urban980

This statement doesn't make much sense because it can apply to anything (ie college, health care, I-485). And since when did CATS say they can't fund rail?

Many of the arguments I see here against transit in Charlotte are very similar to the same arguments made by members of the John Locke Foundation (a Raleigh based conservative think tank). Any tax on any thing is evil to these folks and their followers (especially a tax for mass transit). Their biggest argument is 'not enough people are riding to justify the cost' so why build rail lines? The answer to that question is simple. I-485 has not shortened the drive time from Uptown to Pineville. Why? Because development follows roads. Development also follows rail lines, but with a slightly different outcome. The rail line will not get congested and be forced to slow down due to added development. That is why rail is now being built in Charlotte. We have learned that roads are not the cure all. In time, rail ridership in Charlotte will be far greater than it is today. It is very short sighted to look at today's ridership of an unfinished line segment and say let's stop this rail thing all together and go back to building more roads.

The light rail line is responsible for where businesses are built. So are freeway exits. That is what smart planning and transit is all about. Directing growth in a smart way is what LYNX has done in less than 2 years of service. You can make the same claim for I-77, I-485, and just about any freeway in this state. None of our roads have a 'cost effectiveness number' yet we all can agree that we need them. The true cost of roads "ie cars, insurance, gas, needed land, air quality, repair is just as expensive to society as mass transit (if not more). Besides, how many people would travel I-77 if it only existed from uptown to Carowinds Blvd? And it was only open from 6 am to 1 am? And it had a $1.50 one way toll to use it? My guess is that I-77 would be deserted. My point is the current rail line is no different than an incomplete I-77 with toll booths. We must complete the line first before we make snap judgement calls about the ridership. I live on the south side side of town (Tyvola Station) and I know I would ride the train more often if it went to NODA. Heck, if it went to UNCC, my usage of the train would double! Many folks have crosstown commutes that the current LYNX line doesn't serve. The city and CATS know this and that is why there is a debate about which line should be built next. They (the city and county officials) understand just how important it is to complete the LYNX line so we can serve those crosstown commuters that we are currently missing out on. Here is an interesting PBS video about Charlotte's LYNX line. I think some of you guys might like it (or hate it). Either way, I found it to be quite interesting. http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/507/index.html

I would say it is in large part due to Atlanta and Charlotte being the two largest CSAs in the southeast outside of Florida. At any rate, hats off to Raleigh for making the number one spot on growth!!! This trend should continue in Raleigh thanks to the relatively low unemployment rate.

Hopefully, the planned 2nd Ward High School in Uptown will solve this problem. As for the towers, Vue looks like it is close to 24 floors now!!! This tower could top out before the end of the year!!! I hope it doesn't turn into another Park Condo building.

Not only that, those spires would have given Charlotte four 200 meter towers (BofA, Wells-chovia LOL!!!, Hearst, and Vue). Oh well, maybe on the next tower (whenever that will be?). Now that I've thought about it, how tall were the spires? If they were 25 feet tall or shorter, the building would still reach 200 meters!!!

That has alot to do with higher fuel cost (asphalt and dyed low sulfur diesel used by construction equipment). Now that fuel has come down in price, I expect to see a drop in construction cost. Only time will tell. Regardless of the price of construction or the line itself, I think we are all getting a little too "side tracked" LOL. The bottom line is that Raleigh could have built a well planned streetcar line in the downtown area with the $120 million TTA blew on a very costly Durham/Raleigh link. Today, TTA owns a rail corridor and probably pays a hefty property tax to the tune of millions per year. To me, that is money that could have actually had trains running in DT Raleigh years ago. Also, what about a special tax on new development along the streetcar line? That plus the sell of TTA's failed rail's land could certainly build a streetcar line from downtown to NCSU's campus. Just a thought.

I re-read my post and I am sorry for the error. I honestly meant to say 1 block per week (not one mile). At any rate, here is an interesting link that answers pretty much all streetcar questions (including start up cost). In my post, I said the average cost of a streetcar line is just under $20 million per mile. This link says that it is nearly $25 million per mile. Some sources say that the average cost is only $15 million per mile, but I think that is a stretch for the average cost. http://www.cabq.gov/transit/about-us/proje...-streetcar#Cost

Agreed!!! Those are all very realistic expenses associated with any transit line. However, the average street car line seems to be slightly less than $20 million per mile. $10 million dollars per mile is the lowest I have seen (that is why I stated in some cases they can cost $10 million per mile). Just do a quick goggle search of any recent US street car line and you will see what I am talking about. Streetcars and historic trolleys seem to be the cheapest rail option available. TTA should start quickly on the cheapest form of rail (ie trolleys or streetcars).

That is the cost of the more expensive type of streetcar route (ie LRV on the street). The average street car route (modern day street cars, not LRV) is only about 15 to 20 million per mile. A cheap line can be as little as 10 million per mile. As for the current bus routes' lack of ridership, you do have a point. The Feds will want to see the bus ridership numbers. I guess the best thing to do is use local money for the DT streetcar line. I think a two mile line could easily be done without money from the Feds and will give TTA much needed credibility in the process.

I have heard that the Vue's developer is in the same boat as Novare. Meaning they have an extensive history of building high rise condos throughout the Nation, and with that comes good credit. Much like Novare, they can pretty much build an empty building and pray. This is only what I have heard. I personally know little about the Vue's developer. Also, their building caters to borderline rich folks. In some cases, high end buildings don't need as large of a percentage of units sold to make a profit as low to moderate income projects do. Also, many buyers are not closing on any condo that has not been built yet (and do you blame them?). If 50% of this building is sold in the middle of a recession before the building's completion, that is a good sign. Once this building is complete, I think it will reach 85% sold rather quickly.

This is very true. Also new street car tracks can be laid for as little as $10 million per mile (in some cases) and at a speed of 1 mile per week. This is why I say set aside 75 to 100 million dollars and give the people a DT/Central Raleigh streetcar route. That would at least give some credibility to TTA after the failed attempt (as of now TTA's credibility is "suspect" at best). It would also help DT Raleigh compete against suburban areas like North Hills and Crabtree for new retail and new residents. As for the land they (TTA) currently owns, I would love to see how much money in property taxes TTA is paying for that land. I bet it is in the millions annually. By 2024, they (TTA) might end up paying for that land twice thanks to property taxes. Again, TTA should cut their losses and cash some of that land in for streetcar building dollars. Few folks in the Triangle are going to take TTA seriously if trains are not running soon.

I agree!!! I think some folks tend to forget that 90% of us are working. Even during the Great Depression (1929-1940), 70% of the US was employed. Charlotte became NC's largest city during the Great Depression too!!! From 1920 to 1940 Charlotte's population grew by almost 50%. Even at our worst, we are a strong country when it comes to folks working. With that said, if the folks building the Vue have the financing, I don't blame them one bit for building quickly. If I had the $$$, I would be doing the same thing right now. The best part about a recession is knowing that things always pick back up. The Vue could come on the market at the beginning of the 2011 boom. It could actually be perfect timing on their part. I was at Harris Teeter (Fifth and Poplar) yesterday, and I think the project is close to the 19th floor. I did not actually count the floors however. I am only guessing from a quick glance.

If they have to pay back the Feds, they (TTA) will likely lose money on this transaction. I seriously doubt TTA will get back what they paid in this economy. It seems to me that TTA should ask the Feds to allow them to sell the land and use that money for a different transit project (ie streetcars in DT Raleigh). That money should not sit invested in a rail corridor that will not come to fruition until 2024.

Which brings me to my next gripe with TTA. Didn't they spend close to $120 million on the first plan that never got built? I am not aware of any other transit agency that spent $120 million and got nothing. That money could have built a 4 or 5 mile streetcar network in DT Raleigh. That streetcar line would have been something TTA could have used to sell the public on a one cent tax. Charlotte's pathetic little trolley (that started out being pulled by an ugly green diesel powered rail car LOL) was a $25 million grassroots effort that essentially paved the way for the light rail line. TTA should give DT Raleigh streetcars next year then ask for the penny tax in two years.

This is my only problem with STAC's plan. $80M/yr won't cut it (hence the reason why they are waiting until 2024 to build the first line). There is no way around a full penny tax in the South. As Monsoon has stated, the South in general needs lots of subsidies to make transit work. Raleigh is no exception to this rule. I feel that STAC has underestimated the cost of building and operating rail. Their plans are quite impressive, but I am 99.9999% sure that 2025 and beyond will cost TTA nearly $100 million per mile to build or better. Even a transit tax that brings in $120 million per year won't build much in 15 years. The Triangle requires rail lines that are longer than most midsized cities. As one poster stated, a line from Durham to Raleigh would be ideal. Such a line should not be light rail (light rail is too slow). DMUs (the most likely choice for such a route) would be better, but I think a 70 MPH heavy rail line should link Durham and Raleigh. Bringing Raleigh and Durham closer together with a high speed electric train would almost make the two "one city" for the pedestrian commuter. I-40 will never make these two cities one. Neither would a slow train. The train must be fast in order to attract more than 15,000 riders per day. Such a line would need at least 30,000 riders per day just to be considered feasible.

^^^One question. If rail existed in Raleigh right now, how many people do you think would ride it a day? If the line was only 10 miles long, I would say about 7,500 passengers a day (if that). My reason for saying this is because 10 miles won't do squat in the Triangle. You need at least 20 miles of rail to take people to major employment centers in the Triangle. Even a 20 mile line would carry less than 15,000 passengers per day. The feds are not going to fund a system that carries less than 1,000 passengers per mile at a cost of nearly 40-60 million per mile to build (the going rate for light rail construction). Don't think for one minute that I disagree with you. I am with you 100% on building trains sooner than later. I just know that Raleigh is not ready for trains now. If trains existed now, they would be a failure for the next 10 years and would likely never expand due to the public viewing trains as a waste of money. Besides, a good bus system is great just like trains!!! I maybe alone here, but I think that STAC has got it right this time. Let's improve overall transit usage with better bus service then build rail. That is the way to do it. I know this is "urban" planet, but some times we have to crawl towards urbanity before we can run. In the next 10 years, the Triangle should focus on building up high density corridors for the trains. This will improve ridership. Again, I am not against rail (heck, I use rail everyday). I am just about doing it right.

Allow me to explain. I don't think the Triangle is ready for rail due to the area's multi city layout. I do think Raleigh can support rail in about 10 years as the city grows. Many folks seem to want rail now. That is why I suggested a 1 cent tax to have trains up and running by 2017. Three years premature is not that big of a deal if you ask me. Without a full 1 cent tax, it will be close to 2025 before trains are running. My position is build the trains now (I like trains better). However, I know the feds will not approve the Triangle for funding right now. I think some of the posts above said it best. Raleigh's bus service needs to improve first before the area even thinks about investing in trains. I think trains often get more credit than the buses. A good bus system can carry millions of people per year. In most cities (with buses and trains), the buses carry more folks than the trains carry. This is why Raleigh must improve the bus ridership before trying to build rail lines. If Raleigh is not patient enough to wait for bus ridership to improve, then I say tax yourselves a full 1 cent and build the trains without the feds' money.

Hmmmmm? This is a new one on me, but it makes sense.

Good question and a good point. However, all of those modes of mass transit (combined) in the "Triangle" have fewer riders than most midsized cities' single bus system. Does this make sense? It would be the same as asking the feds to fund a train in Atlanta because Cobb county transit has "X" amount of riders. It would be the same as asking the feds to fund a train in Charlotte because Gastonia transit has "X" amount of riders. I realize that the Triangle is a multi city region, but that is the number one problem. The area's layout will cause rail lines to be longer distances, hence more costly. Ridership is how the feds justify cost. The bottomline is the Triangle does not have the ridership to justify the cost. Here is the solution. Triangle leaders need to push the state to allow counties to levy a full 1 cent transit tax. That is the ticket to getting trains built faster without federal money. That is what Denver did. They simply voted to tax themselves more. That is what the Triangle should do. If the Triangle does not go this route, the trains will be running when my son graduates college (he is in 1st grade now LOL). Here is an old (but good) transit debate from WRAL. They talked about the layout difficulty of trains in the Triangle. You guys should really watch this video. It gives you quick insight into the minds of the people responsible for getting transit moving. This is a 20 minute plus video, but it is a good one. http://www.wral.com/news/local/politics/video/2389596/

I agree with the highlighted statement. I am sure CATS will do just that if they found out the NE corridor (or any corridor) was deemed too costly. If you remember, the current LYNX line changed alot from concept to reality. Much of the changes were cost saving and traffic saving measures. I am sure the same will happen to the NE corridor. CATS has said all along that the NE corridor would most likely open in segments. The first segment being from Uptown (9th street) to Noda. Density (or lack thereof) has always been a concern to CATS when it came to building a rail line to UNCC. Even today, that line goes through some very sprawled low density areas. I still say the ridership will be high enough to satisfy the feds, but the feds' density based ridership formula will not show the true ridership potential. Let's not forget that the same formula missed the current LYNX ridership by more than 50%. It is safe to say that the federal formula is so conservative that it is just flat out wrong. Unfortunately, it is the federal formula that CATS must adhere to and not CATS own formula. This is the only reason why the NE corridor is in danger of not getting federal money. With that said, CATS needs to find other sources of funding for this badly needed line just incase the feds say no. They (CATS and the city of Charlotte) are working on getting that "back up" money as I type.

How can you justify building trains quickly if the current bus ridership is not up to snuff? I am with you in wanting trains faster, but let's be realistic here. I took the time to look up Raleigh's bus ridership, and the numbers are quite sad to be honest (even with the current growth in ridership, the numbers are still quite sad). The feds are not going to give money to Raleigh for trains when there are too many other cities competing for the same money and have already beefed up their buses. Raleigh is atleast 10 years away from being rail worthy in terms of current transit usage. Before I am roasted here and taken the wrong way, let me explain my position. Most cities with new rail startups already had an established high bus ridership. Those bus riders are more than half of the rail systems' riders. Since bus riders are a fairly accurate way to predict possible train riders, it is fair to assume that Raleigh won't have very many train riders for now. Again, I have come to this conclusion after looking at Raleigh's bus ridership (which is not very good). STAC knows that ridership is an issue and has wisely chosen to beef up the buses first then go for rail after about 10 years or so. They may be criticized by some for doing things this way but they know that a push for rail now would fail again. Ridership (or lack thereof) would be the reason for such failure yet again.

You are correct!!! I remember this time quite well. However, 1984 was the year that a rail line from UNCC to downtown was first envisioned. This was no doubt in response to the newly opened MARTA line in Atlanta. DC's Metro was also relatively new back then. I am not 100% sure, but logic would indicate that Atlanta prompted Charlotte's first talks about rail in the early 80s. Again, you are correct about the fact that Charlotte did not actually have a plan for the NE corridor until the 90s when Raleigh started planning. However, the lack of an actual plan for the NE corridor before the 90s does not mean it was never envisioned. At any rate, it is planned now and much anticipated I might add. It will also carry more passengers per mile than the current LYNX line. The problem is can it carry double the passengers per mile? If it doesn't (being that it is double the cost of the south corridor it needs to have double the riders) the feds might give this the thumbs down. One thing that plays in Mecklenburg's favor is this county voted for the winners (Perdue and Obama). Regardless of one's political views, you always want to be the county that voted in the winner LOL!!! Two liberals that Meck voted in could mean more transit dollars for CATS. The record ridership for CATS coupled with the success of the LYNX makes approval for transit dollars much easier for Meck this time around than the first time.

Without going too far into details lol, I think you kinda missed my point in my previous post. Let me try to simplify it. Charlotte has long envisioned a rail link between Uptown and UNCC. The south corridor was built first because the southside of town has the highest density and highest projected ridership. The density equals higher ridership theory is flawed. The highest transit ridership is Charlotte's poorest neighborhoods. These neighborhoods exist in somewhat low density wooded areas yet their transit ridership (bus ridership) is quite high. The NE corridor will go through poor areas of town and will also have more points of interest than the south corridor line. I am aware of the 35,000 projected ridership by 2030, but we all know that is a very conservative number because the feds' formula for predicting ridership was designed to be conservative. That is why the LYNX beat its projected 9,100 number on its worst month. Ridership is falling, but that is to be expected in the Winter and with lower gas prices. I can promise you this system won't fall below 10,000 daily riders. Heck, it probably won't ever fall below 13,000 again. My point is that the NE corridor will introduce an already heavy bus riding area of Charlotte to rail. CATS and the MTC is pushing the NE corridor very hard. They are also working on a plan for more transit funding (including a plan to bring streetcars to Charlotte faster too). As for taxation, Charlotte already lobbied for the right to tax Mecklenburg citizens for the current 1/2 cent tax. If Charlotte must ask for permission to levy more taxes, we will have company this time. Raleigh officials will be there asking for the same thing (for the same reasons). In all honesty, Charlotte may not ever have to ask. Raleigh is in the process of asking for money (1/2 cent tax and a $7 vehicle registration). If Raleigh gets it, my guess is that Charlotte could get it too.

Hold on. Wait a second here. Ironically at the 35 second mark of this video they said Raleigh only has 35 buses. I know many folks want trains now, but I like the fact that buses are the STAC's first priority. To my knowledge, Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill combined has less than 15 million annual transit riders. The feds will not be impressed with these numbers at all. The bus ridership needs to improve first so that projected rail ridership will be high. By 2020, we should have a good idea of how well rail would do in the Triangle once the bus system has improved.