Triangle Regional Transit

[ChiefJoJo]

Frankly, I don't see any other opition than to modify and build on the original TTA plan. That may be a letdown for many forumers who think that a complete rework utilizing a virgin corridor would be the saving grace. Tunneling through the airport looks great on paper, but once you get into the logistics of the thing, it's a bust.

To utilize a non-rail, non-existing corridor is madness and failure waiting to happen. Putting together a contiguous corridor between Raleigh and Durham, without impeding on protected areas such as Umstead Park, the airport itself, and numerous wetlands is nigh unto impossible. If you could do it, the cost would be astronomical -- the land acquisition costs alone might surpass that of the rail design and construction. The only alternative to existing rail corridors is to split up the ROW with an existing freeway, or to eliminate a road altogether and replace it with a train. Anybody want to try to wrestle NC-54 away from the people who have already built on it? Or send condemnation notices to over half the businesses on US-70 to tell them they are now encroaching on a transit right-of-way?

It may not be everything to everybody, but the current alignment is the only way to go and stay within even light years of the original budget.

...

Again, the point that I have been trying to hammer home with the entire rail transit scenario is that you need to see what could/will be there, rather than what is there. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense at all. That is presumably Cherokee's bread and butter business, to see ugly ducks and to turn them into swans.

[orulz]

Continuing along recent discussion of funding our transit system,

There's no way we can present a plan that supports mostly future development and ask current residents to pay for it. It would never fly. So, a sales tax is out - at least until we have a skeletal transit system in place and enough development around it to make other people see the value.

The future for funding regional transit in RTP in the short term is TIFs. I've sometimes questioned why this wasn't being pursued when all TTA had was the rental car tax, but hopefully the power of this funding tool will be realized in the near future.

[orulz]

My plan would look something like this:

• 2013: The Town of Morrisville realizes how foolishly shortsighted they have been and decide to allow a transit station in their "downtown."

[monsoon]

The future for funding regional transit in RTP in the short term is TIFs. I've sometimes questioned why this wasn't being pursued when all TTA had was the rental car tax, but hopefully the power of this funding tool will be realized in the near future.

[Transplant]

As much as folks want to complain about it, no one is going to jump to ride to Triangle Town Center or Brier Creek.

[monsoon]

Without finding a way to tap into the huge employment base in RTP then any of the transit plans proposed for the area will most likely fail as there won't be enough ridership to justify it. If instead a transit system is built inside Raleigh and inside Durham, then it would fall outside the domain of the TTA, would it not, since that entity is only responsible for intercity travel within the Triangle. It would be up to either Raleigh or Durham to come up with their own systems and in today's climate that doesn't seem that possible though I admit I am not up on the local politics of the area.

I think the TTA Phase I should be built as it would be the backbone for other transit options to be built within the cities that would connect to it.

Development may or may not happen if transit is built. It requires planning from the cities in question to encourage development around these corridors. One only has to look at MARTA to see where development around transit stations can completely fail if this doesn't happen.

[ChiefJoJo]

I heard TTA boss David King speak on comonents of this new plan, and he emphasized that it is critical to make the plan regional in nature--in other words no separation of Durham from Chapel Hill from Raleigh, etc. There may be parts that are implemented piecemeal, but it will be a regional plan.

[sax184]

Without finding a way to tap into the huge employment base in RTP then any of the transit plans proposed for the area will most likely fail as there won't be enough ridership to justify it. If instead a transit system is built inside Raleigh and inside Durham, then it would fall outside the domain of the TTA, would it not, since that entity is only responsible for intercity travel within the Triangle. It would be up to either Raleigh or Durham to come up with their own systems and in today's climate that doesn't seem that possible though I admit I am not up on the local politics of the area.

I think the TTA Phase I should be built as it would be the backbone for other transit options to be built within the cities that would connect to it.

Development may or may not happen if transit is built. It requires planning from the cities in question to encourage development around these corridors. One only has to look at MARTA to see where development around transit stations can completely fail if this doesn't happen.

[ChiefJoJo]

Continuing along recent discussion of funding our transit system,

There's no way we can present a plan that supports mostly future development and ask current residents to pay for it. It would never fly. So, a sales tax is out - at least until we have a skeletal transit system in place and enough development around it to make other people see the value.

The future for funding regional transit in RTP in the short term is TIFs. I've sometimes questioned why this wasn't being pursued when all TTA had was the rental car tax, but hopefully the power of this funding tool will be realized in the near future.

[ncwebguy]

TTA should not be in the "downtown circulator" business -- DATA and CAT should be. They should be a circulator in place already. With all the development going on in both downtowns (CH already has one), not having a circulator in place by the end of 2008 will make traffic in the CBDs an issue. TTA's shuttles already serve as circulators in RTP. If they ran a fixed route that connected the employment centers to the lunch places -- 54/55, Miami/Alexander, Brier Creek -- ridership could rise.

The state fairgrounds make an ideal "park and ride" lot for DT Raleigh workers the 51 weeks the fair is not in town. Having weekday rush hour use and Carter-Finley and RBC Center "event use" on nights and weekends. If 40/Wade played their cards right, they could have created a modern day trolley park that included entertainment, shopping, dining and night life options. Raleigh had one in Bloomsbury Park, on the land that is now on/near Carolina Country Club. Although downtown boosters are hoping the center city will be that type of destination.

New local funding should come from real estate via three sources.

- Revenue sharing with Cherokee from proceeds of development at and near the stations.

- A TIF on land under and near stations not limited to Cherokee property. It would include the Duke Medical station to the west and future station areas up to downtown Wake Forest to the north/east.

- A higher impact fee charged on greenfield developement in all TTA "partner" counties. This would start with Wake and Durham counties. It would serve as the "carrot" for Orange, Johnston, Franklin, Chatam, and other counties to focus development near the rail corridors. And it would be a revenue stream that could get EasTrans online in less than 11 years. Developers would be allowed to turn family farms into cookie cutter subdivisions, but they'll need to pay for the honor.

The only tax increase would be to the impact fee. Even after last year's "increase" it is still low for the area. People would complain that they're being taxed for a train they won't ride, but really they're being taxed for water, sewer, infrastructure, etc. that only benefits them. The real estate lobby will pitch a fit, but it should be the cost of doing business here.

[monsoon]

.... What is likely to happen is over time, RTP employers will move closer to the rail stations, even if it means moving out of RTP.

[Jones_]

A promotional tip for the TTA that just occurred to me...I am sure quite obvious to you guys, but I think unstated in this manner....just like I-540 generally is put in first (or annouce concrete plans), and development follows, such is the intention with our rail project, put it in first, and development will follow. Political opposition, however we arrived at it, is there, and it seemed like this comparison undid part of the 'who will use it' argument, that is being discussed here currently. Financing and TIF's seems pretty interesting for the other major 'anti' argument counter punch.

[thewhister]

I agree. So, how many people will drive to a station to ride it to any of the current stops?

What are the attractions/employers within walking distance to these stations?

I'm sure I'd miss quite a few if I listed them, but passengers would need to take a bus (or a long walk >.5mi) to get most places people want to go. Almost all RTP employees would need to bus-it. Almost all of DT Raleigh's biggest employers along F-St would need to put in some good foot time.

Yes, development will follow if/when Mass transit is built.

I think the TTA should focus on DT Raleigh (including a trolley or other circulator) and DT Durham. Use some of the Phase I plans, and include RTP in Phase 2 or Phase 3. This would hopefully focus development in the Downtown districts, where it should be.

Before I get lit up because this is unrealistic, I understand it probably is.

[thewhister]

The state fairgrounds make an ideal "park and ride" lot for DT Raleigh workers the 51 weeks the fair is not in town. Having weekday rush hour use and Carter-Finley and RBC Center "event use" on nights and weekends. If 40/Wade played their cards right, they could have created a modern day trolley park that included entertainment, shopping, dining and night life options. Raleigh had one in Bloomsbury Park, on the land that is now on/near Carolina Country Club. Although downtown boosters are hoping the center city will be that type of destination.

[Transplant]

There are significant tax advantages to being located in RTP. I can't imagine that any company that is located there today would leave it just to place it's facility near a train station. It just isn't going to happen. The TTA needs to figure out how to serve the businesses that are in the park today. IBM did afterall, offer to donate land for a station near it's location.

[BobbyRobert]

I know this is off topic, could you elaborate on the tax advantages offered to RTP businesses? Could DT Raleigh/Durham offer similar advantages or are they related to the state provisions?

[Transplant]

I agree with metro that current RTP tenants are unlikely to relocate outside the park for transit. However, according to the Wake county tax assessor (http://www.raleigh-wake.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page&filename=data-financial-taxes.html) RTP tenants pay a marginally higher property tax rate than they would outside the park.

The tax status of property in RTP was discussed extensively in this thread on the Charlotte board (it was kinda off topic there as well) http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...=33109&st=0

[monsoon]

.....

Could Raleigh offer any corporation willing to relocate into DT a tax break?

[yankeeblue]

The only tax increase would be to the impact fee. Even after last year's "increase" it is still low for the area. People would complain that they're being taxed for a train they won't ride, but really they're being taxed for water, sewer, infrastructure, etc. that only benefits them. The real estate lobby will pitch a fit, but it should be the cost of doing business here.

[ncwebguy]

Great Idea - would that mean that we can eliminate Downtown parking decks and redevelop them? That would be great! Let the market dictact parking - not the municipal codes that are boilerplate to begin with.

Human behavior would say "downtown is 10 minutes away from the Fairgrounds - why park here? I will find that space near the office."

[DanRNC]

I emailed Ellie Kinnaird, the state rep for Orange and Person Counties, regarding the ongoing regional transit fiasco. She agreed with me that more road construction will not alleviate future traffic congestion in urban areas and pointed out that reps from rural regions don't give a flip about alternative transportation. She said she will bring up initiatives on a statewide basis to promote alternative transporation (ie rail) and told me to get folks from other districts to email their representatives regarding this issue.

[vitaviatic]

Leadway for the TTA Phase I system is designed to be 15 minutes peak, 30 minutes off peak. There is absolutely no way to do 3 minute leadways with a DMU train.

I also believe there is a platform limitation that would prevent 3 cars from being used. I believe the maximum is 2 cars and this was being done for cost reasons.

Thus the numbers you state for capacity are way way off.

[ChiefJoJo]

This post may be of some interest to transit buffs. (If you aren't, I wouldn't bother) It summarizes FTA's proposed guidance on funding for future transit projects.

The one that most affects the Triangle is this one I believe:

FTA proposes to allow project sponsors that seek to introduce a new transit mode to an area to claim credit for the user benefits caused by attributes of that mode beyond the travel time and cost measures currently available in the local travel model.

Essentially, the travel models are validated (tested for ability to accurately predict current and future travel) and revised as needed. I believe the FTA is saying, 'we realize these models are not always accurate, especially for new modes (like TTA in this area), so we'll allow you to supplement the model with an approved transit ridership survey that will help predict future travel.'

Also, I think this one...

FTA proposes

[monsoon]

Obviously, if current design numbers are used. One of the problems with the original TTA design is that it was almost entirely focused on regional service. One of the bigger suggestions that we would make concerning rework of the TTA network would be enhancements that would allow for much more local service options (such as the discussed RBC special service trains) for both Raleigh and Durham, within the framework of a regional system.

[ChiefJoJo]

As I first mentioned with this RBC idea is the only way that you are going to be able to cost justify a station at that arena is only if that station can be used for something else.