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Did Bush and the Federal Govt Fail New Orleans

monsoon

By monsoon
in The Coffee House

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Charleston native Burg

Charleston native

Posted
Posted

There were warnings at least two days before the storm's impact that the city might very well flood.  Do you really think it was reasonable to expect the local government to be equipped to handle that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes! Absolutely. What do you think the purpose of local and state governments is? These are not just figureheads all under the jurisdiction of the federal government. The Constitution was written primarily to unite the states, and the states are supposed to take care of things themselves. Otherwise, what's the point in having them? In this case, the mayor of NO and the governor of LA were both incompetent and lacked the foresight to adequately prepare for the storm. The mayor and governor were both aware of the hurricane's path, and they had adequate time to prepare for it. If you look in the city of New Orleans operations, you will see a detailed hurricane evacuation plan. This plan was NOT implemented!! Bush even told the state governor to order a mandatory evacuation of everybody, and she waited 24 hours before making a decision! By the time the order was given, Katrina had already started her landfall.

I know that ordinarily it is a good idea to let local and state officials do their jobs.  However, the Department of Homeland Secuity has the ability to declare a "situation of national consequence," which allows it to immediately step in and take over.  Don't you think this qualifies?

Not immediately. Again, and I've said this ad nauseum, you want local and state governments handling things unless the situation starts falling apart, which is what heppened in NO. This is also a natural disaster, not an attack, and you don't want the president micro-managing something that requires more local and state involvement. In an attack, the military takes over and only needs local and state help in assessing locations and resources.

To continue your analogy of a company:  If the lower managers aren't able to handle a desperate situation and the CEO doesn't immediately step in (say he plays golf while the company collapses),  don't you think the shareholders would be calling for his head?

Yes, but they'd also demand lower management levels rearranged and/or fired. I see no liberal Democrat even acknowledging the failures of the mayor and the governor.

Florida had a terrible hurricane season last year, but it experienced nothing like what New Orleans is going through.  Sure there was plenty of destruction, but no major cities were destroyed.  Also, don't you think that the governor being the president's brother had anything to do with the rapid availability of federal resources?

Oh yes, here is another "Bush the Evil Clan" conspiracy! How would you explain the proper evacuation of hundreds of thousands in the state? There was no federal effort in proactive actions in preparing for the storms.

The vast majority of the looting was a result of being abandoned with absolutely no resources whatsoever.  It was not the work of opportunist criminals.

SAY WHAT?!?! Holy cow, so we can just absolve criminal behavior because they're poor, right? :rolleyes: It sickens me that people will justify insane acts because of people's desperation. I have no problem with people taking food and water, but TVs?!??!? Nikes?!?!? Jewelry?!?!?! Unbelievable. :sick:

Also, about all these buses the city had... Who was the mayor going to get to drive them?  Where were they going to go?  The mayor can't just call up another city and demand that thousands of his most destitute citizens be sheltered there for months.

Yes, he can! I cannot believe the ignorance that is being demonstrated here. If the mayor were a true leader, he would have got city office workers, janitors, sanitation workers or even cops to drive the buses! They could have been driven inland to Baton Rouge (where many evacuees are!) or Shreveport. Schools, civic centers, and airports could be used as shelters. It truly is amazing...in order to increase and feed your anger and hatred for Bush, you would completely ignore the mayor for his mistakes.

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Gusterfell Burg

Gusterfell

Posted
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Yes, but they'd also demand lower management levels rearranged and/or fired. I see no liberal Democrat even acknowledging the failures of the mayor and the governor.

I did yesterday, and the day before. I've also said that it up to their constituents to hold them responsible, not us.

Oh yes, here is another "Bush the Evil Clan" conspiracy! How would you explain the proper evacuation of hundreds of thousands in the state? There was no federal effort in proactive actions in preparing for the storms.

When was an entire major metropolitan area evacuated? Are you denying there was a federal relief effort underway immediately after the storms?

SAY WHAT?!?! Holy cow, so we can just absolve criminal behavior because they're poor, right? :rolleyes: It sickens me that people will justify insane acts because of people's desperation.

Right, they should just go off and starve.

I have no problem with people taking food and water, but TVs?!??!? Nikes?!?!? Jewelry?!?!?! Unbelievable. :sick:

A few bad apples had their pictures on TV. The vast majority of these people were not looting at all, and the vast majority of the looters were after food, water, and dry clothes.

Yes, he can! I cannot believe the ignorance that is being demonstrated here. If the mayor were a true leader, he would have got city office workers, janitors, sanitation workers or even cops to drive the buses!
Those people were victims themselves, remember? Wouldn't you make sure your own family was safe before driving a bus of strangers out?

They could have been driven inland to Baton Rouge (where many evacuees are!) or Shreveport. Schools, civic centers, and airports could be used as shelters.

Without FEMA relief and National Guard troops, what would prevent those shelters from becoming what the Superdome was?

It truly is amazing...in order to increase and feed your anger and hatred for Bush, you would completely ignore the mayor for his mistakes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In case you forgot, this thread is about whether or not Bush and the feds failed. I've said repeatedly that the mayor deserves some blame, but that's irrelevent to this discussion.

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Charleston native Burg

Charleston native

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I did yesterday, and the day before.  I've also said that it up to their constituents to hold them responsible, not us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, so why the insistance of holding Bush accountable for everything? I've said previously, he was late in getting federal aid in by 1 day. If he had done it Wednesday and not Thursday, some things might have turned out differently.

Right, they should just go off and starve.

Instead of taking each sentence out of context, please read the entire paragraph. I already said that it was understandable to steal food and bottled water.

A few bad apples had their pictures on TV.  The vast majority of these people were not looting at all, and the vast majority of the looters were after food, water, and dry clothes.

There were more than a few bad apples. Many different images showed people bashing in jewelry and gun store doors.

Those people were victims themselves, remember?  Wouldn't you make sure your own family was safe before driving a bus of strangers out?

I understand that, but when people are employed with a public service organization, they are required to report for work, especially in times of emergencies. Many people in police and fire would've been with their families as well, but their duty prevented them from that.

Without FEMA relief and National Guard troops, what would prevent those shelters from becoming what the Superdome was?

It is the governor's responsibility to call up the National Guard and establish security for the shelters and other areas. NG is a state-run organization except when they are called up for war. The governor could also have used state police and municipal police from Shreveport and Baton Rouge. She had the resources and ability.

In case you forgot, this thread is about whether or not Bush and the feds failed.  I've said repeatedly that the mayor deserves some blame, but that's irrelefent to this discussion.

I didn't forget, but if my argument says that Bush is only partly to blame, I must explain my answer by attributing where I think most of the blame should go.

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cinco Burg

cinco

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Posted

the governor of LA should and probably will lose her job @ election time. as for the president, we won't have the luxury of ousting him. i have never heard such lousy excuses from this "hawk" of a president and his supporters. not only did he fail the people of the united states he has once again proved himself a tactless coward. if you are sheep enough to fall into the spin that he is blameless - then nothing can be done for you. as for mr. bush, where does the buck stop?

he should have just rendezvoused with condee rice and enjoyed the rest of his vacation. cutting short your (record long) vacation by 2 days - when the nation is already 2 days into a tragedy - speaks volumes.

failure.

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cinco Burg

cinco

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Posted

What about the mayor of NO? He hasn't displayed the leadership that other mayors such as Giuliani did on 9/11. It will be interesting to see what happens to Nagin for mayor next year.

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he will win. he showed he has passion, and passion goes along way in group of people who already think the president has failed them. it is a type of spin, but one that rove/bush would be proud of -if he were their own.

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Gusterfell Burg

Gusterfell

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OK, so why the insistance of holding Bush accountable for everything? I've said previously, he was late in getting federal aid in by 1 day. If he had done it Wednesday and not Thursday, some things might have turned out differently.

I'm not holding Bush accountable for everything. I'm holding him accountable for that delay. I'm holding him accountable for playing golf 24 hours after the levees burst. I'm holding him accountable for giving the same old speech on Iraq on Wednesday. I'm holding him accountable for appointing officials who weren't fit to manage the situation.

Instead of taking each sentence out of context, please read the entire paragraph. I already said that it was understandable to steal food and bottled water.

Yes you did, but your point was that I was excusing criminal activity. Is it not a crime to steal food and water? Is it that much worse to steal luxury items that were going to be written of as total losses anyway?

There were more than a few bad apples. Many different images showed people bashing in jewelry and gun store doors.

Yes, but they were a small amount compared to the tens of thousands of people who remained as civil as the situation allowed.

I understand that, but when people are employed with a public service organization, they are required to report for work, especially in times of emergencies. Many people in police and fire would've been with their families as well, but their duty prevented them from that.

Police and fire are expected to stay, and they know that when they sign up for the job. School bus drivers? I don't think so.

It is the governor's responsibility to call up the National Guard and establish security for the shelters and other areas. NG is a state-run organization except when they are called up for war. The governor could also have used state police and municipal police from Shreveport and Baton Rouge. She had the resources and ability.

Two small cities do not have the resources to sustain the population of a major city, in addition to their own, for an indefinite period. New Orleans accounts for a major part of the state's population and economy. The rest of the state would not be able to absorb the impact without outside help.

I didn't forget, but if my argument says that Bush is only partly to blame, I must explain my answer by attributing where I think most of the blame should go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, but why criticise me for doing the same?

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Ruso Hamlet

Ruso

Posted
Posted

Sorry for the double post, but I havent state this too strongly:

I do agree that blaiming Bush is absolutely ridiculous, and I do agree there has been a lot of oportunists who have used this disaster to attack him. But, I do believe that going on vacation and acting as late as he did was a huge mistake. Also, I think that if he was a democrat, many of you would be just bashing against him, regardless of what you have said before. So, I doubt any of you, "anti-liberals" would be free of politicizing(is that the correct word?) this tragedy. He who is free of sin, throw the first rock...

:ph34r:

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PghUSA Town

PghUSA

Posted
Posted

To all those who think Bush is the primary or even secondary culprit in all this you really should consider reading this piece:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

For any mayor or governor to have a hurricane drill 13 months before Katrina and NOT fix the errors of the drill (simulating a "flooded" NOLA with 300,000 citizens trapped). Last year with Ivan bearing down the local media pointed out that school and metro busses were NOT used to evacuate the poor and elderly from the city, the mayor and governor promised improvements, it's been a year and counting so far (and the Feds are late?). During George in the late 1990's the Superdome shelter was infested by crime and disorder (no AC no showers), Nagin and Blanco did nothing to improve the situation, the feds don't own the Superdome. It's interesting also that the contingency plan on the New Orleans city website states that "the safe evacuations of threatened populations" is its mission, but the mayor and governor apparently failed to read that. The governor and mayor, according to the article waited and waited until the President called and urged them to call the National Hurricane Center and proposed evacuations to actually do the job they were elected to do, what if the cops didn't come to your house on a 911 call until the President woke up and "urged" them to respond? Your city police aren't under the command of the White House or is that what we want? What if the Governor and Mayor actually did thier job?

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters.

I am just getting tired of all this Bush blaming, anyone on this board who honestly feels that Bush failed to act quickly should move for the immediate impeachment of the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans, if Bush moved as slowly as they did FEMA wouldn't even be in Lousiana today.

My view is to help people, donate, see what we can do, so I have no ill will towards a Governor and Mayor that may have been over their head, and getting bad info, but then again they get paid to make sure they aren't over their head and they are getting the right info, if we are going to blame people the Mayor and Governor have been playing with this thing since at least 98, it is the Mayors responsibility to take care of New Orleans. I'd love to blame all of Pittsburgh's and Western Pennsylvanians problems on the President, it's up to the mayor and governor TO CALL for his help, not the other way around.

If we are going to point fingers do so equally and in a non-partisan way. Bush isn't the one who left hundreds of school busses to flood in New Orleans, he isn't the one that thwarted the city and state's hurricane drills.

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jfl25 Hamlet

jfl25

Posted
Posted

IMO I think that there was miscommunication and alot of fault to go around .The inportant thing we need to remember is there are still THOUSANDS of people in need of help and all this name calling isn't helping with anything.Democrats are gonna blame Repubicans, and Republicans are gonna blame Democrats but the truth of the matter is EVERYONE who has any part in planning or implementing evacuations and/or response to disasters should shoulder some of the blame(Theres PLENTY to go around).

The government was slow in response both State and Federal, but hind site is 20/20. All I can hope for is that ther has been lessons learned by everyone. These type storms are not anything to mess with.This nation needs to stand together now instead of playing the its not my fault game.

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derrickskugler Whistle-Stop

derrickskugler

Posted
Posted

I have tried to stay away from this post for as long as I could, but I just can't any longer.

I don't appreciate being called out for backing up another poster's post, and whether or not a moderator believes they are facts or opinions really doesn't matter to me, especially when he himself has his own agenda.

The FACT here is that blame should be SHARED. Conservatives can't hide behind "Bush is innocent" anymore than Liberals can hide behind "Bush in the Devil!" Bush isn't innocent, but he's an angel compared to the collasal failures that are Nagin and Blanco.

Nagin had the buses just sitting there waiting for him to use and for whatever reason, did not use them. That negligence was most likely responsible for 100 times as many deaths as Bush waiting 24 hours. If you want to dispute that, you've lost all credibility in this discussion.

Blanco now doesn't want to make people evacuate because it might be "uncomfortable" for people to leave now. Nevermind that the water in New Orleans is currently at TEN TIMES the safe limit for chemicals and diseases, according to the CDC. Chances are, Blanco will end up being directly responsible for many more deaths from this alone, nevermind her failure to call on the National Guard for more than 48 hours after she had the ability to, which caused countless deaths from the looters, as well as millions of additional dollars in damage to the city and merchandise.

Anyone who wants to dispute that the two LIBERAL DEMOCRATS have blood on their hands and place the blame all on Bush are just mentally sick and can not be helped. They are the "kool-aid drinkers" of the world... what are you going to do?

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waccamatt Town

waccamatt

Posted
Posted

Actually, Derrick, what makes you think that a Louisiana democrat would be "liberal"? I am sick and tired of people acting like the term liberal is bad. To me a liberal is an open-minded, caring person with concern for their fellow man. I guess a "conservative" is the opposite of that.

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Ruso Hamlet

Ruso

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Posted

Actually, Derrick, what makes you think that a Louisiana democrat would be "liberal"? I am sick and tired of people acting like the term liberal is bad. To me a liberal is an open-minded, caring person with concern for their fellow man. I guess a "conservative" is the opposite of that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly, liberalism does not necessarily imply an affilition to the democratic party.

:ph34r:

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VA2SA 05 Unincorporated Area

VA2SA 05

Posted
Posted

I see Bush has become the pinata for this party..  The people I would lay blame on are local government for failing to organize an evacuation plan that included the poor/elderly/sick and those that just could not get out by their own means. 

Federal government has been going 24/7 non-stop since they were ordered to take over this effort.  Coast Guard has been plucking people off of houses since the flooding began.  I just don't see how the blame could be placed on Bush of all people...

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Very well put glad to see others actually think for themselves instead of soaking up everything the media says. This is just another attempt to smear Bush.. Honestly hes in for 3 more years whats the point let him be he has no control over a damn Hurricane. Some libs are saying hes not reacting cause New Orleans has large African American population and he wants them to die! Honestly that is low!

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VA2SA 05 Unincorporated Area

VA2SA 05

Posted
Posted

Actually, Derrick, what makes you think that a Louisiana democrat would be "liberal"? I am sick and tired of people acting like the term liberal is bad. To me a liberal is an open-minded, caring person with concern for their fellow man. I guess a "conservative" is the opposite of that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But see thats your view... Me and others don't agree... Isnt that great thing about this country? Personally to me liberals are like a overbearing mother who can't let their child grow up and leave home "Bigger government social prgrams etc"

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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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"Bigger government social prgrams etc"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except under Bush, government is bigger, and social programs are larger. (more people on welfare now than when Clinton ran things) Does that mean you are going to call him out on it, or are you going to ignore this little fact? Just like ignoring his failure in leadership in dealing with the disaster in NO.

--------

In regards to the local government in Louisiana.

On the Friday before the storm hit, Bush took the unprecidented step in declaring Louisiana a Federal disaster area, before the storm even hit. That means in the law that the Federal government, not the local governments, will be responsible for directing the recovery effort after the storm. After the storm hit, the local governments were requesting and begging for the promised help that never came. I will repeat. The local governments were waiting on the promised federal help that never came. Well, not until it became a political problem for Bush and his cronies.

Bush declared it a Federal disaster then ignored the problem by remaining on vacation, making speaches about Iraq, eating cake and playing the guitar. It is a clear failure in leadership.

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paulblackgsx Whistle-Stop

paulblackgsx

Posted
Posted

I probably shouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole because somebody is going to think I have an agenda. I though I do mean it as any honest question for discussion:

On the Friday before the storm hit, Bush took the unprecidented step in declaring Louisiana a Federal disaster area, before the storm even hit. That means in the law that the Federal government, not the local governments, will be responsible for directing the recovery effort after the storm

The Robert T Stafford Disaster Relief Act does not allow the president to "take control" of relief efforts when declaring a federal disaster area, but to provide "any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to use its available personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and other resources in support of state and local disaster assistance efforts;"

Is there another law that applies here that I'm just not aware of?

Here is a reference to the law http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm

BTW Let me add the discalimer that I in NO way believe that the Federal government is completely blameless here. I just wanted to discuss whether Bush really ever had the authority to take over relief efforts. In fact, I think the governor and FEMA director have a lot more to answer for than the mayor or Bush. Though neither escape in my mind either.

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sleepy Burg

sleepy

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Posted

I think we mentioned earlier that FEMA is going to be made a scapegoat to protect Bush.  Just as the CIA took the fall when it was discovered there were no WMDs in Iraq which was the stated reason for going to war by Bush.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, and then George Tenet, the head of the CIA, got his Freedom Medal.

:(

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