Triangle Regional Transit

[ncwebguy]

I saw the hybrid bus at the RTP transfer station yesterday afternoon. I wanted to ride it, but had no need to go to the airport, and that was the only route using it. I can't comment on the ride, but the lower floors moves the windows closer to the ground, which gave it a distinct look from the rest of the fleet.

I've seen the back door hydrolics get stuck a couple of times... am not sure if it was the same bus with the problem or not though.

[orulz]

I saw the hybrid bus at the TTA transfer center on Tuesday night. Didn't get a chance to ride it, but it looked pretty nice. Low floors, a lot quieter than your average diesel bus, and it doesn't leave a cloud of diesel smoke when taking off from a standstill either. Clearly, hybrid technology is the future of bus transit.

Also notable was how many passengers there were on the hybrid bus (which is running on route 747, the airport shuttle.) It seemed pretty much full. My first thought was "they're all just taking the hybrid bus for a spin," but I was wrong - nearly every one of them had an armful of luggage. Perhaps TTA's airport shuttle is catching on more than I realized?

[yfreemark]

According to the Triangle Business Journal, http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/storie...tml?jst=b_ln_hl, the Regional Rail Project has been delayed a year to a projected opening in 4th quarter 2009.

Cost-effectiveness numbers were above $26, making the project far from receiving a medium rating.

A disappointing, but expected, turn of events.

[orulz]

If it really ends up being just a 1 year delay, I would be very happy. After all, what's one year, even two, as long as it happens?

I wish it were easier to be optimistic.

[monsoon]

This is probably the end of that proposal. The TTA ought to go back to the drawing board and come up with something different instead of dragging it out for yet another year.

[ncwebguy]

Is it just me, or does 7,100 riders in Q4 2009 seem a bit on the low side???

The 10,200 number in 2030 is even more off/lower.

Guess it's back to the drawing board for funds, or for the system in general, though I hope that is not the case.

If people are concerned it is a hand out to land speculators near the stops, maybe

there can be some kind of "zone tax" on property in those areas to lessen the

fed request? With university students and govt workers getting a free ride, few people pay to ride the buses I take (downtown raleigh and the durham/chapel hill loop).

Ridership seemed to be up due to gas price increases, but people seem to have gone back

to their cars in the last week or two.

[dmccall]

I think those rider numbers are exceedingly high. We live near North Hills and it would take my IBM friend about 75 minutes and three modes of transport to get to IBM's door with this plan in Phase II.

Given that we have to put our own rails down anyway, I think it is time to scrap the diesel train concept. We need something that will have more of an impact and will do a better job than what we are seeing in so many other cities.

I wonder how much of a "cool factor" is going on with the desire to just have SOME kind of rail service. The locomotive plan is not unlike a kid with his little red wagon trying to be like daddy with his car. A friend of mine put it another way: it's like the drug culture. All the cool people are doing it but it ultimately is a costly habit that doesn't improve one's life in the long run.

That's not to say that a transit system will never work, we just need to step beyond the 1920's with our technology with come up with something a little lighter weight, dynamic, and quicker. If it takes more money, so be it.

What are they DOING at NC State, anyway? We don't need student nascars, we need transit, dammit!

[dmccall]

I am eager to see the mockup. For some reason that great word, travishamockery, keeps coming to mind! My eagerness to see this is, how do you say, ginormous (ji NOR mus)?

[Damien]

Oh well. Maybe the rail system will be up and running the year before the end of time.

[DanRNC]

My prediction is that there won't be light rail in the Triangle for the next couple of decades. I think the opportunity came and went. It didn't have support from any of our Senators or Reps except for David Price-who doesn't come across as the most influential politician. The only hope it has is a major power shift in Washington which may happen as the Republicans may be packing their bags in 2008. The system in Charlotte will be a litmus test for the TTA system, which isn't very promising.

[JunktionFET]

I'm curious why some people have such opposition to the concept of a train, especially a diesel train. dmcall is not the only one I've heard make such a statement. Thankfully his seems to still be in support of the transit concept.

First off, the cost of running electric rail vehicles would pretty much shut down any discussion at all of a fixed guideway transit system. The pricetag associated with laying that kind of infrastructure over the distance in question is astronomical. So the trains will have to be self powered, unless we're going to wait 50 years. Period.

The diesel trains they selected are high tech machines--they are a diesel-hydraulic hybrid, extremely efficient and very clean burning. As an added bonus, they can also be fueled by NC-grown biodiesel, made from transesterfied soybean oil or any other kind of vegetable oil. Though we get our electricity from nuclear power, these trains would pump far less CO2 into the atmosphere than a coal-fired power plant would supplying the electrical power for equivalent trains.

Pound for pound, steel wheel trains are by far one of the most energy efficient ways to transport goods or people. Maglev trains are superior, but we don't have the multiple billions of dollars it would take to make such a system a reality. The rolling resistance of steel wheels on steel track is a mere fraction of what exists between rubber tires and pavement. Additionally, trains can generate less aerodynamic drag as they slice through the air, and this advantage becomes more and more apparent as passenger cars are added.

Just because something is old doesn't mean you throw it out and forget about it. If our society spent more time looking at things done in the past, we might just be a better people today.

[yfreemark]

I completely agree. This is not a plan that needs to be scrapped AT ALL. This is a fantastic plan for this region because IT WILL BE FAST, and it will hit major activity centers. It will also encourage development in areas that are already becoming more dense. We have got to make this thing happen.

Also, Light Rail and BRT will COST MORE than this diesel rail system.

[urbanesq]

it's a great plan, would provide an outstanding spine for a series of high-density corridors in which to focus growth in the region, and meets each and every objective that the original public studies for this project set forth.

It's NOT time to go back to the drawing board. That would take another decade at lease. It IS time for the business and political leaders in this region to step up and DEMAND that we have this project ASAP, and to find whatever sources of local funding it takes to make it happen NOW. Otherwise we can pretty much give up on becoming anything other than a second-rate spot among second-tier markets.

[orulz]

I am convinced that the TTA line, in its proposed form, on its proposed alignment (NCRR) is an absolutely essential piece of the transit puzzle for the Triangle. That is why it is great that TTA has acquired most of the property and easements required to build the right-of-way.

If this is to be our first fixed-guideway transit line, TTA will have to spend this next year doing whatever it takes to increase public understanding and prove its utility to the public. Everybody - and I mean EVERYBODY - still regurgitates the "And it doesn't even go to the airport" sound byte when asked about the rail line. Before the rail line can take off, people need to understand how the airport will be linked to the transit system but it is neither practical nor necessary for these trains to actually stop at the terminal

The Raleigh-Durham line is going to be the largest single transit investment that the Triangle will EVER see, even 50 or 100 years down the line. It is designed to be the backbone for a regional system fit for a metro area of two or three million people. Planning for the future like that is wonderful, and if this project had gone through, then we'd really be set - but alas, perhaps it was too much of a leap.

Perhaps we need to rethink the order in which transit projects will be built in the Triangle. Perhaps the regional rail line should be shelved for several years, while smaller, easily understood projects with an immediate raison d'etre come first. Things like Eastrans, or BRT to the airport via Glenwood. Smaller projects can still spur TOD, and can still succeed at demonstrating the benefits of reduced auto-dependance. After people are used to the idea that alternative transportation is both useful and necessary, heavier investments will become feasible.

[monsoon]

Demands from people are going to have little influence on the Federal Government. As long as the TTA expects the Feds to pay 60% of the price tag of this system, then it is going to have to play by the Fed's rules.

Likewise the best plan in the world is worthless if it doesn't receive funding. The current plan is dead and will not get built if I had to bet my money on it. It was conceived as a $100M plan 14 years ago and instead of doing a level set when things got bad it the TTA delayed it instead for more study and more modeling, year after year. Now 14 years later we have a plan that still no closer to getting built. So the choice is this. Does the TTA continue to push this $100M albatross that really is going to cost $1B and will most likely never be approved? Or. Does the TTA go back to the drawing board to come up with a solution that will get approved by the Feds? I think we already know what is behind door #1.

I think if the local businesses, politicians, and people are going to demand anything, they need to demand some accountability from the people running the TTA because it is their money they are wasting by not achieveing any results. Will it happen? Unfortunately not because the failure's of the TTA has resulted in an pretty big anti-transit movement that is going to be difficult to overcome. So instead of calls to fix the TTA and the plan, instead we are getting calls to not build anything at all.

[romec]

Let me start off by saying that I do want to see regional rail in the triangle.

That said, I honestly think that we need to go back to the drawing board. I understand that the existing plan is designed for the future; the idea is to build high density along the lines. IMHO i'd rather see us aggressively build along our worst corridors now. I know that itd be much more expensive, but I think that it is more useful to the general populace.

If I were designing the system (with a blank check) I'd make the 70 corridor my first priority: Downtown Durham -> Airport -> Crabtree Valley Mall at this point I'd cut along edwards mill and go to the RBC Center, Id then go on to downtown Raleigh from that point. This would be my "phase 1" It gets travellers into town to Downtown Raleigh and Durham; It has a major commercial destination and 2-3 seas of parking that can easily become park and rides (crabtree, RBC, Airport). Furthermore it supports Hurricane games/Bulls games/State games and the fair. I think that this would really increase the urban nature of Crabtree, and projects like Glen Tree would fit in better. The beauty of a system like this lies in the idea of an "express train" (that runs less frequently, maybe once an hour) directly from Raleigh to Durham. Then its feasible to get from Downtown Raleigh to Durham faster than in a car.

I think mass transit often gets hyped a little too much in the forum. Yes I'm definitely for it, but it has to be designed well. Speaking for an average Triangle resident, I think Mass Transit here has to accomplish several things in order to persuade people to use it.

1. Timeliness: I am not going to add 20 minutes to my trip just for the sake of mass transit. Keep in mind I'm not even talking about getting to the stations.

2. Simplicity: I am not going to make several transfers between different modes of transportation. Going from point A to point B via car is much more convenient than Bus to the station, taking a train, then taking another bus. Truth be told, in reality a single trip would probably require more than just 2 bus trips.

3. Convenience: i'm in my mid 20's and I walk miles everyday. Your average resident probably is not going to. If their stop is not within .5 miles of a transit stop, we can probably consider them off the transit grid.

4. Reliability: Lets say I work in the park and have to work really late one night. Do i have to worry about missing the last train or bus? The chance of being stranded is going to make me lean towards my car.

5. Cost effectiveness. I know that when I drive to Raleigh, I am spending ~5 dollars in gas on a round trip. Most people really don't keep up with numbers that way; Paying 3 bucks a day for transit may seem steep to most people, although the rising gas prices may make this point easier.

There is an old Comp Sci adage

Cheap, Fast, Good choose any two. . .

If we want a fast, good rail system, we're going to need to be prepared to pay for it.

[mattm]

*sigh*

Here we go with another delay. I've never built a transit system, but I've headed some large software projects in my day and been around some that failed. The ones that failed did so because they were overplanned and overambitious. You get into the planning mode for so long that you forget how to actually build anything, and by the time you get it finished you've missed your market.

When I was young there was an urban redevelopment project going on in Binghamton NY called "Metrocenter". It was one of those urban mall redevelopments that were the "in" thing in the '70s. The planning went on and on and the price tag went up and up and more and more money went to the developer without anything being built (other than a few productive blocks of the city being knocked down) until finally the project almost collapsed. The end result was nice, but it was dwarfed by the average neighborhood grocery store strip mall (except that it was enclosed). The rest of downtown died anyway.

I'm afraid we're going down that road here. I agree that this is a very important project for the region, even if it's not meant to connect North Raleigh or Chapel Hill to RTP (there will be other projects in phase 3 for that) and even if it doesn't bring rail to RDU (express bus does a better job of that) and even if it uses technology that was pioneered 2 centuries ago (hey, the wheel is many thousand years older and it's still useful). Buses just don't shape development like rail. However, we've spent 14 years doing nothing but paperwork.

At the DEIS hearings I said, "I've got a shovel out in the car. Can I bring it in and start digging?" Yes, I was saying I liked the project, but I was also saying, "Get building!" It just got a little harder to do that.

[MR-2]

In a few years getting out of our cars mid-trip will start to look really, really appealing.

[JunktionFET]

A lot of people out there take a very selfish approach, i.e. "Well it won't serve me so MY tax money shouldn't pay for it"... I love that one, I think someone wrote an editorial like that in the N&O.

Another popular complaint is in regards to the speed of the system and how much faster a car would be--by today's standards of course, and assuming there are no accidents or weather issues. <- Strong naysayers often conveniently forget about how unpredictable 100,000 human minds are on a piece of road, or how crazy mother nature can be

*sigh*

Construction of the US64 bypass doesn't serve me at all. I have no interest in it, and its presence has made absolutely no difference in the traffic that I see everyday. MY tax money paid for it, but I don't care. I accept it as an enhancement in infrastructure, and I'm intelligent enough to know that it improves the quality of life for some people, therefore it helps the entire community. Though it just helps a few people along now, it lays a foundation for the future. Nobody is going to argue that traffic won't increase on that road--it definitely will as time goes on.

TTA Regional Rail won't serve everyone. It's presence may not make any dent in traffic for someone commuting from Holly Springs to North Raleigh, but it will help a few people along now, and it lays a foundation for the future. Ridership will increase over time. Development will also follow the corridor. Anyone who denies that is blind and/or stupid. All one needs to do is look at every freakin freeway, loop or otherwise, or any major arterial route in the area.

Another thing--the point of mass transit isn't to blow the doors off of cars, though sometimes it can. The goal is to provide a stress-free, reliable, and much safer trip--and can be easily made into highly productive time. It isn't a waste of time at all. Even if the trip takes longer by train (or bus for that matter), your mind is free to concentrate on other things--like work, phone calls, etc. Once a full system has been implemented, a lot of people will only need to drive a relatively short distance in town, never needing to see a freeway or frantic speeds, then let TTA do the rest.

Also, you are not married to it. You can choose to drive any time you wish. Take the train to work on tuesdays and thursdays, take it everyday, don't take it at all. The point is that you have more options.

You have to start somewhere, and this particular deal is by far the best option to start with. We're talking about an unproven project that many people are obviously quite skeptical or nervous about. The ROW is basically being handed to TTA, all they need to do is build their own tracks and supply their own vehicles. Any other option would have a pricetag so large that it would never get off the ground. And the more the clock ticks, the higher the pricetag goes. Tick Tock Tick Tock

[Jones_]

A lot of people out there take a very selfish approach, i.e. "Well it won't serve me so MY tax money shouldn't pay for it"... I love that one, I think someone wrote an editorial like that in the N&O.

Another popular complaint is in regards to the speed of the system and how much faster a car would be--by today's standards of course, and assuming there are no accidents or weather issues. <- Strong naysayers often conveniently forget about how unpredictable 100,000 human minds are on a piece of road, or how crazy mother nature can be

*sigh*

Construction of the US64 bypass doesn't serve me at all. I have no interest in it, and its presence has made absolutely no difference in the traffic that I see everyday. MY tax money paid for it, but I don't care. I accept it as an enhancement in infrastructure, and I'm intelligent enough to know that it improves the quality of life for some people, therefore it helps the entire community. Though it just helps a few people along now, it lays a foundation for the future. Nobody is going to argue that traffic won't increase on that road--it definitely will as time goes on.

TTA Regional Rail won't serve everyone. It's presence may not make any dent in traffic for someone commuting from Holly Springs to North Raleigh, but it will help a few people along now, and it lays a foundation for the future. Ridership will increase over time. Development will also follow the corridor. Anyone who denies that is blind and/or stupid. All one needs to do is look at every freakin freeway, loop or otherwise, or any major arterial route in the area.

Another thing--the point of mass transit isn't to blow the doors off of cars, though sometimes it can. The goal is to provide a stress-free, reliable, and much safer trip--and can be easily made into highly productive time. It isn't a waste of time at all. Even if the trip takes longer by train (or bus for that matter), your mind is free to concentrate on other things--like work, phone calls, etc. Once a full system has been implemented, a lot of people will only need to drive a relatively short distance in town, never needing to see a freeway or frantic speeds, then let TTA do the rest.

Also, you are not married to it. You can choose to drive any time you wish. Take the train to work on tuesdays and thursdays, take it everyday, don't take it at all. The point is that you have more options.

You have to start somewhere, and this particular deal is by far the best option to start with. We're talking about an unproven project that many people are obviously quite skeptical or nervous about. The ROW is basically being handed to TTA, all they need to do is build their own tracks and supply their own vehicles. Any other option would have a pricetag so large that it would never get off the ground. And the more the clock ticks, the higher the pricetag goes. Tick Tock Tick Tock

...and the editorial writer's share was only 1/2 percent of each meal eaten at a restaurant...not exactly breaking the piggy bank...

[avery]

I've been quiet on this topic for some time now, but I am going to chime in today. I hate to say it, but the TTA does need to totally rethink the way that they are approaching it. Personally, I would like to see mass transit here in the Triangle. The time this thing would get built and fully operational, the Triangle will be home to close to 2 million people.

The problem is that the current plan is not very functional. They current route is all about future potential and this thing won't get approval on potential alone. They need to lay track in already high traffic corridors to get the numbers and then create a Phase II or III to other areas.

The idea of taking it down 70 is a great idea. This area is one of the more dense areas in the Triangle already and creates the opportunity for more infill. Take it from Duke Hospital, RTP, Briar Creek, RDU, RBC/Fairgrounds, Crabtree, North Hills, Downtown. A possible Phase II from RTP, Morrisville, Cary, RBC, NCSU, Downtown and up Capital Blvd. This would increase ridership in my opinion if not more support for regional rail.

[urbanesq]

I've been quiet on this topic for some time now, but I am going to chime in today. I hate to say it, but the TTA does need to totally rethink the way that they are approaching it. Personally, I would like to see mass transit here in the Triangle. The time this thing would get built and fully operational, the Triangle will be home to close to 2 million people.

The problem is that the current plan is not very functional. They current route is all about future potential and this thing won't get approval on potential alone. They need to lay track in already high traffic corridors to get the numbers and then create a Phase II or III to other areas.

The idea of taking it down 70 is a great idea. This area is one of the more dense areas in the Triangle already and creates the opportunity for more infill. Take it from Duke Hospital, RTP, Briar Creek, RDU, RBC/Fairgrounds, Crabtree, North Hills, Downtown. A possible Phase II from RTP, Morrisville, Cary, RBC, NCSU, Downtown and up Capital Blvd. This would increase ridership in my opinion if not more support for regional rail.

Well, I certainly respect your opinion, and very much appreciate your expressing it, because this is an important debate. But I couldn't disagree with you more.

The current plan is very functional. It connects the region's areas of highest density in terms of employment and residents, and, yes: it provides the maximum potential for directing a portion of the area's future growth into high density corridors. High car traffic areas don't usually equate with high transit usage areas, because people need to be able to walk and bike to transit; they can't do that on or near major higways. Plus, areas that are designed for cars are not generally zoned for the density (residential and employment) needed to support a transit system.

In addition to being an indirect route that would mean commuting times were unreasonably long, by and large, the areas you talk about for a Phase I are very low density by transit standards. Actually, by ANY standards. Brier Creek is nice and all, but it's a sprawling wasteland. Nobody could walk to a transit stop from anywhere in that development. Crabtree is dense in terms of retail sq. ft., but that's about it; also, people use transit for work and entertainment, not for shopping. North Hills is a little better, but again, most of their density is retail. Plus, the people who live along your proposed corridor would ADAMANTLY fight 1) the acquisition of corridor in their back yard; 2) the development of truly dense pockets around stations and 3) the local tax hikes needed to fund a system on entirely new corridor.

Eventually connecting North Raleigh to RTP via the airport is a great idea, but starting there would mean the system never had enough riders to expand elsewhere. Plus, failing to link downtown Raleigh directly to RTP and Durham would be a fatal flaw in any system, more inefficient and misguided than not going to the airport.

Again, it's easy to say "start over" until one realizes that this has been a fifteen-year-long process resulting in choices based on intensive study and voluminous public input, and that to "start over" means no transit in the Triangle for at least another 20 years.

The main problem with TTA (aside from their early decision not to seek much local funding--which was a major mistake, don't get me wrong) is that the Bush Administration and the railroads keep moving the ball and upping the ante. With better cooperation, we could all have been riding TTA's trains years ago. Let's not make the mistake of confusing external obstructionism for fundamental problems with the regional rail plan.

I say (again) stay the course and start figuring out how to pay for it locally so we don't need the feds as much.

[orulz]

What is not known (although TTA may have studied the US70 corridor years ago) is how much it would cost.

Charlotte's south corridor LRT is budgeted at only $426 million, so why can't we get our project into that range? Well, for starters, a chunk of the infrastructure for the south LRT was already in place, particularly in the city center (bridges from the old freight line, power systems and and track from the trolley project.) This is extremely lucky because starting from scratch in a dense urban area like uptown Charlotte would be prohibitively expensive.

The Charlotte South Corridor LRT was, like the TTA plan, built mostly on potential - namely, its ability to cause redevelopment and densification in a underdeveloped and run-down industrial corridor. The big difference is, that some of that potential had already been realized in the "south end" neighborhood between uptown and the end of the trolley line.

But most importantly when comparing TTA and CATS LRT take note that the South Corridor is only 9.6 miles long! The distance between Durham and Raleigh is three times that (longer, if you try to zigzag around and include the Airport, Crabtree, RBC, AND NCSU) so regardless of the technology and alignment that is chosen, a trans-triangle transit project will cost a lot. Maybe something like BRT on Glenwood is feasible because it can be done in stages, but the total end-to-end project cost will probably approach or exceed that of the TTA regional rail project.

[yfreemark]

Just wondering Avery, but does this make any sense to you?

[orulz]

Just thought of something. Maybe TTA can re-negotiate some of their contracts with the freight railroads - namely, the one requiring them to seperate their tracks from the freight line by 25 feet. The reason for this stipulation, as I recall, was so that the freight carrier's maintenence-of-way crews could operate without interference from the TTA trains.

But if, for example, TTA agreed to decrease service frequency and only use the far track (the one furthest from the freight rails) when the freight railroad was maintaining their tracks, then maybe the freight carriers could be persuaded to agree.

This is probably hopeless, but it's just something to think about.