Ideas for Downtown

[Spartan]

Good point. That might be the biggest drawback for families moving to downtown. I don't know what school zones cover downtown, but I'm guessing Cleveland/Carver or Park Hills/Carver... maybe Pine St/McCracken on the eastern side of downtown?

Spartan HS is consistantly among the top 3% of high schools in the nation. The problem is that unless you're in the Pine Street School or Jesse Boyd Elem school zones, you might end up at one of the worse schools. Remember that debate a few years back about rezoning the Lan-Yair site so that people who move there wouldn't have to go to Houston Elem?

District 7 has a lot of work to do with the inner city schools. I'm not sure what they can do, though.

Maybe we can get that school voucher thing passed, and people can try to go to what ever schools they want to.

Spartan, I believe what you're saying is let's make downtown Spartanburg a viable alternative to the suburbs and not just a place for [young] people and tourists to eat and bar hop. It does appear that most cities in the US want to follow this model and I fear that Spartanburg's leaders will follow suit. I recently visited Chattanooga (to see what all the fuss was about) and left dissappointed. Downtown Chattanooga didn't seem a whole lot different than Greenville, Asheville, or Athens, Georgia.

What would be the obstacles? In my opinion I don't think the middle class (families) is ready to fully embrace downtown living. Middle class families are too comfortable with their cul-de-sacs, manicured lawns, and Wal-Marts. There's also the school issue. Everyone in Spartanburg knows that our inner city schools have lower achievement scores while the suburban schools are some of the finest in the state. And, of course, there's crime or the perception of crime. Unfortunately the H-J exaggerates every instance of downtown crime and that only reinforces the notion that downtown Spartanburg is a no-mans land of roving gangs of hoodlums.

That said, I do believe the middle class is ready now to embrace a sense of place, one that cannot be found in suburbia. Flight to the suburbs, began following World War II, might not be ending and may not even be slowing but the American dream of owning a house in the suburbs is probably not on the top of our list of priorities anymore. Its hard for me to imagine someone having warm fuzzy feelings for "downtown" Boiling Springs or "downtown" Powdersville. I think the middle class is beginning to tire of sterile shopping centers, clogged roads, and acres of asphalt parking lots. Downtowns are special. They're different and people are beginning to be attracted to the milieu of city living.

Another obstacle; I worry that city leaders in Spartanburg will feel pressured to follow the Greenville and Chattanooga models and make downtown a destination only. Spartanburg's current leadership has some great ideas but I'm not certain they're patient enough to see downtown evolve into something that you have envisioned.

Over time more and more middle class people will discover the virtues of downtown living. But for the time being I see most downtowns as the home of young professionals and singles whose needs are much different than the average middle class family.

[Teshie de Carolina]

Spartan, you are right in that the city as theme park is the wrong idea. Even New York City (where tourism is the largest money-maker (welcome to the post-modern world)), I am sure attracts tourist because it is where they can experience a true urban environment.

While I agree with making "downtown" a truly livable place is a goal, I also think that the idea of "downtown" should be expanded - lest downtown Spartanburg become a tiny kernel of walkable urbanism in the midst of a placeless, asphalt-covered autoslum aka Spartanburg County. While 22 houses are going up near downtown, there are also many more going up near the new ill-advised location of Dorman High. Ya gotta think the footprint of downtown Charleston from Broad to the tip could probably fit in the empty space on the Dorman campus.

I think we need to dream big - not only making Main from Dean to Pine two-lanes, but all the way to Hillcrest and beyond - and with buildings built up to the street., with an eye toward a hip, walkable city with public transportation a la St. Charles streetcar line that is the home of Converse and Wofford, and a city that does not need to look towards Greenville for inspiration but aspires to even greater ambitions.

It is great to see a place/forum where many are excited/hopeful for the future of Spartanburg. As a disclaimer, I will say I have no formal training/educaton in urban plannning or architecture, so I am open to any criticism, etc.

[Spartan]

Well said. You don't need a degree to post here, just an opinion!

The idea of expanding downtown is a good one. I wonder though- do you mean in terms of the "main st" feel to the rest of downtown? Or do you mean doing beyond the normal boundaries that is considered downtown? The area that I have always considered "downtown" is much larger than the truely walkable parts of it, bounded by Daniel Morgan, Henry, and Pine (plus E Main to around Converse).

I think that some of our concerns will be addressed in the downtown master plan, which I hope to see something about soon.

[krazeeboi]

I think that you have to somewhat recreate downtown into a place to visit and to live, with a bit more emphasis on the "visit" aspect. I say this because it will take more than just your basics--grocery stores, pharmacies, dry cleaners, etc.--to get people to seriously consider living downtown. However, if they will be living close to things downtown that they can easily walk to that add to downtown's quality of life, that just may sway them. Downtown living comes with a premium, as you're giving up some space for accessibility, and why would anyone want to do that just for the basics which are only a short car ride away in the suburbs? So I think it has to be a combination of both, but if I had to choose one, I'd say focus on the "visit" aspect first.

But I do agree with you that Spartanburg, while learning from Greenville and implementing certain things that have been successful for that city, should carve its own path. That way, the Upstate's two largest cities would help compliment each other more.

[Spartan]

Ultimately, that should be the goal. I completely agree. Near term, many of those things already exist, but few are within walking distance of the main downtown area.

Just out of curiousity, why should the visit aspect go first? Why not have that second in priority?

Its been tried in other places, and it takes a loooong time to work...

[gs3]

You just made my point. Greenville has most everything in place, except the residential part, which is starting to take shape as we speak.

[krazeeboi]

Just out of curiousity, why should the visit aspect go first? Why not have that second in priority?

[Spartan]

I like your thoughts above Spartan. I agree 100% a city should play on its strengths and not copy other cities. Charleston has done this well. Greenville has done this very well. One that doesn't much recognition is Aiken.....Aiken has a distinct character and has played on those strengths with its downtown. I would hope to see Spartanburg develop and enhance it's own character.

Since GV seemed to pop up so many times above, I was a little perplexed by your comment quoted above. Greenville's downtown living has been thriving now for several years with numerous developments, it's not just a "pretty place" to visit. Living is one of it's strongest features.