Upscale Retail in SE Shelby County

[bluff2085]

Memphis developer John Elkington has some big plans for the intersection of Winchester and Forest Hill Irene. Here's the story: Forest Hill Park

[memphian]

The article says that Parisian is hurting already. I am not surprised by that statement at all. I think that mall was badly placed and specifically that Parisian has a pretty tired selection of fashions along with a poorly designed building (at least on the inside). I think that store would have dine much better in East Memphis as a stand alone concept.

I welcome the idea of Nordstrom and Bloomingdales coming to Memphis but there is always the possibility that they will go to Nashville first. I am not getting my hopes up until I see it. =)

[northernbizzkit1]

The article says that Parisian is hurting already. I am not surprised by that statement at all. I think that mall was badly placed and specifically that Parisian has a pretty tired selection of fashions along with a poorly designed building (at least on the inside). I think that store would have dine much better in East Memphis as a stand alone concept.

I welcome the idea of Nordstrom and Bloomingdales coming to Memphis but there is always the possibility that they will go to Nashville first. I am not getting my hopes up until I see it. =)

I totally agree with this...that Parisian should have been placed along Poplar...however, once more development comes to that area, it will probably do well...hopefully.

If anything, I could see Nordstrom and Bloomingdales possibly doing simultaneous Nashville/Memphis openings...I mean, Nordstrom and Bloomingdales would be in one of the most elite parts of Memphis (or close to it) if they open up at the new mall.

[Kristyn24]

I totally agree with this...that Parisian should have been placed along Poplar...however, once more development comes to that area, it will probably do well...hopefully.

If anything, I could see Nordstrom and Bloomingdales possibly doing simultaneous Nashville/Memphis openings...I mean, Nordstrom and Bloomingdales would be in one of the most elite parts of Memphis (or close to it) if they open up at the new mall.

I disagree, everytime I go into Parisian there are tons of people!

[memphis born]

The article says that Parisian is hurting already. I am not surprised by that statement at all. I think that mall was badly placed and specifically that Parisian has a pretty tired selection of fashions along with a poorly designed building (at least on the inside). I think that store would have dine much better in East Memphis as a stand alone concept.

I welcome the idea of Nordstrom and Bloomingdales coming to Memphis but there is always the possibility that they will go to Nashville first. I am not getting my hopes up until I see it. =)

I understand why you won't get your hopes up, but with the kind of money backing the project and the fact that all the execs in that area,Fedex Thomas&Betts, Orgill brothers etc. want this lifestyle center there, I can't see how it will fail.

[Kristyn24]

I understand why you won't get your hopes up, but with the kind of money backing the project and the fact that all the execs in that area,Fedex Thomas&Betts, Orgill brothers etc. want this lifestyle center there, I can't see how it will fail.

Don

[jrox]

Don

[Kristyn24]

Yikes, I think you misunderstood my point. Surrounding demographics for the proposed areas, I was referring to include Collierville, Olive Branch, Byhalia and Germantown. The average household incomes for these areas are from $100,000 to $500,00, and the $500,000 demographic area is a small blip in comparison to the more common lower household averages.

[jrox]

Yikes, I think you misunderstood my point. Surrounding demographics for the proposed areas, I was referring to include Collierville, Olive Branch, Byhalia and Germantown. The average household incomes for these areas are from $100,000 to $500,00, and the $500,000 demographic area is a small blip in comparison to the more common lower household averages.

[Kristyn24]

Sorry about the confusion, I was making a point and anyone can tell you that it is true. Now I say 1 store and put it downtown. I agree with you on all points, just I don't think enough people will visit out east to make it work.

I agree.

[Clobber]

Kristyn, welcome to the forum!

And I also am concerned with the sprawly asphalt-obsessed developments that we've seen in the burbs of late. I believe there was a city movement to promote smarter planning. Does anyone know how far that initiative has gotten? I'd love to see higher-density suburbs, with legitimate town square draws that are pedestrian-oriented. There were a few of those in the St. Louis area (Clayton for high-rises, Kirkwood for the town square life). Memphis could use a couple of those, maybe Bartlett or Millington could go in that direction. If not them, maybe Marion.

[Rardy]

The ONLY thing retailers are interested in is household income. Their process of chosing a location for a store is all about accessibility by high-income households.

I don't think downtown could support high-scale retail of the size of Nordstrom. Not yet.

And I probably wouldn't have thought Nordstrom and Parisian/Belk could co-exist 3 miles apart until a visit to Orange County, CA last weekend where I discovered 2 Nordstroms and 3 Saks 5th all within a five mile radius. Surprisingly, Germantown and Collierville are slightly higher in terms of household income than the hot spots of Irvine and Mission Viejo, CA. Granted, we have a much, much smaller population, but we currently don't even have a fifth of what they have.

If Nordstrom does choose to locate here, I'll predict they'll co-exist just fine. They're not known for taking risks and always undertake a slow, deliberate process when choosing where to put a store.

[hgupta]

I agree with you on all points, just I don't think enough people will visit out east to make it work.

I can't see it working either. Its way too east for quite a bit of Memphis, especially the most expensive homes in Memphis which are off Walnut Grove and Shady grove. Its too far east for trendy college kids or people in professional schools like UT or UM grad school who all live closer to U of M, or Rhodes, and midtown and downtown.

All of the shopaholics that I know within Memphis have visited Avenue at Carriage crossing just once and felt that it was too far. I know that I am not ever going back. Its easier to just go shopping on a business trip or on vacation or online.

If Nordstom were wise, they would try to work their way into something closer to where their shopping demographic already lives and work and goes to school, not just where they might live one day.

[Clobber]

I can't see it working either. Its way too east for quite a bit of Memphis, especially the most expensive homes in Memphis which are off Walnut Grove and Shady grove. Its too far east for trendy college kids or people in professional schools like UT or UM grad school who all live closer to U of M, or Rhodes, and midtown and downtown.

All of the shopaholics that I know within Memphis have visited Avenue at Carriage crossing just once and felt that it was too far. I know that I am not ever going back. Its easier to just go shopping on a business trip or on vacation or online.

If Nordstom were wise, they would try to work their way into something closer to where their shopping demographic already lives and work and goes to school, not just where they might live one day.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitaminute . . . it's easier to go shopping on a business trip or on vacation than to go to Collierville?!! (I can understand the ease online). I don't get that . . . You'd rather travel 400 miles than 20? Or am I misinterpreting something?

[hgupta]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitaminute . . . it's easier to go shopping on a business trip or on vacation than to go to Collierville?!! (I can understand the ease online). I don't get that . . . You'd rather travel 400 miles than 20? Or am I misinterpreting something?

In most of the cities that I vist (primarily DC, Chicago, philadephia, and NYC), there is much better shopping in walking distance or a 5 minutes cab ride from the business district/ hotel area (where I usually stay) versus a 30 to 40 minute drive to the suburbs from the central business district of memphis. So yeah, it is easier to go shopping on a business trip.

Its actually a shame that Memphis doesn't have great shopping around the hotels. 75% of our vacation time in NYC is spent shopping, but I doubt that visitors to Memphis are buying much more than souvenirs. Thats a lot of lost sales tax revenue for the city.

[Rardy]

In most of the cities that I vist (primarily DC, Chicago, philadephia, and NYC), there is much better shopping in walking distance or a 5 minutes cab ride from the business district/ hotel area (where I usually stay) versus a 30 to 40 minute drive to the suburbs from the central business district of memphis. So yeah, it is easier to go shopping on a business trip.

Its actually a shame that Memphis doesn't have great shopping around the hotels. 75% of our vacation time in NYC is spent shopping, but I doubt that visitors to Memphis are buying much more than souvenirs. Thats a lot of lost sales tax revenue for the city.

I don't think it's fair to compare Memphis to NYC because 1. we don't have the tourism NYC does and 2. we don't have 1.5 million people living downtown like Manhattan.

Also, cities like D.C. and Philadelphia do have well-developed retail downtown, but their primary shopping centers are still in the suburbs (Tyson's Corner in D.C. and King of Prussia in Philadelphia, just to name a few). America is still suburban oriented, even in the thriving urban centers.

You have to compare apples to apples and I would argue that downtown Memphis shopping is better off than Nashville, Louisville, and Birmingham.

The fact is that upscale retail naturally follows upscale residents in ALL American cities. It's only natural for Nordstrom to pursue locations in E. Memphis, Germantown, or Collierville.

Let me also say this: if we don't work to keep the currently upscale areas upscale, soon Shelby County will be one urban wasteland as Fayette County becomes the upscale area. We have to keep attractive areas attractive or else Shelby County will suffer as a whole. We need upscale residents to pay property taxes on their million-dollar houses and sales taxes in Memphis boutiques. The lower and middle classes need the upper class to pay to maintain services. Unfortunately, at our current rate, the desirable areas are further and further out in Fayette County, and money is hemorrhaging out of Shelby.

Bring on Nordstrom and let's put it out East!

[hgupta]

I don't think it's fair to compare Memphis to NYC because 1. we don't have the tourism NYC does and 2. we don't have 1.5 million people living downtown like Manhattan.

Also, cities like D.C. and Philadelphia do have well-developed retail downtown, but their primary shopping centers are still in the suburbs (Tyson's Corner in D.C. and King of Prussia in Philadelphia, just to name a few). America is still suburban oriented, even in the thriving urban centers.

You have to compare apples to apples and I would argue that downtown Memphis shopping is better off than Nashville, Louisville, and Birmingham.

The fact is that upscale retail naturally follows upscale residents in ALL American cities. It's only natural for Nordstrom to pursue locations in E. Memphis, Germantown, or Collierville.

Let me also say this: if we don't work to keep the currently upscale areas upscale, soon Shelby County will be one urban wasteland as Fayette County becomes the upscale area. We have to keep attractive areas attractive or else Shelby County will suffer as a whole. We need upscale residents to pay property taxes on their million-dollar houses and sales taxes in Memphis boutiques. The lower and middle classes need the upper class to pay to maintain services. Unfortunately, at our current rate, the desirable areas are further and further out in Fayette County, and money is hemorrhaging out of Shelby.

Bring on Nordstrom and let's put it out East!

I wasn't comparing the cities, I was saying that I , and many people like me, get my shopping done while out of town because it is more convenient. There isn't anything convenient about Avenue Carriage Crossing for 90% of Memphis. At least King of Prussia is surrounded by well developed subburbs, but there are fields around Carriage Crossing. All that is doing is forcing sprawl.

I think you're wrong about upscale residents moving outwards... just drive down shady grove near briarcrest, and you'll see plenty of multimillion dollar homes being built on new lots as well as multiple homes being torn down to be replaced by giant homes. The same is true with the infill homes that are going up as well as in areas in Midtown, and the condos downtown. Prices of nice homes in the city are soaring. The demand for high end homes is there, and you don't see a lot of unsold mansions on the market. The top private schools are still within the city, and uber-wealthy residents with kids still want to live near these schools for convenience. So the money is not moving out to the suburbs...there's just more people with money who want nice homes and greedy developers will continue their march of sprawl while the county will let them.

[Rardy]

I wasn't comparing the cities, I was saying that I , and many people like me, get my shopping done while out of town because it is more convenient. There isn't anything convenient about Avenue Carriage Crossing for 90% of Memphis. At least King of Prussia is surrounded by well developed subburbs, but there are fields around Carriage Crossing. All that is doing is forcing sprawl.

I think you're wrong about upscale residents moving outwards... just drive down shady grove near briarcrest, and you'll see plenty of multimillion dollar homes being built on new lots as well as multiple homes being torn down to be replaced by giant homes. The same is true with the infill homes that are going up as well as in areas in Midtown, and the condos downtown. Prices of nice homes in the city are soaring. The demand for high end homes is there, and you don't see a lot of unsold mansions on the market. The top private schools are still within the city, and uber-wealthy residents with kids still want to live near these schools for convenience. So the money is not moving out to the suburbs...there's just more people with money who want nice homes and greedy developers will continue their march of sprawl while the county will let them.

I agree with you to a point. I definitely agree that currently places like Midtown, E. Memphis, Germantown, and Collierville are relatively healthy. I'm just making the point that we need to ensure that they stay healthy and attractive to high-income residents.

However, I don't agree about Fayette County. For every house they're infilling in Memphis along Walnut Grove and Briarcrest, they're building five in Fayette for former Shelby residents. The Vesta Home Show has been in Fayette like three out of four times (?). The statistics since 2000 show that retirees are going to Tipton, families to DeSoto, and money to Fayette. If you factor out births and deaths, Shelby has lost population over the last 6 years. Of any group we need to focus on convincing to stay, it's the moneyed. They contribute the most to the system and demand the least in public services. Without them, we're screwed.

And look at the population trends over the past 50 years. Wealthy residents have been steadily moving east along the Poplar corridor. Now they're at the county line and getting ready to cross it en masse (once the 385 is finished). This is a severe problem IMO, and anything we can do to convince them to stay or move back west is at least worth serious consideration.

[Clobber]

In most of the cities that I vist (primarily DC, Chicago, philadephia, and NYC), there is much better shopping in walking distance or a 5 minutes cab ride from the business district/ hotel area (where I usually stay) versus a 30 to 40 minute drive to the suburbs from the central business district of memphis. So yeah, it is easier to go shopping on a business trip.

Its actually a shame that Memphis doesn't have great shopping around the hotels. 75% of our vacation time in NYC is spent shopping, but I doubt that visitors to Memphis are buying much more than souvenirs. Thats a lot of lost sales tax revenue for the city.

I just wanted to make sure you weren't saying that it was easier to make a trip specifically for shopping somewhere else than it was to drive 20 miles to shop around town. If you're already in another city for another reason, I can understand the convenience aspect, although only if you were already there.

[hgupta]

And look at the population trends over the past 50 years. Wealthy residents have been steadily moving east along the Poplar corridor. Now they're at the county line and getting ready to cross it en masse (once the 385 is finished). This is a severe problem IMO, and anything we can do to convince them to stay or move back west is at least worth serious consideration.

I still think that it is people that are buying high end houses as they become wealthy. I haven't heard of a single person who gave up their multi million dollar east memphis home to move out to the suburbs, but I know of young families who outgrew their homes and are being priced out of the Memphis high end market.

Regardless, you are right about the need to convince them to stay within the city and county. We really need to elect legislators that aren't scared of the home builders association. The most important thing that we can do is to monetarily affect the developers decision on where to build. Provide incentives to redevelop and rebuild aging communities in Memphis and disincentives for clear cutting trees for developments that will require the city to spend more in infrastructure and services. Raise impact fees, but match them with discounts for building in areas that already have the infrastructure in place to support more homes.