New Home For Opera Grand Rapids

[TheLonesomeHobo]

I think the original remark was an ArtPrize reference.

It 100% was

[x99]

Boycotting this proposal because the black silhouettes Spartan/Nash used in the renderings look like snipers. 

 

just kidding, i'm boycotting this proposal because it's awful...... and because of the silhouettes.

 

My panning of the project aside, I am not really that convinced it is an awful idea to have a gas station in that area.  What bothers me is the oddball concept of putting a megalithic convenience store on the corner replete with fake glass and no street-facing doors, with pumps behind the building.  I assume this is driven by the zoning code, but one would assume that an exception would be possible for a gas station.  Now, assuming that a gas station is desirable--an assumption every Schwinn-obsessed, granola chomping Eastownian would no doubt vociferously dispute--it might make more sense to locate a gas station on the corner of Arthur and Fuller.  If two or three people could be convinced to sell, the C-store could be located on Arthur, with a retail building right on Fuller.  This would allow Family Fare to make better (shared) use of that underutilized corner of their parking lot while accommodating some actual street-facing buildings.

[TheLonesomeHobo]

My panning of the project aside, I am not really that convinced it is an awful idea to have a gas station in that area.  What bothers me is the oddball concept of putting a megalithic convenience store on the corner replete with fake glass and no street-facing doors, with pumps behind the building.  I assume this is driven by the zoning code, but one would assume that an exception would be possible for a gas station.  Now, assuming that a gas station is desirable--an assumption every Schwinn-obsessed, granola chomping Eastownian would no doubt vociferously dispute--it might make more sense to locate a gas station on the corner of Arthur and Fuller.  If two or three people could be convinced to sell, the C-store could be located on Arthur, with a retail building right on Fuller.  This would allow Family Fare to make better (shared) use of that underutilized corner of their parking lot while accommodating some actual street-facing buildings.

 

It almost pains me more that Spartan / Nash wants to erect a gas station before addressing the problem that is how awful and out dated that family fare is itself. Take for instance the Family Fare at Lake Mich / Collindale, they completely remodeld that existing store AND added a service center / gas pumps to the existing site while taking up minimal parking. There is plenty of room on the west side of the existing store to accommodate a service center and gas pumps.

 

Also what irks me the most about this project is the lack of doors / windows on both street facing corners, completely arrant. 

[GRDadof3]

It almost pains me more that Spartan / Nash wants to erect a gas station before addressing the problem that is how awful and out dated that family fare is itself. Take for instance the Family Fare at Lake Mich / Collindale, they completely remodeld that existing store AND added a service center / gas pumps to the existing site while taking up minimal parking. There is plenty of room on the west side of the existing store to accommodate a service center and gas pumps.

 

Also what irks me the most about this project is the lack of doors / windows on both street facing corners, completely arrant. 

 

How much money do you think they make per transaction at the Lake Michigan/Collindale store vs the Fulton Heights store? Just take a guess.

 

Seems to be an overriding theme around Grand Rapids lately where people want first class amenities even though businesses are making economy class revenue. What's the average home value in the mile radius around that store? $70,000?

[fotoman311]

How much money do you think they make per transaction at the Lake Michigan/Collindale store vs the Fulton Heights store? Just take a guess.

 

Seems to be an overriding theme around Grand Rapids lately where people want first class amenities even though businesses are making economy class revenue. What's the average home value in the mile radius around that store? $70,000?

 

A mile? I don't have the specific data, but I think you're being a little conservative at $70,000, but the point is still somewhat valid.  Certainly the per capita income is lower, but the density surrounding the store is also higher, and there's no Meijer just down the road to suck away customers.  Maybe that is part of why they think they can get away without investing in the store?

The sad part is they did sink some money into it within the past few years, but it wasn't really very noticeable to me, despite what the quotes in the article say (http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/10/fulton_street_neighborhood_wel.html).  I went in after the renovations with expectations for a change and couldn't really notice much difference, other than some of the signage on the walls had changed.  The service was still underwhelming.

 

And I went in during August to put up a poster for a neighborhood event and was disappointed to find out they no longer had the community bulletin board in the entryway and had replaced it with some store promotional materials. Maybe they had a some specific incidents that led to the removal, but rather than figure out how to resolve those problems it was as if they decided it was too much work to take down some out of date posters every once in awhile in order to let people promote their local events and happenings in a high traffic area. It really irked me and is just another reason not to shop there.

[GRDadof3]

A mile? I don't have the specific data, but I think you're being a little conservative at $70,000, but the point is still somewhat valid.  Certainly the per capita income is lower, but the density surrounding the store is also higher, and there's no Meijer just down the road to suck away customers.  Maybe that is part of why they think they can get away without investing in the store?

The sad part is they did sink some money into it within the past few years, but it wasn't really very noticeable to me, despite what the quotes in the article say (http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/10/fulton_street_neighborhood_wel.html).  I went in after the renovations with expectations for a change and couldn't really notice much difference, other than some of the signage on the walls had changed.  The service was still underwhelming.

 

And I went in during August to put up a poster for a neighborhood event and was disappointed to find out they no longer had the community bulletin board in the entryway and had replaced it with some store promotional materials. Maybe they had a some specific incidents that led to the removal, but rather than figure out how to resolve those problems it was as if they decided it was too much work to take down some out of date posters every once in awhile in order to let people promote their local events and happenings in a high traffic area. It really irked me and is just another reason not to shop there.

 

 

You're right, I was exaggerating. If you go West of there, the homes are in the 70's. East and South they're in the low 100's. I would bet though that those people East and South go to D&W in EGR or the Knapp's Corner Meijer.

[organsnyder]

You're right, I was exaggerating. If you go West of there, the homes are in the 70's. East and South they're in the low 100's. I would bet though that those people East and South go to D&W in EGR or the Knapp's Corner Meijer.

 

Seems like a chicken/egg problem. More affluent customers won't shop there because it's junky, but the owners (purportedly) won't update it because it's not frequented by affluent customers.

[GRDadof3]

Seems like a chicken/egg problem. More affluent customers won't shop there because it's junky, but the owners (purportedly) won't update it because it's not frequented by affluent customers.

 

Not really chicken and egg. Retailers these days locate where there are a lot of "rooftops," particularly new rooftops going up (which tends to represent higher household incomes). I guarantee if the average household income rose in that neighborhood considerably, the store would make the upgrades to capture those residents from leaking to other competitors. As it is now, it probably just squeeks by as a "profitable entity" in their portfolio of stores.

 

Back to the topic of this gas station, I find it interesting that nobody in Eastown seems to want a gas station, while a new one planned for the West Side is being embraced by SWAN. Or was that brought up already?

[mgreven]

Just remember that it's all relative.  I used to frequent that Family Fare and although it wasn't perfect, it was good for the quick trips.  Now that I live on the Lakeshore, it looks really nice and has a good selection compared to my "quick trip" stores here.  I actually miss that one quite a bit!  =)

 

Funny, because income on the lakes around here isn't the issue but it is a small town with no grocery store competition.

[fotoman311]

Not really chicken and egg. Retailers these days locate where there are a lot of "rooftops," particularly new rooftops going up (which tends to represent higher household incomes). I guarantee if the average household income rose in that neighborhood considerably, the store would make the upgrades to capture those residents from leaking to other competitors. As it is now, it probably just squeeks by as a "profitable entity" in their portfolio of stores.

 

Back to the topic of this gas station, I find it interesting that nobody in Eastown seems to want a gas station, while a new one planned for the West Side is being embraced by SWAN. Or was that brought up already?

 

I think part of it comes down to the fact that the westside actually has a dearth of gas stations, with two gas stations on Fulton closing within the past decade or so, while the neighborhoods surrounding this proposed station near Eastown already have options to the north (0.7 mi to Fuller and Michigan) and the south (0.7 mi to BP on Lake Dr).  If you live near Straight and Fulton, or anywhere in the near neighborhoods in SWAN, your only nearby option to purchase gas is the tiny service station at Cherry and Market (1.1 mile) or...Shell at Division and Wealthy (1.7 miles) or ...BP at Covell and LMD (1.6 miles).

[GRDadof3]

Both gas stations denied:

 

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/11/family_fare_gas_station_denied.html

 

I didn't really like the plans either, but if Family Fare needed the gas station to help the store be profitable, what will people say when the grocery store closes? Particularly all of the low income families who rely on this store and may not be members of the Salon on Facebook and don't necessarily have a voice in all this?

 

The fact that SpartanNash said they won't appeal and will "move on" does not bode well, IMHO.

 

Was there any attempt by Eastown residents to come up with a plan that appealed to everyone's needs?

[Telecaster Rex]

SpartanNash doesn't need the gas station for that store to be profitable. That store has lately been at least marginally profitable. The gas station would've helped, but not much especially since SpartanNash treats gas stations and grocery stores as separate accounting entities. And as for the store closing, I wouldn't worry too much. When the decision was made to abandon the Michigan & Fuller D&W over $1 million was invested in the Fulton Heights store and the lease was extended. Any claims that the store will be unprofitable without the gas station are simply "marketing" IMHO.

[GRDadof3]

SpartanNash doesn't need the gas station for that store to be profitable. That store has lately been at least marginally profitable. The gas station would've helped, but not much especially since SpartanNash treats gas stations and grocery stores as separate accounting entities. And as for the store closing, I wouldn't worry too much. When the decision was made to abandon the Michigan & Fuller D&W over $1 million was invested in the Fulton Heights store and the lease was extended. Any claims that the store will be unprofitable without the gas station are simply "marketing" IMHO.

 

 

Well I'm glad there's someone with access to their financial data who has the time to post here.

 

It would probably fall more under PR than marketing, IMHO. So why would they want to build a gas station there in the first place then, if not to help the profitability of that "unit?" Seems like a lot of work for naught.

[Telecaster Rex]

"Access" is a relative term...  There was some working knowledge of SN's financial data within the last few years.  I can't imagine much has changed.

Gas stations are part of SpartanNash's corporate directive - the goal being to provide the best offer possible to the customer in order to compete with the Supercenters (e.g. Meijer, Walmart, etc.).  My point wasn't that they don't contribute at all to profitability, just that in most cases I don't think they contribute enough to make a "loser" store a "winner.  And Fulton Heights is most certainly not a "loser" store.

 

Well I'm glad there's someone with access to their financial data who has the time to post here.

 

It would probably fall more under PR than marketing, IMHO. So why would they want to build a gas station there in the first place then, if not to help the profitability of that "unit?" Seems like a lot of work for naught.

[mpchicago]

Even though Gilmore has given up on that corner, I still see it as a great spot for infill retail/restaurant, with housing/office above. I know 616 has a lot on their plate right now, but....

 

Is the empty parcel right to the west of the store not a viable option for a gas station?  I guess not?

 

Is there really a problem with the store that would cause higher and middle income Fulton Heights and Eastown folks to travel to the Beltline to shop at Meijer?  I'm sure it doesn't have the selection of a Mejier or a newer 50k+ sf modern Family Fare.  If the store isn't up to snuff, I would hope that the community and SN could communicate with each other in an effort to better meet the needs of neighbors while making the store more profitable too.  I know a clean and well stocked store is a good first step.

[GRDadof3]

Even though Gilmore has given up on that corner, I still see it as a great spot for infill retail/restaurant, with housing/office above. I know 616 has a lot on their plate right now, but....

 

Is the empty parcel right to the west of the store not a viable option for a gas station?  I guess not?

 

Is there really a problem with the store that would cause higher and middle income Fulton Heights and Eastown folks to travel to the Beltline to shop at Meijer?  I'm sure it doesn't have the selection of a Mejier or a newer 50k+ sf modern Family Fare.  If the store isn't up to snuff, I would hope that the community and SN could communicate with each other in an effort to better meet the needs of neighbors while making the store more profitable too.  I know a clean and well stocked store is a good first step.

 

 

From comments on this forum and other places, the store is not very highly thought of. Even though they've apparently dumped money into it. I've never been in it. I have this strange recollection of multiple people being shot in the parking lot over the years? Was that a long time ago?

 

Absolutely I don't think a gas station is the best use for that corner.

 

I just hope that SpartanNash doesn't get the feeling that they're unwanted in the neighborhood. From some of the comments I read from the hearing and online, it sounded like people were going a bit overboard in their objections to it.

[GR_Urbanist]

I will say that this decision only buys the neighborhood a couple of years.

 

Right now, there is nothing designated for this lot despite the renderings for the Opera GR building clearly showing that a building was supposed to be there, and It has been empty for a long time. A gas station was an easy foil to go against. You aren't going to find many people enthusiastically cheering for one.

 

However, economic reality is going to have to be faced. This lot has not been a hot property or else something would have long ago appeared there. If there isnt some developer looking to put up a 4-story mixed-use building that is ultra platinum LEED certified, then the people there will have to face facts that you are going to end up with something along the lines of a gas station type business.

 

They may have had their way on this, but the next guy might go to court. There is a fine line between being in opposition to something that is a net negative to the area and being a NIMBY. The gas station is right on that line.

 

So my advice to the opposition is to get together with the land owner and start looking for a developer that would be more friendly to your vision really fast. Basically the neighborhood has to become volunteer salesmen for this property now that they are just now acting like they care about it.

 

If they just walk off and leave it as a dirt lot, then the next development may be less to their liking and not as easy to stop.

 

 

The station on W. Fulton being stopped was just bone-headed.

[wingbert]

 

I just hope that SpartanNash doesn't get the feeling that they're unwanted in the neighborhood. From some of the comments I read from the hearing and online, it sounded like people were going a bit overboard in their objections to it.

 

What?  People in a Grand Rapids neighborhood going overboard objecting to development?  That never happens.

[wmrharris]

From comments on this forum and other places, the store is not very highly thought of. Even though they've apparently dumped money into it. I've never been in it. I have this strange recollection of multiple people being shot in the parking lot over the years? Was that a long time ago?

 

Absolutely I don't think a gas station is the best use for that corner.

 

I just hope that SpartanNash doesn't get the feeling that they're unwanted in the neighborhood. From some of the comments I read from the hearing and online, it sounded like people were going a bit overboard in their objections to it.

People getting shot in the lot? That would be a long long time ago.

 

For those who don't shop there -- this is a nice store on the way home. Good for the supplies, a little light on fresh vegetables/fruit (but then that seems to be the entire SN approach, true with DW an dFamily Fare). Solid if you're looking for interesting craft beer choices. Check out is personal (no self-checkout), that slows things down. The missing vegetables are not so much a problem with the farmers market up the streeet.

 

As to the gas station: once there was a Shell station on the opposite corner, but Holland Home bought it. Even repaved, Carlton is narrow, so the side access would be problematic.

 

Finally, Evergreen Christian school has moved into the old Hillcrest on Fountain. If it has the impact that the Christian school in Ottawa Hills has had, we can expect the housing on the north side of Fulton to stabilize, continuing i the direction of walking and not a car-driven neighborhood.

[GRDadof3]

People getting shot in the lot? That would be a long long time ago.

For those who don't shop there -- this is a nice store on the way home. Good for the supplies, a little light on fresh vegetables/fruit (but then that seems to be the entire SN approach, true with DW an dFamily Fare). Solid if you're looking for interesting craft beer choices. Check out is personal (no self-checkout), that slows things down. The missing vegetables are not so much a problem with the farmers market up the streeet.

As to the gas station: once there was a Shell station on the opposite corner, but Holland Home bought it. Even repaved, Carlton is narrow, so the side access would be problematic.

Finally, Evergreen Christian school has moved into the old Hillcrest on Fountain. If it has the impact that the Christian school in Ottawa Hills has had, we can expect the housing on the north side of Fulton to stabilize, continuing i the direction of walking and not a car-driven neighborhood.

For a mixed use project, would people rather see apartments or condos here?

You're right the robberies were back in the late 90s. Time flies.

[joshleo]

 

 

Finally, Evergreen Christian school has moved into the old Hillcrest on Fountain. If it has the impact that the Christian school in Ottawa Hills has had, we can expect the housing on the north side of Fulton to stabilize, continuing i the direction of walking and not a car-driven neighborhood.

 

It is actually Living Stones Christian School that moved in to the old Hillcrest school, they used to be in the SEAC on Fuller and Sigsbee

[GR_Urbanist]

I cant seem to find this on the MiBiz website, but it appears, according to the hard copy, that the plot of land that was to become the Family Fare gas station has a plan in place for something far more appealing.

 

Orion Construction has plans for a 7.4 Million mixed-use project that tentatively called "One Carlton Place" will have 44 rental units "with a mix of regular apartments and ground-floor townhomes, along with ground-floor retail and restaurant space".

 

There are no renderings, according to the article. I also didnt see any statement on the height.

 

 

So this is a big win for the area, and will well-anchor that part of the district! Cant wait to see what it will look like.

[GRDadof3]

I cant seem to find this on the MiBiz website, but it appears, according to the hard copy, that the plot of land that was to become the Family Fare gas station has a plan in place for something far more appealing.

 

Orion Construction has plans for a 7.4 Million mixed-use project that tentatively called "One Carlton Place" will have 44 rental units "with a mix of regular apartments and ground-floor townhomes, along with ground-floor retail and restaurant space".

 

There are no renderings, according to the article. I also didnt see any statement on the height.

 

 

So this is a big win for the area, and will well-anchor that part of the district! Cant wait to see what it will look like.

 

 

Huh.

 

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/116751-1-carlton-ave/?hl=%20carlton