

This is too little of an investment.......and one can hope that it is not too late. The real debate here is why we are not asking for more money - not through a millage, but through MDOT in order to build more transit. More BRT, more light rail, more street cars - in other words more sustainable transportation options.

[GRDadof3]

Uhm M6 did have a net benifit that nobody saw. In the course of the several years that we have this freeway here is the commerical truck traffic counts that the state has tallied.

I-96 in 99 had 6000 to 4000 trucks per day

I-196 in 99 had about 5000 trucks per day

M-11 in 99 had about 2000 trucks per day

In 2007 the highways had these truck numbers

I-96 had 5000 to 3000 trucks per day

I-196 had 3000 to 5000 trucks per day

M-11 had around 1500 trucks per day

M-6 had around 5000 trucks per day

To get you an idea we had 5000 trucks come or go from Lansing on 96 to 2700 come or go from Muskegon, and 4800 to Holland. When you break it down, when those lines cross 131 we get an interesting picture, 5400 on M-6, 2000 on M-11, 4500 on I-196, and 3000 on I-96. M6 is taking a huge burden off the other interstates in the aspect of commerical truck traffic. Thats why we have a need for freeways. Its not to move people around but rather products we buy and sell. Also of note is US 131.

In 1999 by M-6 over 7300 trucks were on 131 per day and 4400 leaving Grand Rapids to Cadiliac in the Comstock Park Region. Bring it foward to 2007 we are looking at 5700 trucks on 131 coming into Grand Rapids south of M6 and only 4200 trucks going north by Comstock Park. Although that appears that M6 is peeling off traffic north of M6 is still the same number of trucks so I feel that M6 is taking traffic off the local roads more than anything else. That provides us more money locally wise for road repairs. Most traffic engineers consider one truck does the same amount of road damage as 1000 cars.

Yeah, be careful on that argument aowwt. Then the logical conclusion is to have 1 highway for every 1 truck traveling on it. The answer is to have fewer highways, in better condition, with more traffic on them (congestion). It's much cheaper to maintain (in a state with dwindling tax revenue), and it forces people to look at alternatives (rail, bus, bike).

I'm with GRTP on the rail issue. In fact, I would argue that the Division corridor is not a good street for light rail. Take it less than a block West and there's already a rail corridor that could accomplish the same task, more efficiently, faster and more safely, with plenty of redevelopment opportunities. Charlotte did that, instead of running it up the main corridor through the Southern end of the city. End result = they've already come close to hitting their 2025 goal of 18,100 weekday average ridership, hitting 16,900 last Fall.

[aowwt]

Actually I think our highway system in Grand Rapids metro area is fairly well setup. I think the US 31 in Ottawa County is all that is required. After that there is no more need for Freeways in Grand Rapids in a long time. The rest of our money should be spent on upkeep and expansion of public transit. The use of 3 lanes in the center of the city ie 131 and 196 is good, the use of 2 lanes on the outside 96, 31, and M6 is perfect. M11 needs to converted and removed from the state IMHO.

[GR_Urbanist]

As we debate this and as people debate whether we should spend an insultingly low amount of money on a small corridor of transit along Divsion Avenue we progress further down a path of unsustainable patterns that will ultimately fail.

This is too little of an investment.......and one can hope that it is not too late. The real debate here is why we are not asking for more money - not through a millage, but through MDOT in order to build more transit. More BRT, more light rail, more street cars - in other words more sustainable transportation options.

It's not insultingly low for those that have to pay it through higher taxes.

I think the problem is that too many of those supporting this dont see this as real money, or remotely fathom how little of what they promise has any real chance of coming about. It seems like it's all about getting the win or to see how many different mass-transit toys we can shove into this area, just for the sake of being able to brag to people in SF or Chicago that we have those "cool" things too. Oh please love us!!!!

Who cares if the existing buses never seem, other than the #50, to run at capacity. Who cares that most of the cities that have things like BRT and Light Rail, and others have populations of over a million people. It just feels good to say my city has a BRT.

What "investment" are we making here? From what I read the fairy tale is that all along S. Division are developers with hundreds of millions of dollars of projects that hinged just on this bus that doesn't have to stop for many traffic lights. Factories will magically spring to life, not because the world economy has mysteriously rebounded, but because we have a BRT running by them. Thousands of people will almost overnight start to swamp S. Division's new shops and stores, never once having to open the door of their own car, all because we have a BRT!

We have buses that run this route that are never full. Dont you think that if anyone was going to build anything based on a bus, they would have done so by now? What idiot developer builds in a suburban area based on the mass transit? None.

I just watched video after video of cities with BRT systems. I loved every one of them. But I loved them because they were built to serve a pressing need in cities that are huge and congested most of the day. They tied a cart to a horse. This BRT is serving an area with a nano-fraction of their populations in an area who's shops are frequented by a fraction of people. Horse meet the back of the cart...

But again it's an "investment", which is the favorite word for public institutions that have their hand out for more cash. But if you dont think the money is real or are the people the people that pay it, then go for it. It's all mils and monopoly money and a shiny new mass-transit toy promising a fantasy.

The ITP is getting free cash from D.C. and Q.Taxpayer for this. If I was them I would be happy too.

Edited May 5, 2009 by GR_Urbanist

[Veloise]

And "no one" lives in Cascade/Grandville and works in the other one.

I know there is apartments on 28th street on the east side and trust me there is apartments on the west side. On top of that there is a ton of houses right behind 28th street in wyoming and kentwood areas along with the entire north side strip.

Yes, there are people living along the 28th Street corridor. My point is: it's not a good choice for a commuter line.

[GRDadof3]

It's not insultingly low for those that have to pay it through higher taxes.

I think the problem is that too many of those supporting this dont see this as real money, or remotely fathom how little of what they promise has any real chance of coming about. It seems like it's all about getting the win or to see how many different mass-transit toys we can shove into this area, just for the sake of being able to brag to people in SF or Chicago that we have those "cool" things too. Oh please love us!!!!

Who cares if the existing buses we have never seem, other than the #50, to run at capacity. Who cares that most of the cities that have things like BRT and Light Rail, and others have populations of over a million people. It just feels good to say my city has a BRT.

What "investment" are we making here? From what I read the fairy tale is that all along S. Division are developers with hundreds of millions of dollars of projects that hinged just on this bus that doesn't have to stop for many traffic lights. Factories will magically spring to life, not because the world economy has mysteriously rebounded, but because we have a BRT running by them. Thousands of people will almost overnight start to swamp S. Division's new shops and stores, never once having to open the door of their own car, all because we have a BRT!

We have buses that run this route that are never full. Dont you think that if anyone was going to build anything based on a bus, they would have done so by now? What idiot developer builds in a suburban area based on the mass transit? None.

I just watched video after video of cities with BRT systems. I loved every one of them. But I loved them because they were built to serve a pressing need in cities that are huge and congested most of the day. They tied a cart to a horse. This BRT is serving an area with a nano-fraction of their populations in an area who's shops are frequented by a fraction of people. Horse meet the back of the cart...

But again it's an "investment", which is the favorite word for public institutions that have their hand out for more cash. But if you dont think the money is real or are the people the people that pay it, then go for it. It's all mils and monopoly money and a shiny new mass-transit toy promising a fantasy.

The ITP is getting free cash from D.C. and Q.Taxpayer for this. If I was them I would be happy too.

I think if the Silver Line doesn't pass, we should dust off the old TRIGGR2020 report and look at running rail up and down the 131 corridor.

[aowwt]

I think it would be a great place for the next BRT line. Granted the line I think it needs would be rather expensive but I think if the Silver Line is successful it would work. Linking the Airport to the Silver Line and Metro also with the Silver Line are two big items on that line along with the two largest Malls in the Grand Rapids Area. Those 4 items should help in getting funding. I do think that because of the amount of Commerical Truck Traffic it would required to have seperate lanes for the BRT line and not like Division. Plus the aspect that it would be needed to run every 10 minutes during the 7 to 7 hours IMHO with the early and late hours being every 20 minutes or so. There is a lot dead areas along 28th that could support this with new development plus the aspect that there is a lot of good areas that need support. The only sections I am considered about with this is Wilson corridor between GV Middle School and 44th st, the Patterson Section from 44th to 28th St, and some parts of the path from Rivertown Crossings to Metro. I do not think multiple stations would be required in those stretches with one being sufficant. Needless to say some parts could easily be served with no major road work needed but the 28th stretch would be required to have massive road work done in the aspect of adding two lanes for the busses in the center of the street. I do not think a street car system would work when you may need to change the path at times depending on what comes and what moves.

[aowwt]

Say I wonder what the cost would be for the 28th Street BRT line versus a Light Rail connecting Holland to Muskegon to Grand Rapids to Holland ie a big Light Rail Triangle. Oh GRdad you should have provided the link to the report, like THIS. It was a good read, took me all of 8 minutes to read and trust me it makes sense but I still think we need to start with this BRT first. The only other issue we have is that the state does not allow communites to levy a sales tax. Which sucks in the regard of the light rail proposal. I do think that we better off with a property tax in the long term since it would not move up and down with the economy.

[francishsu]

If the Silver Line millage doesn't pass, I don't see how a rail project which would require a larger millage increase would.

The loudest opponents seem to be using the recession as cover, plain and simple. If the economy was great, they'd still be against this same project. For $1/month, you should be arguing based on the merits of the project. Maybe you're against it because the route sucks, or that it doesn't make sense to eliminate a lane for car traffic on Division Ave. during rush hour. Maybe you don't think it's going to spur significant economic development. I've no problem with these arguments. But people who are saying we shouldn't fork out $1/month because times are tough are not votes I would count on when times are good.

[GR_Urbanist]

If the Silver Line millage doesn't pass, I don't see how a rail project which would require a larger millage increase would.

The loudest opponents seem to be using the recession as cover, plain and simple. If the economy was great, they'd still be against this same project. For $1/month, you should be arguing based on the merits of the project. Maybe you're against it because the route sucks, or that it doesn't make sense to eliminate a lane for car traffic on Division Ave. during rush hour. Maybe you don't think it's going to spur significant economic development. I've no problem with these arguments. But people who are saying we shouldn't fork out $1/month because times are tough are not votes I would count on when times are good.

So? People are using the recession as "cover" to not buy big screen TVs or big houses or new cars either. Most of us refer to it as a "good reason".

This whole 1$ a month is ADDED onto all the other X$ a month millages that we were told wouldn't amount to much.

Now what are the costs TOTAL for property owners for all of these minuscule proposals? Find that out, and then you will see a big reason why this has opposition.

And yes if times were good, THIS still is a waste of money and resources, because they haven't showed a real immediate reason for this other than they really want it and that D.C. is tossing money at them to do something.

If they came up with a sensible plan, that addressed a real need, and sold it on real tangible benefits...and not use D.C. dollars, I would support it.

Edited May 5, 2009 by GR_Urbanist

[francishsu]

This whole 1$ a month is ADDED onto all the other X$ a month millages that we were told wouldn't amount to much.

The difference with this one is that the federal and state gov is chipping in a combined $40 million against the $3.3 million raised by the millage increase. For a local resident, that's extra money you won't see in other typical millage increases. If it's voted down, that federal and state taxpayer money's going to go to some other project that will have no impact on the people voting on this millage increase.

[Veloise]

Trying to think of what sort of discretionary item costs me the meager price of $1/month.

I guess I might get a designer cup of coffee maybe three times a year....