A VISION FOR PROVIDENCE

[Frankie811]

http://www.newurbannews.com/ProvCharrette.html

[Cotuit]

Today's Journal.

[Garris]

Today's Journal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds interesting! Anyone else going to be there? I'm going to try to make it tonight, but I'm on call for the hospital. If not tonight, I'll make it tomorrow...

- Garris

[Cotuit]

I'm going to go tonight.

[Garris]

I'm going to go tonight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it was interesting, especially the financial presentation (Providence is doing well compared to other New England cities with surprisingly high levels of retail/restaurant activity and a tiny office vacancy rate (!!??!!) but with stagnant office rents and a dismal job outlook with poor growth, low retention of 24-35 yr olds, and poor prospects)... Nothing surprising in the least, I thought. Everything was painted in the broadest of brush strokes and was very, very familiar:

- Mixed use development everywhere

- Transportation spine down Allen's Ave into Eddy into Memorial Drive (no real consideration LRT, unfortunately, which an audience member brought up)

- Tallest buildings closest to downtown (they apparently imagine only another 1-2 tall buildings aside from what's already been proposed, with buildings getting smaller farther from the downtown core)

- Maximization of sightlines to the water and better integration into the waterfront (probably the best idea and clearest vision)

- Build out the city's underutilized properties

- Optimize the West-Downcity connections

Interestingly, of all the plans I've heard (including the recent Duany plan), this was by far and away the lightest on details. As I said, this was very broad, and seemingly a surprising amount of work for such vague recommendations. While they said they weren't going to focus much on the highway move since it was at least 7 years away, oddly, that's where most of their time (and much of their imagination) was spent during the presentation.

My biggest critique is that it's a very boring plan. Sure, its very realistic, very practical, and maybe even very doable, but it doesn't have an ounce of creativity, imagination, or spark. It has no centerpoint, no "feature" piece that everyone can rally around and go, "Wow! We want that!"

The audience feedback was arguably the most interesting part for the themes that came up:

- The Save India/Fox Point folks were out in force, with a zillion people chiming in about how terrible development would be there... They were right about the lack of imagination for that space, though. I really have to say, however, how awesome an idea it is to bring N/S Main, Wickenden, and the Marina/harbor/Fox Point area together finally after the highway move...

- Several people (almost all over 60 years of age, as an aside) argued against tall buildings of any type anywhere in the city...

- Lots of people argued for more open space (its a city folks! If we have much more open space, where's the city part?)

- One women brought up the lack of stated opportunities for those without college degrees in the economic plan. She's certainly right, but show me one community in the US (or all the Western world, for that matter) that's figured out a bright, growing, highly employed future for those without higher education...

- One guy very rightly brought up the lack of a truly impressive "gateway" entrance to the city for folks traveling here by car or bus...

- Lots of people brought up Cotuit's point about how poorly designed the Promenade area is for pedestrians right now, a point which, quixotically, the presenters just didn't seem to get and never addressed well...

- Two or three people brought up possible racial and artist discrimination in all of the work being done, despite clear accomodations and references to the artist community several times in the presentation...

- Fascinatingly, there was almost no discussion amongst the audience (or in the presentation) about two of the most dynamic neighborhoods in the study, the Capitol Center and Atwell Ave... It was all Fox Point, 195 land, Allen's Ave, West End discussion.

And that's about it. Lots of recognizable movers and shakers there from the political and development community (I even got to talk with a few). It was a fun night. I left about 9:00, and it started at 6 (3 hours!).

- Garris

[Recchia]

- Mixed use development everywhere

- Transportation spine down Allen's Ave into Eddy into Memorial Drive (no real consideration LRT, unfortunately, which an audience member brought up)

- Tallest buildings closest to downtown (they apparently imagine only another 1-2 tall buildings aside from what's already been proposed, with buildings getting smaller farther from the downtown core)

- Maximization of sightlines to the water and better integration into the waterfront (probably the best idea and clearest vision)

- Build out the city's underutilized properties

- Optimize the West-Downcity connections

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So they didn't mention anything specific related to any of the mentioned topics?

[Cotuit]

I left at 8pm, I was tiring of the Fox Pointers whining about Fox's Point, and I was late to meet people for dinner. The first old bag that spoke about wanting to have trees along 95 instead of buildings was the best, I think if you were sitting near me you could actually hear my eyes rolling. Yes let's put trees along 95 and all sit along the edge and watch the cars go by.

By far the most interesting, and important part of the presentation was the economic issues. I really wished that they had come right out and said the schools suck. The 25-34 year olds aren't leaving because there are no jobs, they are leaving because the schools suck, and there are no jobs because there are no talented 25-34 year olds here (present company in the 25-34 range excluded, of course).

Really I wish they had just left the Fox's Point bit out of it. They could have just sent a memo to the mayor with their recommendations on it, then focused their energy on everything else, would have kept the Fox Point NIMBYs away and we could have actually talked about some important things, like the connections of the Promenade to Federal Hill and Downcity. I don't see how they think the Promenade will thrive without those connections.

Before the presentation I asked Katherine about what their thoughts were regarding connecting the Jewelry District to Narragansett Landing along Allens and Eddy (the crossings under the relocated 195 interchange). She didn't have an answer. I thought that was why they were here. Any idiot can redraw the streetgrid between the JD and Downcity, the difficult connections need the vision. She also said the Hospital had been asking about it.

One thing she did mention, which I was interested in is a proposal from RIPTA to shuttle the buses around the city with stops spaced out around the core. Sounds like something I recently proposed in the Kennedy Plaza thread, :pats self on back:

The 195 land proposals weren't really any different than anything already proposed by the city and DOT. I understand this was a broad stroke kind of presentation and a first blush on an ongoing creative process. But again, any idiot can reconnect the streetgrid, any idiot can propose ground level retail with mised use upper floors, any idiot could propose tall buildings near the core getting smaller as you move out. The things I want to hear from planners is how to target development uses to create a vibrant streetlife and a good flow of uses throughout the city.

I was happy to hear the mayor say the city is setting up a website on this. Everyone who did not attend should be sure to view it when it's up and send in your feedback.

[Cotuit]

I'm guess I'm going to have to put my idea for the Dean Street overpass down on paper, since the professionals didn't do it.

[gregw]

Overall I love the plan.

Cianci in his New Cities proposal wanted to raze almost everything in the Promenade area (including much of the Foundry) to create a glitzy suburban style office park.

The Providence 2020 plan sensibly retains the historic industrial buildings while calling for new contruction to add density. That will help make it an attractive area for tech space as well as for cool mixed use proposals.

One disappointment in the proposal for Promenade was the lack of consideration for making the area accessible for pedestrians although they did suggest making the Dean Kinsley intersection tighter to slow down traffic..

Someone in the audience said there is no good pedestrian connection between Promenade and Federal Hill. Totally true. It would be nice if they could add a lane on the Dean St. overpass for pedestrians and bikes.

As far as the rest of the plan is concerned, what's not to like. I love the waterfront plans such as the Dorrance St. park. I think the Fox Point nibmyites who don't want any buildings in India Point should see the value of the planners' idea is that buildings would provide a better border for the park than a highway.

[Cotuit]

I think the Fox Point nibmyites who don't want any buildings in India Point should see the value of the  planners' idea is that buildings would provide a better border for the park than a highway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed, it will also give people from other parts of the city a reason to go there. With economic activity in the form of shops and restaurants on the waterfront, people will want to go there. I can picture bring my parents to a waterside restaurant down there when they're in town for a visit. Would I bring them to India Point now, without such uses? No, they've seen grass and trees before, there's no reason to. Having residents south of the highway will give the area a 24-hour presense. Residents will demand police patrols, and will call the police if anything shady goes down. Without those resident guardians, the area becomes a no man's zone after dark.

As for the size of the park, India Point Park is plenty large enough as it is, and the proposal still calls for making it bigger with a 150' (100'?) zone between the water and the buildings. I find it interesting that when 100' is standing on end in the form of a building, it is perceived as a massive monstrosity, but when you lay 100' feet on it's side in the form of a park it suddenly becomes a vanishly small piece of real estate.

I don't understand why people couldn't wrap their brain around the idea of massing models. The three proposed towers are only what could happen, there doesn't need to be three, they don't need to be that tall, anything could happen. The fact is that land is private and the property owner can do whatever the hell they want within current zoning laws, instead of beating a build-nothing drum, people concerned with the park should be making sure that the developer is encouraged to build sensibly while maximizing his/her economic return.

[Cotuit]

Today's Journal

[Recchia]

"Raising the height of the buildings makes it even more canyon-like and creates more separation from the neighborhoods," said one speaker who would not give her name.

What's with people being afraid of heights? It's not like 300 feet would be a drastic new addition to Providence. I think it'd be cool to have tall buildings around 95, it'd make it alot more like driving down the Mass Pike into Boston.

[billypc99]

Cotuit, last night would of been perfect to wear an urbanplanet.org T-shirt

[Garris]

I left at 8pm, I was tiring of the Fox Pointers whining about Fox's Point...  Really I wish they had just left the Fox's Point bit out of it. They could have just sent a memo to the mayor with their recommendations on it, then focused their energy on everything else, would have kept the Fox Point NIMBYs away and we could have actually talked about some important things, like the connections of the Promenade to Federal Hill and Downcity.

I'm actually going to e-mail their association and ask them to please take this issue to individual people and not clog future public forums like that. It was difficult for anyone to discuss anything else...

The first old bag that spoke about wanting to have trees along 95 instead of buildings was the best, I think if you were sitting near me you could actually hear my eyes rolling.  Yes let's put trees along 95 and all sit along the edge and watch the cars go by.

Yes, I knew we were in trouble with this comment, "Highways don't have to be ugly. They can be beautiful, if they have trees..." Oh, boy...

By far the most interesting, and important part of the presentation was the economic issues. I really wished that they had come right out and said the schools suck. The 25-34 year olds aren't leaving because there are no jobs, they are leaving because the schools suck, and there are no jobs because there are no talented 25-34 year olds here (present company in the 25-34 range excluded, of course).

After I'm guessing you left, someone specifically asked about the school situation, and they said that, of course, this is a problem for urban areas everywhere, not just Providence.

However, the difference in 25-35 retention was still quite dramatic still between Providence and the other New England cities...

I don't see how they think the Promenade will thrive without those connections... Before the presentation I asked Katherine about what their thoughts were regarding connecting the Jewelry District to Narragansett Landing along Allens and Eddy (the crossings under the relocated 195 interchange). She didn't have an answer. I thought that was why they were here. 

Agreed on all fronts, and I don't see why they don't get those things...

Any idiot can redraw the streetgrid between the JD and Downcity, the difficult connections need the vision. She also said the Hospital had been asking about it.

The 195 land proposals weren't really any different than anything already proposed by the city and DOT. I understand this was a broad stroke kind of presentation and a first blush on an ongoing creative process. But again, any idiot can reconnect the streetgrid, any idiot can propose ground level retail with mised use upper floors, any idiot could propose tall buildings near the core getting smaller as you move out. The things I want to hear from planners is how to target development uses to create a vibrant streetlife and a good flow of uses throughout the city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also agreed. There was a real lack of creativity, vision, and imagination. I couldn't help but feel talking to them that they had a good "map" sense of the city, but not a great "on the ground" feeling.

- Garris

[ArtInRuins]

After reading all yur comments, I hope to go tonight (I missed yesterday) and get them to answer some of these specific questions. Height, density, open space, zoning, etc... Thanks guys. I think the City should just hire UP people to redesign the city.

[Cotuit]

Cotuit, last night would of been perfect to wear an urbanplanet.org T-shirt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The journalist who wrote today's story in the Journal spoke to me. I told her about UP and she took my name and number. Perhaps she'll do a follow up story of some sort.

I certainly encourage everyone here to contact Sasaki and the city with your thoughts and ideas.

[CtownMikey]

will this wondrful vision for providence have any renderings by the time this conference is up?

[Cotuit]

will this wondrful vision for providence have any renderings by the time this conference is up?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They won't have any specific renderings, only wide area planning proposals. Their mission is not to get down to the actual building level of design.

[Garris]

They won't have any specific renderings, only wide area planning proposals. Their mission is not to get down to the actual building level of design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was one of their problems. Their renders had these enormous orange blocks over developable space that people mistook for actual buildings, so the Fox Point people saw these big orange blocks there and flipped.

It was very hard to see the impact of what they were suggesting (was it Buff Chase who spoke and brought that up?). Then again, since there was really nothing earthshattering, I don't know how much renderwise was necessary.

I don't want to make it sound like there is anything wrong with this plan, it's just that it seems very limited in scope and timid in application.

- Garris

PS: I was glad to see the turnout was so good, over 200 people last night.

[Cotuit]

That was one of their problems.  Their renders had these enormous orange blocks over developable space that people mistook for actual buildings, so the Fox Point people saw these big orange blocks there and flipped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would have helped if instead of throwing out numbers, they used actual buildings in the city that we all know as reference for the heights they were discussing. The only instance in which they did that was to compare the very tallest buildings around the Ship Street Landing to the Superman Building, the city's tallest, of course people flipped out.

How much better it would have been to say, "these buildings would be about the height of the Turks Head Building, these buildings would be about the height of the Peerless Building..." Use buildings we all know and love to communicate the ideas of scale.

The Fox's Point horrors could have been diffused a bit by calling for 90' buildings, rather than 100'. One-Hundred is a trigger number for people, once it hits 100' they just hear one-hundred, feet, stories, it's all the same.

[foxpointer]

My two favorite comments from last night:

1. "There are no high-rises on the waterfront in Chicago."

2. (w/ ref. to Fox Point) "It would be so nice to have a restaurant there, where you could look out over the water and eat a lobster, in jeans..."

I also invented a new word(s) for the token social justice activist whose 'question' rambled for nearly four minutes.... it was either a "questionfesto" or a "manifestion".

[foxpointer]

It was very hard to see the impact of what they were suggesting (was it Buff Chase who spoke and brought that up?).

No, that was Buff Chase impersonator. Buff left at the beginning of the Q and A. The guy kind of looked like him.

[Cotuit]

1. "There are no high-rises on the waterfront in Chicago."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The person in front of me was very perplexed by that statement. And if you were looking at the presenter... her eyes nearly fell out.

I also invented a new word(s) for the token social justice activist whose 'question' rambled for nearly four minutes.... it was either a "questionfesto" or a "manifestion".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Questionfesto, that's the one, submit it to Websters.

[Lova]

Tonight's meeting should be at Tortillas, so I can participate.

The economic presentaion was by far the most intersting, followed by the Dorrance Park and the fact that they don't like tall buldings.

If that audience was a fair representation of our demographic, the city is sunk. I don't blame the blue hairs for coming out, but I'm suprised they were there in force. This shows why it's so hard to fight the suburban-style constrictions being clamped onto downtown: old ladies have no use for nightlife, motorcycles, late night pizza..... If they want to build an energetic powercenter of the fabled 24-34 yr old business founders, the old folks have to move over, and the city has to understand that they are not the future of the city. The future is raucus.

The gateways into the City are the Thurbers and the Charlse St curves on 95. Thats when you see the landmarks and know you've arrived. When I take someone to Prov from out of town, as I come around Thurbers I do my best Carmina Burana as the core towers come into view. More towers = better impact and sense of place.

[Cotuit]

If that audience was a fair representation of our demographic, the city is sunk. I don't blame the blue hairs for coming out, but I'm suprised they were there in force. This shows why it's so hard to fight the suburban-style constrictions being clamped onto downtown: old ladies have no use for nightlife, motorcycles, late night pizza..... If they want to build an energetic powercenter of the fabled 24-34 yr old business founders, the old folks have to move over, and the city has to understand that they are not the future of the city. The future is raucus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Someone please remind me when my hair turns blue that the youth are the future, please. The blue hairs are a problem (excuse me while I paint with broad brushes for a second). Old people vote, and the mayor and the city council know that. We're trying to build the city to be attractive to an age group that is very small in our city to begin with, and on top of that, has historically low voter turn out. So even though Deller from planning and the mayor seem to understand the wants and needs of the 25-35 set and how to build a city to attract and retain them (witness recent statements out of the planning office regarding more height), if they want to keep their jobs, they have to make the blue hairs happy.

The mayor has a lot of work ahead of him educating the older people why there are no trees along 95 in Providence (and why there shouldn't be), why tall buildings are not a threat, why young people are important to the city's economy, and how the city will protect the elderly population's quality of life, while catering to a younger crowd. Tough job, but he needs the youth to build the economy as much as he needs the old peoples' votes.

The gateways into the City are the Thurbers and the Charlse St curves on 95. Thats when you see the landmarks and know you've arrived. When I take someone to Prov from out of town, as I come around Thurbers I do my best Carmina Burana as the core towers come into view. More towers = better impact and sense of place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right on, without a skyline, I might as well be welcoming someone to Cranston (not that there's anything wrong with Cranston, well actually, yes there is )