Triangle Regional Transit

[avery]

I still associate monorails as spectacle contrived at a 1960's World's Fair and read about in back issues of Popular Science. Has anyone seen the Simpson's episode where the monorail is built in Springfield?

I think a monorail or fixed guideway system is not really an answer the Triangle needs. I don't see the benefit of building raised rails all over the Triangle. Not only would it look odd cutting through the city, the potential evacuation of people from one of these would be one big obstacle. It seems that laying tracks on the ground would be less costly and less of an inconvienence. I could already hear the political fodder from the N&O if this was ever proposed.

[monsoon]

While I doubt we will ever see monorails or monobeams in NC, I think some of the arguments against them fall short in regards to safety, operation, and implementation. Case in point the Shonan monorail in Kamakura, JP. This monorail was opened in 1971, and it has operated reliabily for decades with no accidents, deaths, or other dire predictions that are attributed to these systems. 1971 Technology. Unlike maglev this is tried and proven technology that does work if given the chance.

More here

[avery]

Or should TTA start from square one with completely new options for transit, like:

- Following the lead of systems like Denver, where LRT is built along the interstate, like 540. That would go between north Raleigh, RTP, and Cary along the new 540. That would better serve suburbanites, who clearly rule the politics in the Triangle, leading to increased political support. It would also allow for lower congestion impacts from the sprawling suburban patterns that currently seem inevitable in this region.

- Build an HOV/BRT system on 540 and/or 40, which would allow for more flexibility in collecting riders from the suburban areas which contain most of the commuters

- Some other idea that you guys have been spinning around in your heads.

I really hate to comprimise on this issue, because it does nothing to change the development patterns already in place in this region: sprawl. By focusing rail alternatives to the outer reaches of the county and along I-540, you do create some benefit of alleviating traffic, but I fear it would only encourage further growth outsides the city's core.

I think the idea of taking another look at collection points could be looked into further. Whether a rail station is in downtown Cary as opposed to somewhere else in the city will still require people to commute to the stations. With suburbs being so spread out, I don't know if this would work either. At least the TTA plan had stations centrally located.

[avery]

While I doubt we will ever see monorails or monobeams in NC, I think some of the arguments against them fall short in regards to safety, operation, and implementation. Case in point the Shonan monorail in Kamakura, JP. This monorail was opened in 1971, and it has operated reliabily for decades with no accidents, deaths, or other dire predictions that are attributed to these systems. 1971 Technology. Unlike maglev this is tried and proven technology that does work if given the chance.

It does look very functional hovering over the existing roads, but it is very ugly.

[MR-2]

Actually neither can Charlotte. Charlotte shares Mecklenburg with 6 other municipalities (Huntersville, Cornelus, Davidson, Pineville, Mint Hill, & Matthews) and support for transit is mixed here. The Pineville town council voted against having the South LRT go into their town, so as a result the LRT stops a couple of miles from there even though the original plan had proposed a station there. This was a pretty stupid decision and one that I think the town will regret in the long run.

To be fair though, Charlotte dominates Mecklenburg county. Raleigh has only half the county's population, so the impact of its neighbors is more pronounced.

[monsoon]

While I doubt we will ever see monorails or monobeams in NC......

I have to correct myself on this one as there was a private monorail built in the Charlotte area in the early 1970s. Some of you may have been around long enough to remember the monorail that used to exist at Carowinds. It appeared a year after the park opened in 1973 I believe and there were plans to extend it beyond the park to serve people in the immediate area. The hotel that is located at Carowinds Blvd (1st exit in SC headed south) was designed so the Carowinds monorail could enter the building on the 2nd floor. Next time you are in the area take a look as the building is still there. There were plans to incorporate the monorail into kind of an urbanvillage and entertainment center if I remember correctly.

However, ironically, the recession that was brought on by the oil shocks of the early 70s put an end to these plans and once the economy had recovered years later, it was Carowinds that was in trouble and the extensions to the monorail were never built. (Paramount bought the park and completely eliminated the 2 state "theme" of the park) The monorail was later removed and moved to Mexico were it serves a community there now.

The Carowinds monorail holds the distinction as being the only monorail built in the USA that crossed state lines as it traveled on both the NC and SC sides of the park.

Carowinds Monorail circa 1975

[MR-2]

It does look very functional hovering over the existing roads, but it is very ugly.

I'm curious what the operating speed for that particular monorail is. Is it steel-wheeled or rubber? How much does it cost? It would definitely look odd from the perspective of the street. It crowds the sky and clearly puts function way over form. But maybe it's efficient. I don't know.

[monsoon]

The Shonan monorail uses rubber tires inside that steel beam. It has a top speed of about 47 mph and that particular system can handle 30,000 people/day. (60,000 trips) What is the typical average speed on I-40 and US 70 during commuting hours?

[avery]

The Shonan monorail uses rubber tires inside that steel beam. It has a top speed of about 47 mph and that particular system can handle 30,000 people/day. (60,000 trips) What is the typical average speed on I-40 and US 70 during commuting hours?

What is the average speed if all of the stops are factored in?

[ncwebguy]

I remember the Carowinds monorail!!! It's only passenger station was near where the Vortex is now I belive, kind of near the kalidescope/scrambler if that's still there. Again with the irony, but below the stop was the gas guzzling "cars on a rail" ride, a faster version of the "jalopies" over near white lightnin'.

I thought it was weird that it would take you through the park, and then out through the parking lot (without picking up/dropping off) and then through a wooded section kind of near I-77, but this makes sense.

I know that hotel was where the "big stars" who were playing the paladium (a really small at the time amplitheater).

They also had the "buckets", also similar to disney world, that worked like a ski lift and transported park users between three access points. I think those are gone as well? I don't think this is a mass transit option either, but works kind of like PRT. The lines for waiting for a bucket at peak travel times would be disasterous.

Carowinds itself was a Disney World wannabe, far enough up the east coast to be somewhat close to the northeast, but far enough south to have weather to operate from memorial day to labor day and beyond.

I almost cried when I saw the monorail was gone and in its place was the outlet mall, which I think is gone now too?

The only "future" thing that remained (I think it's still there) is the (formerly Eastern airlines sponsored) sky tower, which slowly spun people around and up its spire. It doesn't get you anywhere, but was a fun, air conditioned ride that gave a bird's eye view of the park.

On 40 during rush hour, I think speed is around 10-15 miles an hour, but only for a 5-10 mile stretch from 540 to the wade ave split, and then slow but higher around there and on secondary roads.

[monsoon]

llll

They also had the "buckets", also similar to disney world, that worked like a ski lift and transported park users between three access points. I think those are gone as well? I don't think this is a mass transit option either, but works kind of like PRT. The lines for waiting for a bucket at peak travel times would be disasterous.

....

You are referring to this skyway ride. It is was one of my favorites as a kid and unfortunately it is gone too.

[monsoon]

What is the average speed if all of the stops are factored in?

I don't know though you make a good point. It would be less than the top speed of the monorail. According to my sister (who lives in a house on the same mountain as the lady Buddha in the first photo) the Shonan Monorail is fairly efficient in that the trains only stay in the stations for just a couple of minutes then they are on their way and they accelerate to full speed fairly fast. If it is like the rest of Japanese trains, you can set your watch by their promptness. She says the ride is quite enjoyable as it appears that you are flying through the air and the views are very nice.

[avery]

I don't know though you make a good point. It would be less than the top speed of the monorail. According to my sister (who lives in a house on the same mountain as the lady Buddha in the first photo) the Shonan Monorail is fairly efficient in that the trains only stay in the stations for just a couple of minutes then they are on their way and they accelerate to full speed fairly fast. If it is like the rest of Japanese trains, you can set your watch by their promptness. She says the ride is quite enjoyable as it appears that you are flying through the air and the views are very nice.

I'm sure the views into people's backyards would draw some privacy criticism from the NIMBYs. Sounds like a pretty cool ride.

[urbanesq]

To be fair though, Charlotte dominates Mecklenburg county. Raleigh has only half the county's population, so the impact of its neighbors is more pronounced.

... and, Charlotte benefits from its status as a center city with transportation spokes radiating from its core, as opposed to the Triangle, which is a completely different, much more dispersed land development pattern with multiple central cities being connected. I think this is fundamentally different than most other transit systems in the US, and thus doesn't fit the FTA mold very easliy.

- Work on gaining a more an improved revenue source

YES!

as you point out, the engineering is done, the land is purchased and the station developer is ready to go. To start over now would be crazy and an EXTREME waste of previous taxpayer dollars. I think we should've had a greater local funding source all along.

[sax184]

The plan was considered fairly in my opinion.

It took about 2 weeks from public knowledge of the concept to City Council approval, including planning board approval on the way.

Do you really believe this is good government?

[avery]

... and, Charlotte benefits from its status as a center city with transportation spokes radiating from its core, as opposed to the Triangle, which is a completely different, much more dispersed land development pattern with multiple central cities being connected. I think this is fundamentally different than most other transit systems in the US, and thus doesn't fit the FTA mold very easliy.

I wonder what calculations and hypotheses they are using for their model. I know the Triangle MSA is broken down into 2 seperate MSAs of Raleigh and Durham. I beleive all of Charlotte is still catogorized under the same MSA. I wonder if these numbers affect any ratings by the FTA.

[monsoon]

I wonder what calculations and hypotheses they are using for their model. I know the Triangle MSA is broken down into 2 seperate MSAs of Raleigh and Durham. I beleive all of Charlotte is still catogorized under the same MSA. I wonder if these numbers affect any ratings by the FTA.

Actually the proposed North Commuter Rail line in Charlotte has 3 stops in Iredell county that is not part of the Charlotte MSA. Iredell is a Micropolitan Statistical Area as it does not have a significant # of commuters that goe to CLT.

[urbanesq]

Actually the proposed North Commuter Rail line in Charlotte has 3 stops in Iredell county that is not part of the Charlotte MSA. Iredell is a Micropolitan Statistical Area as it does not have a significant # of commuters that goe to CLT.

that's still the extension of a central city system, though.

So riders on that leg will stay within Iredell County? Having been there I find that hard to imagine...

[monsoon]

that's still the extension of a central city system, though.

So riders on that leg will stay within Iredell County? Having been there I find that hard to imagine...

Lowes Home Improvement stores has their new HQ in Iredell county right on this line. It is expected they will have 8000 employees at this locale once it is built out so it is very possible you will see usage in Iredell. People from CLT may use this line to go to Iredell to work jobs for Lowes.

[avery]

Actually the proposed North Commuter Rail line in Charlotte has 3 stops in Iredell county that is not part of the Charlotte MSA. Iredell is a Micropolitan Statistical Area as it does not have a significant # of commuters that goe to CLT.

I guess what I am alluding to is getting missed. The Triangle region is made up a bit differently than many other urban areas with our largest employment center straddling 2 counties. Our population is very spread out and transit is going to be different than that of Charlotte. Charlotte is much more urban with a more centralized employment corridor at the city's core. Most people in Charlotte commute inward, whereas in Raleigh and Durham they commute outward. I think the census department uses similar commuting patterns to create MSAs. I'm asking whether this anomoly gets factored into the FTA's ratings or is it not a factor whatsoever?

[ChiefJoJo]

Our population is very spread out and transit is going to be different than that of Charlotte. Charlotte is much more urban with a more centralized employment corridor at the city's core. Most people in Charlotte commute inward, whereas in Raleigh and Durham they commute outward. I think the census department uses similar commuting patterns to create MSAs. I'm asking whether this anomoly gets factored into the FTA's ratings or is it not a factor whatsoever?

The MSA's are just for statistitians and demographers. FTA is looks at the raw numbers on who lives close to the station (TOD), and who is likely to ride it, etc. They probably start by looking at the stations and drawing a 1/4 mile and 1/2 mile radius around each station to see what the walkup trip capture would be with respect to residential, employment, retail, school, etc. The major numbers to think about are residential and employment, as those are the biggest and most reliable ridership generators and attractors.

The problem for the Triangle is where do the people live that TTA is hoping to serve? Do folks working in RTP live DT? More likely they live in N. Raleigh or Cary. If you live in a sprawling subvidision in N Ral, you are probably more likely to drive on 540 than drive DT, catch the train, get off at Triangle Metro Center, take a shuttle to Nortel or Cisco, and Cary is just as bad as N Raleigh. The biggest advantage Charlotte has is the large central employment base and the fact they have a dedicated slaes tax for transit. This tax really helped get the trolley going and encouraged local developers to invest in TOD along the SLRT so that once the feds were brought in, new riders were right there in South End.

Should TTA simply keep the land along the planned corridor, and do the following:

- Work on increasing density of zoning around the planned station so that ridership numbers eventually rise up to make that previous plan viable

- Work on gaining a more an improved revenue source

- Simply wait.

I'd like to see both 1 and 2, but I don't think the political climate is ready for that. I think too much damage is done to TTA rail to be able to go to the citizens for more money. We should either:

A. Mount a PR campaign that refocuses TTA's efforts on winning public support over time and increases density around the stops (TOD), and then come back for a referendum on a transit tax.

--OR--

B. Start over with a bare bones system that can be funded locally to get the idea of transit going, a la the trolley in Clt.

[JDC]

Maybe when Sens. Dole and Burr suggested alternatives they meant hot air balloon rides? What about blimps?

I like the monorail idea, even though I get visions of that Simpsons episode...

[orulz]

I've always held that TTA would have more success if they did a better job of describing future service extensions. I was at a luncheon about transit and transportation last week here at Cisco. There were some people in the audience who were hopeless (calling the rudimentary public transit that exists in Raleigh "communism") but some folks had legitimate complaints, doubts, or lacks of understanding by no fault of their own.

Some of the folks complained that "This line doesn't go where the people are" and said that instead there should be transit to Apex, Holly Springs, and Fuquay-Varina; Wake Forest and Falls lake; Knightdale, etc, you know, all the burgeoning suburban areas that are growing like mad all over the region.

TTA did a pretty terrible job of explaining that Yes, transit will come to those areas, but the backbone between Raleigh and Durham has to be there too for this to be a system. Otherwise, people in Knightdale can't get to jobs in RTP, and people in western Wake can't get to jobs at the state government center, and so forth.

It might actually be a good thing if TTA took a step back and looked again at the phasing of the rail system. It may be that one of the "spur" lines is a better place to start. For example, the seldom-used (and partially abandoned) rail lines between Knightdale or Fuquay and Raleigh, or the one from Durham to RTP to Apex (with an abandoned extension to Fuquay.) Any one of these lines could potentially be done Eastrans-style, potentially as cheap as the Nashville Music City Star: buy/lease the line, build platforms, perhaps add some signals and a couple of sidings, and then just run trains.

$30 million dollars (cost of the commuter rail in Nashville) is a lot easier to stomach than $800 million. After picking some of this low-hanging fruit and getting locals used to the idea, THEN go for the big investment to tie it all together.

[monsoon]

... and, Charlotte benefits from its status as a center city with transportation spokes radiating from its core, as opposed to the Triangle, which is a completely different, much more dispersed land development pattern with multiple central cities being connected. I think this is fundamentally different than most other transit systems in the US, and thus doesn't fit the FTA mold very easliy.

YES!

Yet Charlotte does have the disadvantage that just past its city limits is not only a different county but a different state as well. These systems usually have 25% state funding. In CLT's case this means not only involving the NC Legislature but the also the legislature in Columbia which isn't so keen to fund a transit system that delivers people to NC.

Every area has its unique issues and its up to the local leaders to figure out how to work around them.

[sax184]

WRAL has a poll running on their website about TTA. Head over there and see if we can push the supportive numbers up a bit. You know that Russell Capps has already sent this to every anti-tax zealot in Wake County; we might as well at least fight back.

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