Has anybody seen this?

[LA_TN]

First of all, I thought the people of Louisville would make this a go. But after talking w/ some friends there, they indicated to me that they did not like it, and the majority of their friends/family/co-workers didn't like it or had reservations. Although I don't like the design 100%, I think it is a good step for Louisville - bold and daring. If you had read my earlier posts, I wouldn't be repeating my support now.

But my point is that new buildings are built all the time. I think it would be dumb to copy 30 St. Mary Axe, but design a building that is bold and daring with broader public acceptance. The concept of a plaza 22 floors up is unique and IMO the strongest aspect of this building. But after seeing/hearing so many reactions to the design, I'm now led to believe it could be too risky. Call me conservative if you like; but although I'd like to see Louisville step out on a limb, I want some assurance it doesn't break for Louisville's sake!

[Nashvillain]

Here's the deal. The MP design is causing quite a stir. Here is an example of 41 story building completed in 2004 called 30 St. Mary Axe. This is a very simple, cool looking modern building that would be a GREAT benefit to ANY city's skyline. And that's the point - why risk MP when this could be had:

http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/30_St_Mary_Axe.html

Yikes, I'll take the MP over that glorified easter egg, giant bullet, phallus thing.

[Nashvillain]

That thing looks like a rocket ship as described by Jules Verne circa 1890. "Journey to Venus in a Giant Goose Egg and Other Young Boys Tales from Ye Ol' Blighty."

[LA_TN]

See, that's what I like about everyone. There's no design out there that everyone is 100% on (except, well, maybe, McDonald's). I get the feeling that there is a mixture of people in Louisville (as would be expected) that would like a little less bold and daring; but cater to them and then others are not as happy - can't win for losing! So build this thing and I'll be there early on to visit. I hope it gets broader acceptance.

[ppassafi]

See, that's what I like about everyone. There's no design out there that everyone is 100% on (except, well, maybe, McDonald's). I get the feeling that there is a mixture of people in Louisville (as would be expected) that would like a little less bold and daring; but cater to them and then others are not as happy - can't win for losing! So build this thing and I'll be there early on to visit. I hope it gets broader acceptance.

Broader acceptance? You are from TN man. I live here and I know what people think. The response to MP is almost everyone loves it. I'd say well over 70%. What I have found is either you hate this or love it. I think that 30% locally that hates it REALLY hates it too. But in general, I think more people locally like this design than people in surrounding cities based on what I have seen on these boards.

[Vertigo]

Consider one of the main functions of this building:

A CONTEMPORARY art museum

When was the last time contemporary art tried to appease the masses or play it safe? One of the main goals of contemporary art is to force people to view the world in a way that they normally would not. It usually doesn't set out to portray beauty in a traditional sense. That's why you usually get the 'my two year old could do that!' response from those that are uneducated in this type of art. That doesn't mean they are stupid, they just aren't aware of it.

You could poll 100 people on the street and most of them would prefer hip hop or country over opera but that doesn't diminish the importance of opera. Most importantly, it doesn't mean people shouldn't be exposed to opera just because they say they don't like it. The truth is that most people don't know enough about it to form an opinion so the typical response is something along the lines of 'it sucks'. How intelligent, and it reflects a lot of the conversation regarding Museum Plaza. I don't expect everyone to like it but I'm frustrated by the lack of appreciation for the ambition and creativity this project has to offer. Personally, I don't find all modern art attractive but I still appreciate and respect the artist for trying. There is beauty in that.

The greatest (and most controversial) work of art this museum will ever possess will be the building itself. How often does a building have the opportunity to reflect it's intended purpose at the same level as this one? That's one of the most important goals an architect has when designing a new project and this one literally SOARS to new heights.

[LA_TN]

Vertigo - exactly! I'm not a person that can appreciate art very well, but the whole concept behind it is to engage your mind through a visual presentation. MP will start your mind before you even get to the museum.

ppassafi - Yes, I live in Nashville (3 years), but I'm from Ky. I can tell you how many tables are in the tap room at Phoenix Hill and I practically lived in Louisville for about 5-6 years. Trust me, I know Louisville well enough to get most people lost.

I'm not getting accross my point very well, so I'll try again. I think the building is a go. If I could change a few things about it, I would - and most people will make different choices on anything (some like red, some like blue...). The concerns I have is a) street level and b) what will you see when you look up from underneath. There is a bldg w/ an overhang in Nashville and I like the bldg, but not the overhang - something should've been done to 'dress it up' underneath. The diagonal elevator is a cool concept, but there are people in this world that are scared of heights - not a good option for them.

I have talked directly to 14 friends that all live in Louisville (minus one is in Mt. Washington and one in Todd's Point) and only 2 have indicated that they love MP and think it's cool. So sorry about this, but this is still a very small sampling of people. I'm not there, but I know what I hear. The feeling I get is that the people that do hate it, hate it stongly. That's my concern. Ageon is marvelous and stately, but I'll never like the pink bldg - my personal choice. I'm concerned about the acceptance of this bldg - that's my point.

Interestingly, most of the people I talked with stated they were not happy with the $75 million bill going to city/state on this. Some said put the money into the arena because more people will use it more than MP. That opens a whole new debate, because there will obviously be a steady flow for the museum. I guess some people like b-ball more than art! But when you pay taxes, you get picky about where that money gets spent.

[soulbrotha]

from velocity weeekly

[ppassafi]

Vertigo - exactly! I'm not a person that can appreciate art very well, but the whole concept behind it is to engage your mind through a visual presentation. MP will start your mind before you even get to the museum.

ppassafi - Yes, I live in Nashville (3 years), but I'm from Ky. I can tell you how many tables are in the tap room at Phoenix Hill and I practically lived in Louisville for about 5-6 years. Trust me, I know Louisville well enough to get most people lost.

I'm not getting accross my point very well, so I'll try again. I think the building is a go. If I could change a few things about it, I would - and most people will make different choices on anything (some like red, some like blue...). The concerns I have is a) street level and b) what will you see when you look up from underneath. There is a bldg w/ an overhang in Nashville and I like the bldg, but not the overhang - something should've been done to 'dress it up' underneath. The diagonal elevator is a cool concept, but there are people in this world that are scared of heights - not a good option for them.

I have talked directly to 14 friends that all live in Louisville (minus one is in Mt. Washington and one in Todd's Point) and only 2 have indicated that they love MP and think it's cool. So sorry about this, but this is still a very small sampling of people. I'm not there, but I know what I hear. The feeling I get is that the people that do hate it, hate it stongly. That's my concern. Ageon is marvelous and stately, but I'll never like the pink bldg - my personal choice. I'm concerned about the acceptance of this bldg - that's my point.

Interestingly, most of the people I talked with stated they were not happy with the $75 million bill going to city/state on this. Some said put the money into the arena because more people will use it more than MP. That opens a whole new debate, because there will obviously be a steady flow for the museum. I guess some people like b-ball more than art! But when you pay taxes, you get picky about where that money gets spent.

Interesting perspective, but the only empirical evidence we have is that poll from Velocity--which proves my point that most here think it is cool.

Anyways, I am not sure what $75 million you are talking about. REGARDLESS of whether this MP project gets built, the city must eventually upgrade its flood protection and it already has a plan in place to extend river road. So that money will be spent regardless...they are just going to tie the construction in with MP.

As for the arena, the Jefferson Co. legislators are trying to kill it--we have yet to find out why, but this spring should be comical. Judging by their comments, I would not expect an arena anytime soon. But since MP is being funded by private developers with deep pockets, it will get built. They have invested in several other projects and they have come to fruition like they said--for example the 21C luxury hotel, which will open next month.

[LA_TN]

As for the Velocity poll, the people I've talked with are older than the average people that would be using the Velocity site. So that should explain that difference. I'm sure that if you polled the senior citizens sector, they would have different results.

I really don't know the details about the money for the floodwall; but have heard, like you said, that it is going to be spent regardless. As for the arena, I have no idea what will happen there. Like you said, it seems as though the city leaders are not really for it. Pitino stated it would not happen. I would be curious to know more on this. If someone knows more, please reply on the Arena thread.

[soulbrotha]

ummm velocity is a free paper. its all over the city, people of all ages read it.

[ppassafi]

As for the Velocity poll, the people I've talked with are older than the average people that would be using the Velocity site. So that should explain that difference. I'm sure that if you polled the senior citizens sector, they would have different results.

I really don't know the details about the money for the floodwall; but have heard, like you said, that it is going to be spent regardless. As for the arena, I have no idea what will happen there. Like you said, it seems as though the city leaders are not really for it. Pitino stated it would not happen. I would be curious to know more on this. If someone knows more, please reply on the Arena thread.

There is going to be an announcement on Friday about a privately funded study for the arena...its a debacle.

Also, Velocity is a free weekly. It caters to a younger crowd, but I think the average reader is close to 40. Maybe you can look that up. I do know the average age in Louisville is 38 so that may make sense.

For MP, that 75 milliion would be spent anyways, and the developer IS NOT asking for 75 million directly. He is only asking for 75 million in tax REBATES from taxes collected from his project and the area around it. I think that is more than reasonable considering that without this project, that area would never be able to create the kind of tax revenue as it will with a 61 story monster.

[Plasticman]

I think this is a case where market forces could have helped take the edge (which one) off the project and end up with a more fitting building. From what I take away this project is being financed mainly as an art experiment from those with deep pockets. I say more power to them and their pet project but when you do not have to answer to a bank the results tend to reach for the extremes. They end up either exceptional or ostentatious...time will tell.

Exactly! The project is ugly as it can be. Totally absurd looking as if it were being designed soley to have everyone say "Looky at me..looky at me...See? See?....Loiuisville is a major player too". Louisville already was and is and doesn't need an eyesore like that to project themselves. I think a design more like Hearst Tower in Charlotte would fit in better.

With Nashville, the original design of Signature was too old fashioned so they re-designed it perfectly. Let's hope these Museum Plaza designers come off whatever drug they are on and do the same.

from velocity weeekly

And I would bet the ones voting "It's cool" are just voting that way because they are afraid voting otherwise would somehow influence just dismissing the whole project and to most urbanites, any project is better than none, even if it's ugly.

[soulbrotha]

yeah we all fear the anti-museum plaza gestapo.

[Plasticman]

yeah we all fear the anti-museum plaza gestapo.

C'mon. You mean you actually like the design? Are you saying that if it were up to you to choose a design and somebody showed you a book full of thousands of design pictures, you would purposefully choose that thing?

[soulbrotha]

C'mon. You mean you actually like the design? Are you saying that if it were up to you to choose a design and somebody showed you a book full of thousands of design pictures, you would purposefully choose that thing?

hell yes, because if my motive was to build a multi purpose skyscraper, i knew before hand i wasn't going to be able to do that with the more traditional skyscrapers people like you are used too..need i remind you that this will probably be the only skyscraper in the SE, if not in the u.s., that has a hotel, lofts, condos, retail, comercial space, a public park, and museum?

[Plasticman]

hell yes, because if my motive was to build a multi purpose skyscraper, i knew before hand i wasn't going to be able to do that with the more traditional skyscrapers people like you are used too..need i remind you that this will probably be the only skyscraper in the SE, if not in the u.s., that has a hotel, lofts, condos, retail, comercial space, a public park, and museum?

Ok, then...knock yourself out.

[soulbrotha]

i wonder why none of the nay sayers seem to have nothing bad to say about the features this building will have.

[ppassafi]

i wonder why none of the nay sayers seem to have nothing bad to say about the features this building will have.

I agree, Soul. I will be there with you for the groundbreaking man

[soulbrotha]

What do architects think?

By Diane Heilenman

[email protected]

The Courier-Journal

David Mohney, 52, dean, University of Kentucky College of Design, Lexington: "Museum Plaza... doesn't look like it has much to do with the context at first, but it does. For example, the base opens up carefully to provide views of the new Ali Center; the mass is broken down by the three-tower strategy so it doesn't dominate the skyline. My wife, (Manhattan) architect Joan Chan, noted that in the view from across the river, Museum Plaza actually makes the other tall buildings look better, and I agree."

Liz Swanson, 33, assistant professor of architecture, UK: "To me, it's not as unfamiliar as many people characterize it. Driving into Chicago one catches similar formal and cinematic glimpses: the rectilinear, trussed, hovering box of Union Station; the underside of the old Post Office; the shifting volumes of the Sears Tower. I love the inclusion of an elevated public space

[Vertigo]

Interesting quotes.

This is a quote EVERYONE should read...

Mike McKay, 32, lecturer in architecture, UK: "....... There is no question that this is a significant architectural project, but its uniqueness is not due solely to design

[The Real]

Great post, Vertigo.

I have just noticed something I found interesting and wanted to share.

If one does a Google search for "signature tower" and "nashville," he would find 650 hits. If one does the same for "museum plaza" and "louisville". . .57,400 hits. I'm no techie, so I don't know exactly what the disparity represents, but one would believe the excitement / disgust / what-have-you surrounding the MP compared to the ST has something to do with it. ST, run-of-the-mill. MP, freakazoid. I take the latter and all of the good and the bad that comes with it.

To me, all of this represents the difference in the tale of the two cities. Nashville has embraced growth (and good for it for doing so) but has sold some of its soul in doing so. Honky Tonk Badonkadonk, I'm sure, has sold more copies than anything Johnny Cash ever did. Long live TMIB, but he must be getting dizzy in his grave. The modern NFL is just NASCAR Lite. The Grand Ole Opry moved to a shopping mall in the 'burbs. Louisville, on the other hand, bumbles along, every once in a while stumbling upon a diamond in the rough (e.g., Waterfront Park, merger, MP) in spite of itself. Getting drunk on a summer Friday night in Nashville? Most likely, you're on Lower Broad fighting off the tourists from Alabama in their Rebel Flag Big Johnson T's. Getting drunk on a summer Friday night in Louisville? Most likely, you're with your neighbors losing money on Showdown at a Catholic fish fry.

I've lived both places and each could learn from the other. I think growth, for the most part, is good, and Nashville is on its way to becoming a major 21st century population base. But IMO Nashville will never again have what Louisville preserves and that is a deep (almost pathological) reverence of the relationship between one's history and future. Louisville has never been a typical southern / midwestern city, and if it has to become one for future growth, I'll pass.

[Lexy]

Well, with all due respect Vertigo, I think you are wrong on everything you typed about Sig. Tower. Namely, there are some things being "fixed" about it that I will not go into. When you see it next time, you WILL do a double take. But anyways.......to each his own I suppose.

I swear, some of you Louisvillians live in a bubble up there. You need to get out more. Rebel Flags and all that is hardly ever seen on a person in downtown. Whether it's the dead of winter or the dog days of summer. *shakes head indisbelief of all the stupidity on here*

[Lexy]

Let me just say this.

When you start saying that Louisville does this and Nashville doesn't and never will, that gets people going. And last time I checked, there are a considerable amount of Nashville posters on here that would be offended by such uneducated and unfounded claims.

This discussion is starting to get a bit closer to a "versus" type thread. So maybe a change of words or phrases is in order. Perhaps a bit of discretion should be used in the near future when replying. I will at least do just that.

[Rural King]

I don't understand this tick for tack between Nashville and Louisville and their two high profile towers. This is mainly about Museum Plaza, like it or hate it or whatever. Some comparision between cities and towers is fine, but folks when we start comparing who and what is found in either downtown on Saturday night we are getting a tad bit off track and onto tertiary subject matter that can only lead to folks getting upset IMO.

So lets stick to a discussion of MP and/or valid discussions about it compared to other projects underway in the region/nation currently.

Thanks.