Differences in Raleigh and Charlotte

[monsoon]

just another note in regards to this. you mentioned IBM, you might want to check up on the latest layoff/offshoring numbers coming out of IBM.

You might also want to look at BofA's subsidary in India and what is moving there. IBM is a much much larger company than BofA.

[DanRNC]

Actually IBM will be expanding its operations in RTP with its wireless division being built up. As far as other software companies in the area-Cisco is expanding, NetApp is expanding, Lenovo is expanding, SAS is always expanding.

[monsoon]

From an employee perspective, SAS is probably one of the best places in NC to work.

[A2]

You might also want to look at BofA's subsidary in India and what is moving there. IBM is a much much larger company than BofA.

Actually BofA is larger monsoon

Market cap of IBM is 133B compared to BAC at roughly 170B

Another thing that is impressive is the Total assets of Bank of America are at 1.2 Trillion compared to that of IBM at under 200 billion.

Wal Mart and Microsoft assets combined do not total the assets of BofA.

A2

[DanRNC]

Article on smaller, growing tech companies in the Triangle.

Article

[willrusso]

The stats that I have put Charlotte/Mecklenburg at 1,000,000+ by 2012. The Charlotte Metro Region will be at roughly 3,500,000 in 15 years.

A2

The Triangle will be at 2,500,000 around that time. NC will have three truly large metros then.

[monsoon]

Actually BofA is larger monsoon

Market cap of IBM is 133B compared to BAC at roughly 170B

Another thing that is impressive is the Total assets of Bank of America are at 1.2 Trillion compared to that of IBM at under 200 billion.

Wal Mart and Microsoft assets combined do not total the assets of BofA.

A2

I am referring to number of employees which is what this discussion is revolving around. IBM has somewhere around 400K employees and is a true global company. The other important measure is revenues.

On the Fortune GLOBAL 500 list

IBM rank = 20 @ $96B

Bank of America rank = 52 @ $63B (2/3rds IBM)

[A2]

I am referring to number of employees which is what this discussion is revolving around. IBM has somewhere around 400K employees and is a true global company. The other important measure is revenues.

On the Fortune GLOBAL 500 list

IBM rank = 20 @ $96B

Bank of America rank = 52 @ $63B (2/3rds IBM)

This is true that the employee count is higher, mostly due to offshoring of tech jobs to India. BofA is still very much a global company with stakes around the globe with there new purchase of a chinese bank and plus there huge Investment Banking presence in every continent, excluding the obvious, Antartica.

But for the sake of your argument you are right, IBM does have more people on the payroll.

But, in terms of total assets and Market Cap they are not even close. BofA wins that battle hands down.

A2

[monsoon]

They have assets because they are a bank. They make money by lending out that money and paying people to deposit there. Its not really the same as comparing it to an IBM asset such as a building. Assets are usually considered a liability in the business world.

I believe the Market CAP you list is for the US stock market. IBM is significantly huge in Asia, Europe, Latin America as well where I believe, BofA has almost no presence.

This is true that the employee count is higher, mostly due to offshoring of tech jobs to India.

These would not count as employees.

[ncwebguy]

i keep hearing that but am confused a bit here. I am a software engineer who relocated here from NY. When I was in the process of choosing a city to relo to, my main criteria was "how many tech jobs" there are.. Raleigh PALED in comparison to how many programmer/dba/software engineer gigs were in Charlotte!!! I mean in the banks alone I think there are more techie gigs than in all of Raleigh.

Tech is more than just Information Technology (IT), as IT itself is more than just the software positions mentioned above and includes the hardware behind it all. Cisco, Lenovo, Nortel, and Sony Erricson all have significant presences in/near RTP.

Other significant non-IT tech in the triangle includes Glaxo Smith Cline, with "co-US HQs" here and Philly, Eli Lilly, RTI international, the EPA, and Underwriter Labatories.

BoA is larger, but is a banking concern with an IT department, vs. "pure" tech concerns. It has more assets than all those other companies because... it's a bank! They have deposits and the brick and mortar locations to faclitate them. I think it is great that Charlotte has gone from being in San Francisco's rear view mirror to blowing past them with the acquisitions made over the last 5 or so years.

Charlotte is lucky to have Hugh McColl as it's number one cheerleader, and the city has been wise to embrace his vision of what could be.

That kind of pro-urbanism from business leaders in the Triangle has been somewhat lacking, but there are signs of that changing. SAS has a vested interest in making Cary better, as evidenced by the upcoming 4 star hotel and other improvements near their campus. Progress Energy made their statement with their new tower in Raleigh, and are rumored to be doing even more in DT. RBC Centura has said they are moving their US HQ into downtown Raleigh as well, with a new tower to go online somewhere downtown in the next 3 years. Durham also has suppport in the form of Capital Broadcasting, with the Bulls, Diamond View, and the American Tobacco campus showing how Durham's core can be a great asset to its community.

If all this was going on in one CBD, the triangle would have a lot more national prominence. But that is another of the differences -- the triangle likes to keeping its secret, and Charlotte likes to shout its greatness from the increasing number of high rise rooftops!

[A2]

They have assets because they are a bank. They make money by lending out that money and paying people to deposit there. Its not really the same as comparing it to an IBM asset such as a building. Assets are usually considered a liability in the business world.

I believe the Market CAP you list is for the US stock market. IBM is significantly huge in Asia, Europe, Latin America as well where I believe, BofA has almost no presence.

These would not count as employees.

No assets are assets. They include security holdings all the way down to real estate.

IBM's assets are also assets. All assets are listed on the balance sheet are acurate and are for domestic and global assets combined. BAC is MUCH larger in this arena than IBM.

Most assets on the balance sheet of both are cash. In those of BofA they have a ton. IBM is primarily cash plus ownership in many other firms. (large stock ownership of other firms, specifically smaller tech firms)

Employees show up in the payroll under accounts payable, both domestic and foreign. Both companies have a HUGE presence in Asia, Eourpe, and Latin America (BAC and Citi both took huge hits when Argintina almost fell apart).

The company serves clients in 150 countries and has relationships with 98 percent of the U.S. Fortune 500 companies and 85 percent of the Global Fortune 500.

A2

[A2]

Here is where your argument is significant metro.

It blows BofA out here.

IBM's International Workforce:

IBM's worldwide headquarters are in Armonk, New York, USA. In 2002 we had over 315,000 employees working in more than 160 countries. We have manufacturing plants and research laboratories across North America, Europe and Asia Pacific.

A2

(again metro I am just debating this just to debate. Now back to topic)

[monsoon]

As I mentioned earlier, since the early 90s, IBM has taken significant steps to get rid of assets. Case in point the IBM campus in Charlotte. (where the the Wachovia CIC sits today). IBM choose to sell off this entire 1300 acre campus including all buildings, production facilities, etc etc. and they now lease what they need to do business. Likewise the former IBM building on Park Rd. was sold off to reduce its asset holdings. It's hard to believe, but IBM once owned as much floorspace in Charlotte as that found in all of downtown Charlotte.

Banks have huge assets because without them, they don't have a business. Companies like IBM minimize assets because they are an expense that subtract from the bottom line. As a result of this assets are rarely used to compare companies and are not an indication of their significance unless you are comparing businesses of like companies. say Banks to Banks.

[A2]

As I mentioned earlier, since the early 90s, IBM has taken significant steps to get rid of assets. Case in point the IBM campus in Charlotte. (where the the Wachovia CIC sits today). IBM choose to sell off this entire 1300 acre campus including all buildings, production facilities, etc etc. and they now lease what they need to do business. Likewise the former IBM building on Park Rd. was sold off to reduce its asset holdings. It's hard to believe, but IBM once owned as much floorspace in Charlotte as that found in all of downtown Charlotte.

Banks have huge assets because without them, they don't have a business. Companies like IBM minimize assets because they are an expense that subtract from the bottom line. As a result of this assets are rarely used to compare companies and are not an indication of their significance unless you are comparing businesses of like companies. say Banks to Banks.

ok. I will agree with that metro.

Since Assets are not your thing let's use cash and revenue numbers. Specifically the income factor. IBM still is blown out by BofA

Here are the Income statements from the 2 companies:

1st IBM

Net Income Applicable To Common Shares $1,829,000

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=ibm

2nd BofA

Net Income Applicable To Common Shares $4,292,000

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=bac

I am not arguing the assets anymore just shear profits from both companies core business and its effect on shareholders.

A2

BofA is number one in all categories on the Balance sheet, Income statement and from cash flows. Granted they might not have the same number of employees, but they are in no way smaller.

[RiverwoodCLT]

I hear that IBM has the largest cash reservers of any company in the world.

All I know it has been a good company to me.

I put in 35 years at IBM.

[DanRNC]

If all this was going on in one CBD, the triangle would have a lot more national prominence. But that is another of the differences -- the triangle likes to keeping its secret, and Charlotte likes to shout its greatness from the increasing number of high rise rooftops!

Excellent points ncwebguy but I do think the Triangle has a lot of national promoninence in the education/tech/biotech world-more so than we give ourselves credit for. I am a grad student in the sciences and people are always asking about this area and the universities. Many of the grad students that came out my program are making their way back here as they couldn't afford to live out west. I see the science-tech-based economy growing rapidly in the coming years here, especially with international companies. Much of this is already happening.

[A2]

I hear that IBM has the largest cash reservers of any company in the world.

All I know it has been a good company to me.

I put in 35 years at IBM.

While they have ton of cash for a tech company , BofA still has them beat there too (by a landslide)

IBM

Current Assets

Cash And Cash Equivalents 10,053,000

BofA

Current Assets

Cash And Cash Equivalents 170,275,000

A2

[monsoon]

While they have ton of cash for a tech company , BofA still has them beat there too (by a landslide)

IBM

Current Assets

Cash And Cash Equivalents 10,053,000

BofA

Current Assets

Cash And Cash Equivalents 170,275,000

A2

That is because regulators require BofA to keep a certain amount of cash on hand because it is a bank. I believe the requirement is 10% of deposits. IBM does not keep cash on hand because again it is a bad way to put money to use for your company. You are not comparing apples to apples.

As to the earlier statement return on shares, you are again falling for comparing the US company BofA vs IBM which is a global company. IBM trades on the stock exchanges in Europe and in Asia and you will need to add that up as well.

The bottom line is that BofA is no IBM and if you were to go to Japan, Germany, Russia, or almost anywhere else in the world and you mention BofA you will get huh? Mention IBM and they will immediately recognize it as one of the world's companies.

[A2]

That is because regulators require BofA to keep a certain amount of cash on hand because it is a bank.

As to the earlier statement return on shares, you are again falling for comparing the US company BofA vs IBM which is a global company. IBM trades on the stock exchanges in Europe and in Asia and you will need to add that up as well.

The bottom line is that BofA is no IBM and if you were to go to Japan, Germany, Russia, or almost anywhere else in the world and you mention BofA you will get huh? Mention IBM and they will immediately recognize it as one of the world's companies.

That is correct and 10% is the right number.But, these assets are not on their personal balance sheet. It is a regulatory requirement. These cash items that I listed would not be able to be listed as assets if they were in a "holding tank" to appease the feds.

That would be like me running a business and keeping colateral for clients (ie cash and cash equivalents) at MY bank in a checking account. It is not done and is illegal. The trillion dollars that BofA has on deposit is backed by deposits not counted as BofA's assets. For the International part:

Bank of America is in over 150 countires.

Maybe one could argue that one company is more recognizable than the other, but BofA is similar to Bank of China and Deutsche Bank in Germany when it comes to foreign recognition. These types of banks are known the world over because of the International business recognition plus because of the name alone. "Bank of America" kind of gives it away.

A2

[A2]

BTW the TOTAL cash on hand to meet the Fed requirements is 10% or roughly 110-115Billion.

The total piggy bank of BofA is well over 300B. Subtract the two and BofA still has much more cash than IBM. (a ton more). BTW, I do agree with you and the cash position of companies not being a great way to operate. Cash is earning NOTHING sitting still, that is why Microsoft has been the butt of jokes by many an analyst. Do something with that cash Gate's. Either give sharehloders more in return (ie a dividend) or buy another company.

BUT

There is ONE thing that you never mentioned that would put my ramblings to bed Metro. Do you want to know what it is ? (one hint is has NOTHING to do with Int'l biz or number of employees)

(ok here goes....drum roll please)

ITS REVENUE!!! That is what makes IBM win this argument.

2005 REVENUE

BofA

Revenue (ttm): 53.36B

IBM

Revenue (ttm): 96.20B

Clearly the winner in this all important category is IBM.

A2

NOW back to topic.

[monsoon]

There is ONE thing that you never mentioned that would put my ramblings to bed Metro. Do you want to know what it is ? (one hint is has NOTHING to do with Int'l biz or number of employees)

(ok here goes....drum roll please)

ITS REVENUE!!! That is what makes IBM win this argument.

I did mention this. I guess my posts were for naught.

[A2]

I did mention this. I guess my posts were for naught.

Ok. I am not sure I saw it , but if you did I apologize. To be honest I just wanted to debate a little longer. LOL. You know I am all about giving you grief metro.

A2

[ilektronik]

If you are correct metro and there are indeed more tech jobs in the triangle, then they are definitely not doing a good job advertising them. I can quit my job right now, walk outside and have a new job within 2 hours (i know because I've done this and i've only been in Charlotte since March). It is just insane how many programmer gigs there are here. I tried to find a job in triangle before I even considered Charlotte (because I know people there, Raleigh was my first choice) and had no luck at all.

Most of the jobs coming out of IBM and Cisco were all network/hardware/engineering type of jobs. Remember that IBM and Cisco are known more for their hardware than their software. I suppose these are tech jobs none the less though. I REALLY tried hard to find a job at RedHat (i'm an uber linux nerd who's submitted a magnitude of kernel patches to sourceforge) and had no luck with that either.

Again though, this is only my experience. I found that there are far more software oriented gigs here in Charlotte.

[monsoon]

Remember that IBM and Cisco are known more for their hardware than their software. I suppose these are tech jobs none the less though. I REALLY tried hard to find a job at RedHat (i'm an uber linux nerd who's submitted a magnitude of kernel patches to sourceforge) and had no luck with that either.

Heh, Only Microsoft sells more software than IBM and that doesn't count all of the embedded software and microcode found in IBM's hardware products. Same for Cisco. Cisco hires more programmers than engineers. Both companies have massive programming centers in the RDU area. I am surprised you are not more familiar with this.

Redhat is not a programming company a la Microsoft, though they do employ some programmers. I would have thought you would have realized that as well.

[DanRNC]

I have never known anyone in this area that has had trouble finding or obtaining programming jobs. The majority of the people that locate here do so for that very reason. Most jobs in RTP (the park alone) are in IT/Informatics/Pervasive Computing/Telecommunications (over 20,000). This number doesn't include SAS, every other company outside of the park in the Triangle, the universities, the NC Supercomputing Center, MCNC, the supercomputing facility at EPA.