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I think the State report is overestimating the willingness of Southside residents to drive an hour across the HRBT to Newport News just get to a High-Speed Rail station. High-Speed Rail would be nice (as always), but the more serious problem is the lack of intra-regional transportation once you get off the train. If in Hampton Roads, your options when you arrive by train from DC or New York are HRT buses and taxis, say good-bye to a stream of visitors and business travelers arriving by train. On the other hand, if you take the train, currently from Newport News, to DC, Baltimore, New York, or Boston, in each case you disembark in a vibrant urban center, with a plethora of transportation options available to you to get to your intended destination. You can even walk to many downtown locations; good luck trying that here. The Peninsula alternative for High-Speed Rail would benefit every metro along the Northeast Corridor more than it'd benefit Hampton Roads, as it would make it easier to leave Hampton Roads, but not any easier to arrive here. Not only does the Peninsula lack a proper Central Business District (Patrick Henry-Oyster Point? Coliseum?) that could host a station of such caliber, but its transportation links to the other two-thirds of the metro's population are notoriously bad! At least the Southside option would connect to the outside world with Downtown Norfolk, provided they can get the tracks across the Eastern Branch of the Elizabeth River near Harbor Park. (Sorry, train is delayed 20 minutes because drawbridge is open...) It'd also connect to the Tide Starter Line, allowing travel to a number of points of interests in Norfolk (and hopefully, eventually Virginia Beach). The ideal solution would be High-Speed Rail to either the Southside or the Peninsula AND a robust commuter rail connection between the Southside and the Peninsula. Think above-ground DC Metro; to shuttle people across the Harbor. For this reason, all attempts should be made to persuade State and Federal agencies that such an intra-region connection is necessary to properly serve our disjointed metro. Until that is possible, the alternative must be chosen that comes closest to providing the level of service that the area needs, and that is the Southside option; not because it's the more populated area of the metro, but because it has better multi-modal connections with the most points of interests in the entirety of Hampton Roads.

I'm really glad Brussels was brought up earlier; I hail from Hungary and have grown up riding mass transit for most of my life, and it surprises me that solutions routinely used in Europe and others parts of the world are thought impossible here. Just a simple example: earlier in the thread, whether light rail could travel through Ghent feasibly was debated, but it's a fairly common occurrence for light rail / trams to share a lane with road traffic, where it obeys signals just like any other vehicle. This solution is often used for dense urban environments where there's no space to give the train a fully dedicated right-of-way... which is exactly the situation in Ghent. Light rail on Colley, or a lesser street like Manteo is indeed doable, it's just that it requires a little out-of-the box thinking. But of course, Hampton Roads is not Western Europe, and this is especially apparent with the area's development patterns, and the difference in density. Investment in transit is admirable, but the average citizen needs to be able to get to work and back home, to the movies, to the nearest mall, and to the nearest casual dining restaurant without using their car, or using their car only to drive to a Park-and-Ride lot. Speaking of Park-and-Ride lots, this concept needs to be expanded into what other urban areas often call "Transit Centers", and it has been described with regard to Brussels a couple posts prior: destinations unto themselves; not just a place where you drive to park your car to subsequently ride the light rail or a bus, but also the site of a restaurant, a coffee shop, a convenience store, and the like, not just a hodgepodge of developments, but clearly part of the same locale: the station. The vicinity of these transit centers should be defined by transit-oriented development. The big problem with the Tide alignment east of NSU is that it stays inconveniently far away from major destinations: Military Circle Mall, Greenwich Road Office Park, Norfolk Industrial Park, Sentara Leigh Hospital; therefore those stations are merely connections to the much less popular bus system, and their traffic will be disappointingly low. Transit-oriented development is the solution: make the stations relevant by development, increasing departures and arrivals. Since every TOD-friendly area east of NSU is also immediately adjacent to an I-264 exit, an immense opportunity exists to develop an urban backbone for Norfolk. But another thing is different between Europe and here: European nations are used to high taxes, that in turn, pay for a wealth of public services, healthcare, enviable schools, and excellent infrastructure. The prevailing mentality here, on the other hand, is that taxes are evil, and that the government mismanages public funds, and therefore everything should be left as-is. Even though this area is dominated by automobile use, this spend-nothing, build-nothing attitude extends to roads as well. The private sector can often offer a quick-benefit solution, but will ultimately siphon money out of our pockets in the long run. Of course, most of us who frequent these forums know what needs to be done, but until we can convince the vocal and politically influential naysayers (more than half of the General Assembly seems to represent them), most of what this area needs will never be built.

I hope the city will be creative rather than conservative with establishing a route for the Naval Station extension. Rumor has it that they've been eyeing Redgate Ave immediately next to Norfolk Southern's rail yards as a route through Ghent, but that'd miss the Colley/21st activity center completely. Manteo Street/Newport Ave would be a better route in serving major activity centers.

I am quite pleased with Va Beach's recent Pembroke Area Implementation Plan... I hope they will keep that fully in mind as they conduct this new study. One station near the vicinity of the I-264 Independence Blvd exit should be developed as a Transit Center: offering plentiful Park-and-Ride spaces in a multi-level parking facility (with preferably ground floor retail), as well as move the HRT bus hub at Pembroke Mall to this new location. A redesign of the I-264 Independence Blvd interchange is due anyway, and this Transit Center could capture drivers from eastern Va Beach, and both North and South along Independence Blvd (and Holland Rd), while simultaneously serve as the primary station for Town Center. The right-of-way of the Tide Extension is nearly perfect if some smart planning is done: it's right between Va Beach Blvd and I-264, if sufficient redevelopment initiatives are put in place in the vicinity of planned stations, Virginia Beach can create a really strong multi-modal transportation corridor along its east-west spine. I am hoping, though, that the line will deviate from the Norfolk Southern alignment east of London Bridge Road. Serving AICUZ-incompatible land around Oceana would be a mistake, even if the line offers a tempting straight shot to the beach. The line could, east of London Bridge Road, could travel in the median of Laskin Rd, which could finally lose its confusing service lanes. After properly serving the Hilltop Commercial Area, just east of Winwood Rd the line can travel in the median of I-264 to Birdneck Rd, then serve the Convention Center and travel to the Oceanfront on 19th Street.

Does this look safe to everyone? Pictures from Metromont's new precast garage near Foreman Field:

Good point, I did pretty much forget about the Port of Virginia expansion Though it'd be interesting to have nice juicy facts on where exactly that freight would be headed, I can't help but think that such a project would be best served with a highway connection in the direction of 460/Wakefield/Petersburg, as opposed to facilities feeding traffic towards the good-old Coliseum. VA-164, which is the closest accessible higway in proximity to the new terminal, could be extended to provide a much-needed western spoke of the HR road system. It's still cheaper than the Third Crossing

The problem with the Third Crossing I-564 - MMMBT connection is that is that it's an inconvenient detour from the 'straight-line' I-64 HRBT path for locals and visitors alike. It would link I-564 with I-664 that ties back into I-64 at the Coliseum, creating a chokepoint in case traffic levels are already high on both corridors (such as a hurricane evacuation. They might wish to look into setting up contraflow to keep the I-64 and the I-664-originated traffic on opposing sides). The main trunk of traffic is I-64, and unless you put tolls on the existing HRBT or place menacing signage to manipulate people, the bulk of the Third Crossing's traffic will be freight from NIT. HRBT is notorious for its back-ups. NIT-originated freight when traveling inland tries to avoid HRBT altogether, thereby clogging up Hampton Boulevard and the inadequate Midtown Tunnel. If HRBT and its environs were to be expanded with 2 more lanes in each direction, it would alleviate back-ups and present itself one again as a viable alternative for inland-bound freight. And, like I said, locals and visitors won't diverge from a shorter path that is signed to be the same route anyway, except when forced to (e.g. accidents or tolls). Throw in a Midtown Tunnel expansion and a 58-264 tie-in, the area's traffic woes can be lessened the sensible way. Sure, the coolness factor of the Third Crossing is pretty high, I admit, but as someone who is often faced with the question of how to get from ODU to the Peninsula, the Third Crossing would be an expensive and ultimately inadequate solution just by itself.

Agreed. As I've stated before, ODU and 21st Street are well within bus reach of EVMS, and the planned new/adjusted lines will try to provide connections to the Tide a bit more effectively. Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I'd love to come up with numbers, but every time I've ridden bus #2 (at varying times on weekdays), the overwhelming majority of riders disembarks by Little Creek Road and doesn't actually make it to the Naval Base... While I agree with the Portsmouth connection, it is then surprising how officials claim to favor an extension to ODU and NSN. One wonders if they are stuck in the era of drawing straight lines on a map, and plopping stations at the larger intersections. In all reality, the starter line will probably be here to stay in its unaltered form for quite a while, which then brings me to my next point: Military Highway Station on Curlew Drive. Oddly enough, the Military Highway Corridor District Comprehensive Plan discusses the prospect of Transit-Oriented Development only as a possible future item that they might spend some time planning for

Killam has the advantage of being a nearly deserted street, equidistant from Hampton Boulevard and Colley Ave. However, an additional over/underpass would be required for the Lambert's Point railroad tracks and the continuation both north and south of Killam would still be problematic. A visual presentation of the Hampton/Colley routings:

From an ODU's point of view, the most advantageous path for the Light Rail would be down Hampton Boulevard. Between 38th Street and Bolling Avenue, the road can be widened, but north of Bolling are private homes close to the road and south of 38th there are only 4 or 5 lanes available and not enough space for widening. The Redgate/Powhatan route would make little sense. Too close to the waterfront and the rail yard to provide ample coverage. Also, ODU's axis is expanding east, not west, and the campus is pleasantly walkable from the Elizabeth River to Killam Ave.

You mean Redgate Ave? It's the access road for the NS Classification Yard. It's also too far from both Hampton Boulevard and Colley to produce any serious ridership. Added: Hampton Boulevard is 2x2 lanes between EVMS and 25th Street, 2x2+1 middle lane between 25th and 38th Street, and 2x3 lanes + median between 38th and International Boulevard. Its capacity is really needed to handle not only the ~20% trucks, but also traffic around ODU, to the Midtown Tunnel, and to/from the Naval Base.

In Germany, UK, France, Poland, Hungary, etc, it's common for trams in space-constrained environments to share the right-of-way with vehicles. While the concept is nearly foreign to North America, it has been done elsewhere; the light rail's signals are then synchronized with roadway signals and it effectively behaves as any other road-based vehicle for that stretch of road. That could be a viable solution for Colley Ave / Larchmont Crescent all the way up, given those streets' low traffic compared to neighboring Hampton Boulevard. It would discourage through traffic that does not frequent the businesses anyway, and encourage walkability along that corridor, which would be beneficial for Ghent and 21st Street and could serve as a catalyst in revitalizing Northern Colley / Park Place. However, I agree that a line to the Airport would be more important than an extension to ODU and onwards to the Naval Base -- ODU's four or five bus stops ("standard bus stops", not "HRT-stops-on-every-corner-bus-stops") away from the EVMS Station, while the Naval Base can also be reached through Bus 2 in the existing HRT system, and most of its usage is not Naval Base-related (personal experience).

That image explains why the Silverleaf P+R makes sense. I wonder, are there any [public] usage statistics for that and the related express line?

Yes, the meeting was entirely overhyped and underwhelming (I was the young fellow on the right who asked two questions -- both of which went unanswered until I got to talk to the project manager). Now, before I say anything else, I attend ODU, and work for ODU, so obviously I'd like to see the Tide stop here eventually. The problem is, until the Third Crossing gets built, Hampton Boulevard will need the 2x3 lane capacity, and there isn't enough space in the median to run the Light Rail there. However, two blocks to the east, Colley Avenue/Jamestown Crescent offers a good alternate route. This way, the line can be extended through the EVMS campus to reach Colley, then share the right-of-way and lanes with traffic through the entire lenght of Colley and Jamestown Crescent. Then comes the problematic part: sharing road surface with Hampton Boulevard, so perhaps the best solution here is to move the existing road as far west as possible and dismantle the median (minimal loss, it's rarely present for those couple blocks). The Light Rail could be constructed east of the road, which will enable the construction of a separate bridge to the east of the current Hampton Boulevard bridge. Between there bridge and Terminal Boulevard, the two options are to either run it in the median (which would work, save the need for turn lanes to Terminal Blvd), or to run it east of Hampton Boulevard with the median removed/decreased. North of Terminal Blvd, it's possible to run it in the median and decrease the number of roadway lanes if needed (which may impact some turn lanes). For practical purposes, given the timeline of this extension, the Hampton Boulevard Overpass might already be in place; it'd be nice if that had provisions for the light rail. The path's advantage would be leaving Hampton Boulevard unobstructed for roadway traffic, as well as being a near-even bisection of that peninsula of Norfolk, thus providing a more even coverage. Colley's shops in Ghent and the 21st Street Business District would greatly benefit from this route, and it would also enable the revitalization of Park Place and Colley Bay. The Central Hampton Boulevard Management Plan has provisions for extending open space from ODU to Colley, to the connection to ODU would remain; possibly ODU's shuttle system could be extended to stop at the light rail station somewhere around 45th and Colley. The project can also be completed with minimal disruption to existing buildings, and minimal loss of roadway capacity. ---- An extension to the Airport is similary important. The cheap way to get there would be to begin at Kempsville & Newtown, follow Kempsville Road to Virginia Beach Boulevard, then hug I-64 from the west once you pass under it. Then before you get to Military Highway, dip under it, then pass over the onramps and Robin Hood Road, then build it to the right of Military Highway and the middle of Azalea Gardens until you can get it across the water north of Norview. Of course, the above route wouldn't do anyone else but the Airport any good, so a more likely plan is to start at Harbor Park, follow Tidewater Ave, then Lafayette to Cheasapeke Blvd, then Norview to the Airport. This would neatly bisect the city Southwest to Northeast and give some cohesion to an important corridor that is seldom recognized as one. A spur could be built along Cheasapeke Blvd north, serving the Tidewater Drive industrial park and commercial district, as well as Ocean View. Southwards, the line could be extended from Harbor Park into Berkley/South Norfolk and Chesapeake.

I'm a new poster (but old lurker) here, but this is an excellent place for discussion (the PilotOnline posts don't cut it). Let me quote my post there: Don't get me wrong; I love right rail. I'm from Hungary, where I commuted to school by light rail and subway for a good while. It's just that Hampton Roads is notoriously suburban in its settlement patterns, and neither the current nor the future plans for the Tide account for this. Nonetheless, while the former NS right-of-way in Norfolk is an awkward placement, it's not nearly as bad in Va Beach: it comes a lot closer to Virginia Beach Boulevard than ever in Norfolk and is fortunately very close to the Town Center at Pembroke. Yet the HRT bus system would have to be organized to tie in with the Light Rail. The station at Witchduck isn't much use just by itself, only with additional transportation from the neighborhoods north and south of it. Similar to the station at Lynnhaven: excellent for getting to a handful of car dealerships, but too far to walk to Lynnhaven Mall. I think while I'd be certainly nice for the Tide to extend to the Oceanfront, all stations between Downtown Norfolk and the Beach should not be ignored. Without the buses transporting riders from adjacent neighborhoods to the stations, the system won't see much usage. In addition, the city should consider rezoning areas immediately adjacent to the stations to make the area walkable in the future: each station's vicinity, in an ideal world, would be a small community of mixed-use, mixed-income urban-style development with the station at its heart, allowing quick access to businesses (and jobs) along the light rail line.

I can confirm that they are definitely only storing equipment there, so it's a staging area for the second building, though it is the future site of the third building. The fourth one will be behind the Ted Constant Convocation Center, but both of them are far off in the future.