Jacksonville Transit

[Captain Obvious]

Many people, myself for one, choose to live in other counties because of the public schools.  I know myself I cannot afford to send my son to a private school or I would be living in or close to downtown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is totally off topic, but I have always wondered about that phenomenon, Merlin. Perhaps you'll entertain my rant ...

While I understand that most Duval schools are total crap (Raines and Rebault have a total average SAT score of below 800, for example), I guess I've always had a hard time understanding the value of Clay or St. Johns public schools. I knew a lot of people from Mandarin high (duval) and Nease high (st johns), and frankly, the Mandarin kids mostly got into better colleges and have seemed to do more with their lives so far. I also have a whole lot of extended family over the years who went to clay county schools (orange park, middleburg) and to be totally honest, they have never appeared well educated.

On the other hand, Duval private schools aren't very impressive for the price. I'm a Bolles alum, and I personally feel that the school's academic standards have dropped like a rock since they hired a new headmaster 4 years ago. BK has never really tried to have super strong academics. I can't speak for Episcopal.

Anyway, it seems to me that Stanton (and maybe Paxon or Douglas Anderson, depending) offer the best bang-for-your-buck academically in Jacksonville. I've never heard of a Clay or St Johns school having better numbers than Jax's specific magnet and IB programs. Merlin, if your son were to get into one of the "advanced" or "magnet" programs, would you move to Duval? In fact, if memory serves me, the smartest kids get bussed off to James Weldon Johnson for middle, and Stanton for high. Those schools are very close to downtown.

Of course, I'm mostly speaking in terms of high schools, and I suspect your kid is younger. I know even less about elementary and middle schools. Are there other factors that I'm unaware of? What specific reasons really influenced your choice?

[RideBikes]

I agree that this is somewhat off-topic, but as a parent who works downtown, here is my two cents:

I live in Avondale, and the elementary school my kids would have had to attend was okay, but not great. I chose private for K-5 and then got my daughter on the magnet route for middle school- at James Weldon. I am happy that it works for her and hope my son can do the same in a couple of years. I am also happy that JWJ and Stanton, are close to where I work!

Duval County does have a great magnet program, however, if your child is not "gifted" or "academically talented" you would have to do the neighborhood middle and high schools or choose another magnet program and hope you get in.

Lakeshore Middle and Lee High (my district) would not have been acceptable to me. Also, while I am taking advantage of the magnet program, I do not care for what it does to neighborhood schools (brain drain, etc.)

I cannot speak for Clay County, but I have not heard anything outstanding about the schools- I suspect both Clay and St. Johns school districts will be (or already are) dealing with some significant growing pains.

[merlin]

If you follow President Bush's "measurements", clay county FCATs, at least a year or two ago, measured the highest out the three counties. I grew up on the westside and went to Jeb Stuart for middle (Jr. high then) and Forrest for HS, and had I not been one of the 40 or so stdents in AP (Advanced Placement) the company and school are crap (not to mention a mimic of wolfson which is a Taylor Hardwick building... sorry for the side note).

I have several friends that have lived in Clay County for years and have raised kids. The ratios of students o teacher in the classes are much lower and I have heard nothing but great things about the schoos in my area, which was a major factor for us moving here about 8 months ago.

My son is two and we plan on having a second child in a year or two. If I knew they would get into those middle and high schools, I would seriously consider moving closer to downtown without a doubt. However, for he next decade or so, we will be residing in Clay County - "Town of Orange Park" to be exact.

[crazy cuban]

big ups to the OP...

[merlin]

big ups to the OP... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OP yeah you know me! Who's down with tha OP....

[RiversideGator]

As for public schools, I would avoid them at all cost no matter where you live. When we have kids (soon hopefully), they will go to private schools. I realize these are expensive, but it is worth it. If I absolutely could not afford private schools, I would seriously consider homeschooling to avoid the obnoxious socialist, PC environment of government schools.

[scongro]

As a graduate of Nease (St. John's County), I will say that while I felt that the school prepared me for life after school academically, socialy it was horrendous (I'm not talking about being cool or not), but the fact that it was like la-la land.

The average 16 year old girl does not get a BMW 3-Series for their 16th birthday, but you wouldn't know that by looking at the Nease parking lot. The typical problems that teenagers deal with usually don't include getting all of their friends past the security gates at marsh landing for the weekend party, but this sort of stuff was discussed at Nease (no kidding)

After high school, I worked for a collection agency during college for about 2 years, and to be honest, it really opened up my eyes. I had to call people and demand payment of 2-3 year old phone bills. Not only that, the job wasn't exactly high paying. I was doing it for beer money in college, but most people had a family to try to provide for.

After about a year and a half (and a few foot in mouth comments), I really started to understand how difficult it is to be successful in life. I went to college at JU, and as soon as I pay them the last $630 that I owe them, I can call myself a graduate. While JU was not a cheap school, that area of Arlington is a little rough.

To be honest, the whole college experience was very eye opening, both in and out of the classroom. I felt like it helped me become a lot better in interacting with people I don't know personally, which I think we all know is important in business.

I not saying that Nease sucks, or that Raines is the ideal place to send a kid. What I am saying is there is more to a school than it's FCAT score.

Personally, I think that the best high school to send a child is Stanton (provided that they can handle the workload). An excellent school in a rough neighborhood. To be honest, I think it's healthy (to a point) that a teenager see what happens in rough neighborhoods; it opens their eyes to a point. My girlfriend went to Stanton (class of '98, JU 2002), so maybe I am a little partial, but I feel like people that come out of Stanton generally are very well rounded people.

As I've mentioned in other posts, I am 22 years old with no children, so I believe that I have a different perspective. I just bought a townhome in the Sandalwood district (not the best, not the worst). Frankly, the school district was not my first priority when I bought my place; it was potential financial return (of which school district is a portion).

I'm interested in hearing thoughts from other that have families on their opinions. My guess is that they won't agree with me, but frankly, if I had kids, I might not agree with me either.

[merlin]

The FCAT comment I made was a somewhat a joke on Bush's speak last weak not to mention I listed other reason (more influential in my opinion) of why I chose the area I did. Public schools, depending on the school, are just as you describe a neighborhood - a great way to introduce kids to differences and tolerances that must be realized in one's life. I went to public and private schools growing up and honestly, I got into more trouble in the private school that I did in the public schools. I went to public schools the last 4 years of my schololing and I graduated at the top of my class of over 600 and was able to pass AP exams went exempted from several college courses. The reason for this my upbringing and my parents constant encouragement and support throughout high school.

Agree with me or not, but my opinion is that a child is shaped and develops because of several factors, one of which is schooling. The most important, IMO are the parents. Just because a child goes to a private school does not mean he/she will be getting into the top colleges or become a productive and viable member of society. It is the parents responsibility to guide and direct their child and make sure their questions are being answered and their enthusiasm for knowledge is maintained.

As far as the "obnoxious socialist, PC environment of government schools", it sounds to me that you have a stigma/issue that you need to confront. Sending your kids to private school is a decision you have to make if you can afford it. I, presently cannot afford to do that so I chose to relocate to an area that I felt comfortable sending my child to public school. To me, private schools are the "obnoxious, socisllist, PC environments".

Just my thoughts

[Jaxnative 231]

This is an interesting thread to read. The public has a strange view of successful schools. Having intimate knowledge of all of the systems referenced, I must say the successful schools are the ones with the parental involvement. Just living in the county that has "successful" schools will not make your child a success.

Merlin you seem to be on the right track with your kids. I am afraid however, that later you will find that Clay County Schools are better known for the Vocational & Agricultural programs rather than the Academic ones..

I believe it was Ridebikes that referenced the personal decisions that all parents face when it comes down to educational opportunities. It is just that personal.

The system must work fairly well. From the responses on this board, it appears that the public system has produce many productive members of society.

[jax]

I'll second that this is an interesting thread. Jacksonville has a reputation for horrible public schools. My sister is considering moving here but the biggest issue that is bothering her is the school system. Now, she hasn't visited yet, but the number of her neighbors who have moved here then back to long island is quite large. The reason ALL of them for returning is the poor school system.

I might add I (and my sister) have no firsthand experience with the schools here - it is just the reputation I am addressing.

[crazy cuban]

Hey, who let Bill Cosby loose on the forum? being a product of private schools all the way through grad school, and i agree that its the parents responsibility to keep children in line. remember the days that spanking meant something, now if you even mention spanking... you can be arrested and sent to about 2 years of therapy... that is the only reason that i would support private schools, if you don't perform, you're gone!!! if you don't behave there are consequences and it doesn't have to get to the point of bodies lying in the hallway?? so maybe we should tell the kids to turn off the Grand Theft Auto San Andreas and read a book!

and Scongro, if you thought that Nease was snobby, swing by Bolles and take a look at the parking lot (better known in Jax as San Jose Blvd.)

wasn't this about commuting to downtown????

[bobliocatt]

Imo, parental involvement is the main factor in a child's education. I attended one of the worst public school districts in the state. Due to growing up in the "hood", most of my childhood friends, who didn't leave the area for college are either in prison or have done some time, over the years.

Although most of what I've written sounds bad, the most important thing about living and being educated in this type of environment is that it was real. You come out well surrounded and enjoy the benefit of being both book and street smart.

There are everyday examples of what you can get caught up in and what can happen to you, without a decent education. Most kids work hard to get things like cars & clothes, which makes them realize the true value of a dollar. Me and many others, with parental involvement, have went on to enjoy varying levels of success, despite attending, what many suburbanites believe to be bad or poor public schools, or places that should be avoided at all costs.

In other words, from my experience, with support, I believe a child becomes a much more focused student (in high school and at the college level) and learns how to easily interact and intergrate him/herself into the real world, with a public school education.

So in the future, I have no problem with my kids attending public schools, in Duval or any other place, because the foundation of education starts at home.

[Urban_Legend]

wasn't this about commuting to downtown????

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Yes, it was.

[RiversideGator]

I have "a stigma/issue that you need to confront" because I would not send my kids to public schools?? That is bizarre pseudo-psychiatric nonsense. As to what others have said, I agree with Cuban in that there is more pressure to perform and learn in private schools. You dont just get socially promoted and people do generally get into better colleges after graduating from Bolles (of course you can succeed anywhere, I am not denying this). I graduated from Bolles (seems to be popular on here - I probably know some of y'all) and there are failings there too. I think the kids at Bolles, b/c of their fortunate backgrounds, were certainly out of touch with financial reality. There were some kids who were dropped off in limos (2 I can think of) and many had expensive cars, clothing, watches, jewelry, etc. A lot of kids were little snots too b/c of this. So, Lake is right about public schools imparting more street smarts on kids. Still, I think I would prefer if my kids not be exposed to deviant behavior (which exists in every school to some extent) for as long as possible. So, I recommend a religious school for K-6 (like RPDS or San Jose Episcopal) and Bolles/Episcopal for 7-12. This is my take.

[bobliocatt]

How much religion do these private schools force on their students? What about if you don't agree with the religious views, are you still accepted into these institutions?

BTW, I think the school issue is directly related to downtown commuting from the suburbs. If we can find a way to kill the stigma of avoiding inner city schools (by improving them, without making them magnet schools), there's a good chance that this town's entire commuting patterns and traffic problems and inner city population would drastically change, for the better.

[Urban_Legend]

Magnet programs can do wonders for urban schools. The old Palm Beach Central High in "ghetto West Palm Beach" was pumped with money, and turned into Dreyfoos School of the Arts (named after a big philanthropist). That school is one of the best in the country, and has a beautiful, historic, renovated campus from the old school. At first, the school was surrounded by "the hood", but since then, the Kravis Center for the Performing Arts opened up, and Cityplace came in right next door.

I'm not saying that the school caused that development, but think of the great location they have now. I wish Douglas Anderson was downtown...

[Captain Obvious]

How much religion do these private schools force on their students?  What about if you don't agree with the religious views, are you still accepted into these institutions?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BK is Catholic. Episcopal, figure it out ... I've never heard of any "forcing" of religion. They all still teach evolution in biology class, if that's what you mean. And you don't have to be Catholic or Episcopalian to get accepted.

Bolles never so much as uttered a prayer in all the years I was there. It's totally non-religious.

But yes, this is so utterly off-topic. I think I started this whole tangent several posts back. My bad.

[RiversideGator]

Bolles has no religious affiliation. San Jose Episcopal is of course an Episcopalian school, but you did not have to be an Episcopalian to attend. There were weekly (on Weds) services which everyone attended, but you could refuse communion if you chose to. Riverside Presbyterian Day School is also open to any faith, but you get a discount if you are a member of Riverside Presbyterian Church. There are many religious schools in Jacksonville from K-12 which have similar policies. And, they dont have the same permissive outlook that the public schools now do. By the way, public schools in Jax used to paddle kids who were bad until the 80s. A return to this would greatly improve public schools, in my opinion.

[bobliocatt]

I never meant to imply that magnet schools don't do wonders, but our inner cities suffer and are plagued by poor regular public schools.

Imo, one of the most important factors of inner city revitalization is the attraction of families, back to the core areas of town and not just young professionals and empty nesters. This won't happen on a large scale until, our regular neighborhood schools are improved to a point, where the current stigma, towards inner city schools is killed or lessened to a large degree. I don't have the answer to how to get there, but I know it needs to be done.

[RideBikes]

But yes, this is so utterly off-topic. I think I started this whole tangent several posts back. My bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree w/Lakelander, this is really not that off-topic. Merlin brought it up related to the commuting issue- everyone has various factors that determine where they choose to live in a community, and for most parents, school is a huge issue. I moved to Riverside prior to having kids, and I love being close to downtown where I work as well as working close to where my kids are in school. If we had not been able to afford RPDS and fortunate enough to get on the magnet track, moving to a better district would have been a serious option to consider, despite how much we love our neighborhood and (lack of) commute.

Also, Riverside Gator, As an RPDS parent and a member of Riverside Presbyterian Church, we receive no discount. There is financial aid available, and church members may be considered, but I have only seen it distributed where there was clear financial need. (It was a stretch for my husband and me to afford RPDS and we feel like we got a huge raise when my daughter started JWJ last year!)

BTW, I think Catholic schools do provide discounts for catholic school tuition if you are a member of the parish.

[merlin]

How much religion do these private schools force on their students?  What about if you don't agree with the religious views, are you still accepted into these institutions?

BTW, I think the school issue is directly related to downtown commuting from the suburbs.  If we can find a way to kill the stigma of avoiding inner city schools (by improving them, without making them magnet schools), there's a good chance that this town's entire commuting patterns and traffic problems and inner city population would drastically change, for the better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My original thread was just to make a point that people choose to live outside of downtown and duval county for a myriad of reasons, mine were cost of living, schools, and it made my wife's commute and my commute equal.

I am not sure how to take your comment Jaxnative about "later you will find that Clay County Schools are better known for the Vocational & Agricultural programs rather than the Academic ones." I am reading alittle dig there but, I went to Forrest high school and they arenot known for their advance placement program either, but I graduated 9th in my class of over 600 and got into 8 of the nine colleges I applied to and was able to start 6 credits shy of a junior. So go on all day about what a school is better known for, there are exceptions to every rule.

Riversidegator - Talk to me in a few years when you have a few more bills, a couple kids, and a wife/husband that has a choice in where you live too, and we'll see which decison suits you, because ultimately that what matter's. My choice to send my kid a public school and to live in clay county works for me, I am not saying everyone should do that.

If I could afford it (on top of the mortgage, my and my wife's student loans, car payments, etc.) I would probably send my son to private school.

[Jaxnative 231]

While I agree this thread has gotten way off topic, it has at least sparked several peoples interest.

Merlin I am sorry that you felt my reply was "a dig". That was not the intent. But if it is such a great system why did the last bond referendum fail to pass? They are in a school facility crunch much like St. John's County. You cannot have that kind of explosive growth without problems.

As to the FCAT, I encourage everyone to read and understand what makes up the school's grade. It is not based on how the students scored on the test. It is also based on the mobility rate of the students, the amount of discipline interventions, attendance, the amount of free and reduced lunch etc. It punishes the lower socio-economic group the most. If you look at the highest achieving schools you will see they are predominantly located in affluent areas. Ones that usually have large amounts of parental involvement.

The misconception that a school is good just because it is private totally confuses me. There are exceptionally fine private schools (RPDS comes to mind) but , there are also that make the worst school in Duval county look like Harvard. You can keep lowering the standards and giving out good grades but that does not mean you are learning.. If you ever get the opportunity look at the chart from DCPS that tracks the grade curve vs. FCAT scores. All of the DCPS schools have the direct correlation. High Grades = High scores Then look at the Charter Schools. High Grades & Low scores

Anyway this has been fun. Merlin I an relieved to know you were so high up the graduation list at Forrest. I graduated from Wolfson many years ago. I think I was 236 out of 560 something, guess that makes us even...

Education is what you make it!

[merlin]

I couldn't agree more about the FCAT's. I too agree that there are great public schools and bad private schools. I live oof of Dr's Lake Drive off of Kingsley (technically "The Town of Orange Park"), where the neighborhoods are well established and no more growth can occur. My wife and I looked hard in the school in my area and know several teaches at these schools and were very comfortable with the decision. As to the explosive growth, yes, Clay County is experiencing the same phenomena that St. John's county was with Julington Creek, now it's Fleming Island, Eagle Harbor, and Margaret's walk, all of which are well south of me.

This has gotten off topic somewhat, however I think what we have been discussing is a major factor why people choose to commute. Personally for me I enjoy the disconnect. Drive home with some nice music let the happenings at the office slip away as much as possible. As long as you expect the traffic, road rage really isn't a problem (for me).

I too agree that this has been fun or shall we say entertaining.

[Urban_Legend]

Even though we're still off-topic, I figured I'd post this here, since it's related to Jax public schools.

2 Jacksonville public high schools return to Newsweek's top 10

Stanton and Paxon continue to do well in magazine's scoring system, based on advanced tests taken.

By KEN LEWIS, The Times-Union

Two Jacksonville schools landed among the top 10 public high schools in the nation in a ranking published this week by Newsweek magazine.

Stanton College Preparatory ranked third and Paxon School for Advanced Studies ranked seventh out of 1,036 schools picked from the nation's approximately 26,000 high schools.

The rest of the article...

[BosTech]

What do you guys think of Skyway being build from St.John mall run it between 9A highway to Downtow by Alltel Stadium and then to rest of Skyway system.This way it would make people travel over 9A/Skyway and relive traffic in other areas and yet it would be easy and cheapER to build then in other areas of Jax.Maybe even extended latter to Orange Park using 9A highway as pass-thru,no need for buying additional land to run Skyway.

This would relive so much of traffic and be very effective system,eventually run Skyway into other areas from mall and Orange Park.

A lot cheaper to build it then runing whole thing over residential/office areas.

Soeome might say you alredy have highway but adding Skyway will just double passage and allowed extensions to other areas saving money to buy land...for example runing station from St. Johns mall to Beaches next to JTB,to Orange Park and even Mandarin over JTB then down 95 to Avenues mall then to Mandarin over shad or one of those streets.

Many people would use system and runing parallel to 95,JTB and 9A wouls save tons of money on buying land and save time building whole thing.