SBD Partners "Mystery" Condo Tower

[urbanesq]

interesting news. hope the plans get fleshed out in the coming weeks-- would love to see those $200K renderings. Any of you architect types have any leads on those?

If they go to 24 stories in that spot, plus 29 for RBC across the street, and who knows how tall for the Progress across from that, there will be an impressive mass of bulk and height, smack in the middle of downtown. How excellent would that be, from a skyline point of view, but more importantly from a development density standpoint? I say bring it on!

[Jones_]

Jesus....5 million asking price for a half acre!!! He only paid what 675k for the building, toss in the adjacent properties and somehow this lot is now worth 5 million dollars? (translates to 10 MILLION an acre!!) If he gets this price it is doomsday for the middle class that may want to live downtown. This is why I go on and on and on about why you DO NOT want skyscrapers in a city that is still litttered with surface parking lots. One of two things will now happen...either this little brick building will remain underutilized as the owner waits for the right price (I see its a reception hall of some sort...should still be a grocery store) or it will be another tower with 1000 squarefoot condos priced at 300k (or more) dollars....is either situation good? I think not at all. What is the driving force here?....clearly RBC putting up a tower and paying handsomely for the land. Skyline skyline skyline.....what about a downtown where people making 50k bucks a year can afford to live? Downtown went straight from pioneers living on the edges of the warehouse district, Glenwood, and Boylan Heights, to unaffordable for all but a slim segment of the population......the ten year window of cheaper places like 610 Hillsborough, and those nice introductory prices originally at the Cotton Mill(1996) and Park Deveraux(2000) is basicly over.

[pack-man]

......the ten year window of cheaper places like 610 Hillsborough, and those nice introductory prices originally at the Cotton Mill(1996) and Park Deveraux(2000) is basicly over.

I agree. Even though it is nice to see all this development downtown with nice condos and everything, is it really affordable? I don't think so. I am wondering how these developers think they will sell these units for a price to come out on top (ie. The Hudson)

As for the project, it was presented a year ago. The reason it will cost so much is it will also be built over a portion of the Moore Square Parking deck. The air rights were expensive and this type of building costs mucho money. It was a nice looking building at around 25 stories. I haven't heard anything new about until now. We'll see if they go forward with it.

[urbanesq]

Jesus....5 million asking price for a half acre!!! He only paid what 675k for the building, toss in the adjacent properties and somehow this lot is now worth 5 million dollars? (translates to 10 MILLION an acre!!) If he gets this price it is doomsday for the middle class that may want to live downtown. This is why I go on and on and on about why you DO NOT want skyscrapers in a city that is still litttered with surface parking lots. One of two things will now happen...either this little brick building will remain underutilized as the owner waits for the right price (I see its a reception hall of some sort...should still be a grocery store) or it will be another tower with 1000 squarefoot condos priced at 300k (or more) dollars....is either situation good? I think not at all. What is the driving force here?....clearly RBC putting up a tower and paying handsomely for the land. Skyline skyline skyline.....what about a downtown where people making 50k bucks a year can afford to live? Downtown went straight from pioneers living on the edges of the warehouse district, Glenwood, and Boylan Heights, to unaffordable for all but a slim segment of the population......the ten year window of cheaper places like 610 Hillsborough, and those nice introductory prices originally at the Cotton Mill(1996) and Park Deveraux(2000) is basicly over.

I'm not so sure. I mean, I agree with you about the end of the pioneering period, no question, But maybe that's an ok thing? Don't you think that maybe if people keep building up, though, that the land value can be better amortized over more units, therefore making them more affordable? I know there are added costs to going vertical, but it seems to me that the market will bring prices into line if everyone builds taller. I could be wrong, of course......

[Jones_]

I'm not so sure. I mean, I agree with you about the end of the pioneering period, no question, But maybe that's an ok thing? Don't you think that maybe if people keep building up, though, that the land value can be better amortized over more units, therefore making them more affordable? I know there are added costs to going vertical, but it seems to me that the market will bring prices into line if everyone builds taller. I could be wrong, of course......

I hear you, and I actually think thats an ok lot to go vertical on, it was the asking price for the land....I am not sure how the Moore Square parking deck figured into it though...he may have had to pay for air rights as part of the assemblage...

Land value does get spread out over the increased number of units but nowadays the price of concrete and steel needed to go vertical has become a much larger factor in teh overall price.

[ChiefJoJo]

I agree with Jones on this. DT Raleigh (the core) is in no shape to be abandoning the gen X & Y middle/ creative class working man/woman (someone who can only afford a $150-200k condo) at this point. If DT Raleigh is to fulfill it's potential, we need to have these folks living, working, and playing in DT to create what we want, a lively, vibrant DT scene. I think particularly, there seems to be a desire for Raleigh to be a haven to the growing arts scene, a la CAMA, Art Space, etc. I really hope that these people aren't priced out completely, and that there are upcoming projects that fulfill the needs of these individuals who want to move here and have an urban lifestyle.

[urbanesq]

I agree with Jones on this. DT Raleigh (the core) is in no shape to be abandoning the gen X & Y middle/ creative class working man/woman (someone who can only afford a $150-200k condo) at this point. If DT Raleigh is to fulfill it's potential, we need to have these folks living, working, and playing in DT to create what we want, a lively, vibrant DT scene. I think particularly, there seems to be a desire for Raleigh to be a haven to the growing arts scene, a la CAMA, Art Space, etc. I really hope that these people aren't priced out completely, and that there are upcoming projects that fulfill the needs of these individuals who want to move here and have an urban lifestyle.

I completely agree with you on all counts re: affordability, creative class, Gen X & Yers, etc. Only I'm not convinced that building up won't increase the market's ability to provide diversity in downtown housing product. Other than that I think we're on the same page.

[Transplant]

Hopefully, the price of property DT will allow for some moderate 5-8 story structures to fill in around the high rises on Fayetteville Street. I think the Warehouse Area would/could have a unique feel with some smaller buildings with a mix of housing/office/retail/entertainment.

[Jones_]

I completely agree with you on all counts re: affordability, creative class, Gen X & Yers, etc. Only I'm not convinced that building up won't increase the market's ability to provide diversity in downtown housing product. Other than that I think we're on the same page.

To date no developer has made an attempt to provide that though...the proposed lower rise Raleigh Office Supply site has come closest recently. The cheapest condos to come online since 2000 are all stick built structures...Person Pointe, Governors Square and I think 610 Hillsborough. My balk though is still with the 10 million an acre asking price for the land in the article that is the topic of this thread.

[urbanesq]

Hopefully, the price of property DT will allow for some moderate 5-8 story structures to fill in around the high rises on Fayetteville Street. I think the Warehouse Area would/could have a unique feel with some smaller buildings with a mix of housing/office/retail/entertainment.

I don't disagree, but I also think this area would be a prime candidate for some really dense, very tall mixed use buildings around the rail stop. I really like the gritty urban feel it has now, but I would be willing to see it transform into something totally different if it would mean lots of riders on the (no-it's-not-dead-yet) TTA regional rail system.

[avery]

I don't disagree, but I also think this area would be a prime candidate for some really dense, very tall mixed use buildings around the rail stop. I really like the gritty urban feel it has now, but I would be willing to see it transform into something totally different if it would mean lots of riders on the (no-it's-not-dead-yet) TTA regional rail system.

I was strolling through the warehouse district on Saturday with my wife and the area does have huge potential. It was disappointing to see how quiet it was during the day. More daytime activity is needed downtown. I also checked out The Depot. It is a very cool development and hope some good tenants move in.

[ChiefJoJo]

Since someone asked about this area, I'll bump this topic with the rendering from RaleighMSA:

[ChiefJoJo]

Bumping the mystery tower topic since it has an article on the first page...

SDB hatched a plan in 2004 to build a 15- to 24-story tower with condominiums, offices and shops there. But acquiring attached properties has been difficult. The group, which spent about $200,000 on renderings and designs, has turned to marketing the building, along with the plans.

It would be over the Wilmington St access of the Moore Square deck near Martin St, and at the opposing corner from RBC Plaza.

[JTsaysToYou]

Hmmmmm, I want specs, but I guess that those are a long way off. Meh.

Oh well, I can wait. As for the whole affordability thing, Downtown will be expensive for the next 5-10 years, then the middle -class stuff will fill in. Patience is a virtue.

[ChiefJoJo]

No more new info on this proposal...

but I'd say so long as they just build over the Moore Square parking deck access using air rights (the city would profit) and hopefully don't take down any of those other buildings along Wilmington St (Slims, etc), then this is a good spot for a new tower IMO--diagonally across from the new RBC Plaza.

[Transplant]

No more new info on this proposal...

but I'd say so long as they just build over the Moore Square parking deck access using air rights (the city would profit) and hopefully don't take down any of those other buildings along Wilmington St (Slims, etc), then this is a good spot for a new tower IMO--diagonally across from the new RBC Plaza.

As far as building over the Moore Square parking deck: I'm no civil engineer, but wouldn't building over the parking deck require the deck to have been built to allow for the additional loading? Has the deck been built with this in mind?

[ChiefJoJo]

The area in question is not over the main parking deck itself, just over the ramp access to Wilmington St. If you look at the rendering above, there is a big hole or entrance at the bottom floor in the middle where it would be built across that access point. The city would obviously have to sell the air rights above the ramp to a developer and probably give up a few parking spaces as well.

[JTsaysToYou]

I hate it when people announce a building possibiltiy, put out a vague rendering, and leave it for a year, just so all us people obsessed with DT can cross our fingers and wait. GRRR

[ChiefJoJo]

Here is a decent pic of the proposed site for this... the bldg on the right (sand shop I think) would go away and the tower would be built over the "Moore Square Station" entrance.

[carynative]

I think that's an excellent spot for a high rise. Also, a block north, the entrance for the Capitol Square Deck might make for a good footprint. That deck has an odd tower/walkway connection that isn't really necessary that could go away and give a solid footprint for a new tower or mid-rise. There are several of these "fill-in" holes throughout downtown that would be great places for projects.

[Jones_]

Here is a decent pic of the proposed site for this... the bldg on the right (sand shop I think) would go away and the tower would be built over the "Moore Square Station" entrance.

[ncwebguy]

I think that if condos were built above the deck entrance, to the corner, and back through the old printing shop, along with RBC, Site 1, etc. a grocery store/coffee shop/deli could work well here.

Captial City Grocery could *easily* do this, using the Seaboard store's storage to supply a "super mini-mart". Jimmy's City Market lasted quite a while with having little to no nearby residential, other than the Sir Walter. They redid the floors and a hamburger grill near the end, but was not that good and too little too late.

Office workers could get lunch/coffee/etc. there and residents could get heat and eat meals, some basic food stuffs, etc. -- a true infill project, in every sense.

[Jones_]

I think that if condos were built above the deck entrance, to the corner, and back through the old printing shop, along with RBC, Site 1, etc. a grocery store/coffee shop/deli could work well here.

Captial City Grocery could *easily* do this, using the Seaboard store's storage to supply a "super mini-mart". Jimmy's City Market lasted quite a while with having little to no nearby residential, other than the Sir Walter. They redid the floors and a hamburger grill near the end, but was not that good and too little too late.

Office workers could get lunch/coffee/etc. there and residents could get heat and eat meals, some basic food stuffs, etc. -- a true infill project, in every sense.

[carynative]

That would work. I can really see it. Great Idea. I don't live downtown, but work here. I know there are days that I need to pick up one or two items from the store on my way home and dread stopping at the grocery store in the "suburban jungle." I'd be more than willing to pop in a store such as that at lunch and just take the items back with me to my office.

[JTsaysToYou]

If there was a downtown grocery store there, that'd be amazing, seaboard is GREAT but, its still a little farther than a quick walk from the central business district. i love the idea.