Urban Cores

[TheBostonian]

does atlanta really have a crappy skyline?  thats too bad.

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Oh, I like Atlanta's skyline. I became very interested in the city after I read Tom Wolfe's A Man in Full. But when I drove through the city (on a highway without stopping) it seemed a lot less dense than some photos led me to believe.

I think what is special about Boston is that the gaps in its skyline are not parking lots and highway interchanges. I think the area between the Pru and Hancock in Back Bay is one of the most beautiful, walkable urban areas. In this sense Boston has the best of both worlds. It has a skyline and it is beautiful at ground level. It is a little like combining DC and Atlanta.

For some time I judged cities by their skylines. And since I have lived in an urban area I have begun to look at cities from a pedestrian's view. I have come to love Boston from both perspectives.

[pvenne]

Oh, I like Atlanta's skyline.  I became very interested in the city after I read Tom Wolfe's A Man in Full.  But when I drove through the city (on a highway without stopping) it seemed a lot less dense than some photos led me to believe.

I think what is special about Boston is that the gaps in its skyline are not parking lots and highway interchanges.  I think the area between the Pru and Hancock in Back Bay is one of the most beautiful, walkable urban areas.  In this sense Boston has the best of both worlds.  It has a skyline and it is beautiful at ground level.  It is a little like combining DC and Atlanta.

For some time I judged cities by their skylines.  And since I have lived in an urban area I have begun to look at cities from a pedestrian's view.  I have come to love Boston from both perspectives.

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i agree, i have seen many parts of boston (though i couldnt name them) that feel like portland, maine and then you look up and there is a 40+ story building hidden behind the tree tops overlooking brick rowed houses and hard black steel fences and water-ways etc...oh boy boston in the summer is a beautiful place.

[Garris]

i agree, i have seen many parts of boston (though i couldnt name them) that feel like portland, maine and then you look up and there is a 40+ story building hidden behind the tree tops overlooking brick rowed houses and hard black steel fences and water-ways etc...oh boy boston in the summer is a beautiful place.

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This is a cool thing about New England Cities... Boston, Providence, and even New Haven all have those "surprise and delight" moments...

- Garris

[Cotuit]

wow who ever knew L.A. had a subway...

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LAs new mayor is actually on a mission right now to try to get more Angelenos out of their cars and onto the subways. It'll take a catistrophic oil crisis to get people in LA to use transit the way New Yorkers, Bostonians, San Franciscans, and Chicagoans do, but I'm sure we'll see more and more movement towards public transit in LA. There's no more room to expand LAs freeways and the cost of gas will only continue to rise.

[pvenne]

the cost of gas will only continue to rise.

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lets hope not. i am hopeful that when people's fears about economic and political instability calm down after the middle east stabilizes, gas prices (in real terms, at least) will stabilize as well and become tied more to a long range average inflation rate.....key word = "hopeful".

p.s. is L.A. county the same thing as los angeles?

[Recchia]

lets hope not.  i am hopeful that when people's fears about economic and political instability calm down after the middle east stabilizes, gas prices (in real terms, at least) will stabilize as well and become tied more to a long range average inflation rate.....key word = "hopeful".

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We need to start trying to solve our oil problems by looking to alternative forms of transportation, not by hoping that oil prices will stabilize. I'm going to stop now though before I start my "I hate gas and cars blah blah" rant...

[pvenne]

We need to start trying to solve our oil problems by looking to alternative forms of transportation, not by hoping that oil prices will stabilize.  I'm going to stop now though before I start my "I hate gas and cars blah blah" rant...

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you know something, you are right. we need alternative energy sources as well. but the tough part is convincing the masses that this is what we need. and, well, lets face it, change is hard for americans. especially when politicians are controlled as much by lobbyists for oil companies as they are by their own constituents....the system is so screwed up yet it operates, somehow...right now i think are best bet is to hope for the return of stable prices, especially since change will not happen over night. oh what id give for an oil independent country...that would solve most of our mid-east problems too.....but who am i kidding?

[BostonFaker]

I'm sorry to break to you guys, but gas is cheap, economically.

[Cotuit]

I'm sorry to break to you guys, but gas is cheap, economically.

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Shhh, don't let the SUV driving schlubs know that $3 a gallon is cheap. Let them keep being hysterical about a $0.05 rise.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I'm sorry to break to you guys, but gas is cheap, economically.

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What does that mean?

(Please don't tell me it's the "Gas is still cheaper than milk!" argument. I HATE THAT!!! Maybe that will be a relevant fact when we start driving milk-powered cars.)

[TheBostonian]

Wouldn't further major increases in the price of gasoline be the best thing for alternative fuels and public transit? Imagine gas at $10/gallon. So much change would follow. Many SUVs would collect dust in garages. Hybrids might become the norm. And you'd see those little tiny European cars pop up everywhere. And maybe there would be excellent pressure on the MBTA to fully electrify the commuter rail.

People who drive are not happy with a rise in the cost of gas. I'd like to see it rise enough so that drivers are so unhappy that they change their lifestyles.

[pvenne]

Wouldn't further major increases in the price of gasoline be the best thing for alternative fuels and public transit?  Imagine gas at $10/gallon.  So much change would follow.  Many SUVs would collect dust in garages.  Hybrids might become the norm.  And you'd see those little tiny European cars pop up everywhere.  And maybe there would be excellent pressure on the MBTA to fully electrify the commuter rail.

People who drive are not happy with a rise in the cost of gas.  I'd like to see it rise enough so that drivers are so unhappy that they change their lifestyles.

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it is a possibility. but thats not what happened in the 70s...people just flipped out and no meaningful change came about. also, so far people arent buying less gasoline at the pumps, even though prices have skyrocketed...i know, it seems like it would work the other way around, but i guess only time will tell.

[pvenne]

I'm sorry to break to you guys, but gas is cheap, economically.

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cheap econoically? i dont even know what that means...but i think i know the point you were trying to make...but, it doesnt matter if it is cheap, it only matters how much of their budget people set aside for gas and how much over that they have to keep going...which cuts into other things and can cause lots of frusteration. gas should be a lot more expensive, but if it rises so fast then people cant adjust to it in their personal spending limits and then the system falls apart...

[pvenne]

What does that mean?

(Please don't tell me it's the "Gas is still cheaper than milk!" argument. I HATE THAT!!!

[youbetternot]

I'm sorry to break to you guys, but gas is cheap, economically.

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So is child labor.

[TheBostonian]

So is child labor.

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Hehe.

[youbetternot]

cheap econoically?  i dont even know what that means...but i think i know the point you were trying to make...but, it doesnt matter if it is cheap, it only matters how much of their budget people set aside for gas and how much over that they have to keep going...which cuts into other things and can cause lots of frusteration.  gas should be a lot more expensive, but if it rises so fast then people cant adjust to it in their personal spending limits and then the system falls apart...

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It means that gas has a much lower economic cost than many other forms of fuel. For example, if gas had never been discovered or did not exist then we would most likely be living in an early to mid 1900's style economy with that type of technology today. Gas has subsidized our economic development for a century, and luckily long enough for us to be advanced enough to have the ability to get by without it. I am hoping that the "peak oil" theory is correct, because it is the only thing that will, with the least amount of pain possible, wean us off oil.

EDIT: I said in another post that child labor is cheap economically. A better comparison would be slavery. It also subsidized the American economy for a long time. We got over it. Well, economically speaking at least

[BostonFaker]

What I meant was that gasoline is cheaper now than in the early 80s, when inflation is considered. All the SUVs on the road is clear evidence of this fact.

As for economic choices, people always choose the cheapest, all things being equal. So as long as gas is cheaper than alternative fuels, gas is king.

As for the true price of gas, there are many expenses that are not accounted for in the price at the pump, but those don't matter to anyone buying at the time. Loss of human lives, and the externalities of pollution, are not accounted for.

And what does child labor or slavery have to do with any of this? My view of child labor is that, if a developing country has to use child labor at this point in their development to finally become wealthy enough to not, than fine. The US used child labor, and look at where we are today!

[Garris]

Wouldn't further major increases in the price of gasoline be the best thing for alternative fuels and public transit?  Imagine gas at $10/gallon.  So much change would follow. 

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Yes and no... I've found myself hoping for this as well, but people are extremely resistant to change. The vast majority of Americans live a self selected suburban lifestyle. It's what they've been told they should aspire to, what says, "I've made it." It's also where, regrettably, many of our better school systems and social services are located. Our entire society and economy is built around it.

What will probably happen with the (inevitable) rise in gas prices (there is a limited supply of the stuff) first is people doing what they did in the 70's - switch to smaller, more fuel efficient cars or hybrids (don't get me into the hybrid thing now... I think they're a bad idea overall).

If prices still keep going up, at that point, I would expect to see some systemic changes. Companies won't want to be located out in the middle of nowhere, and might start moving back to transportation centers and urban centers. As in the 70's (at least in the NY metro), there will be a bigger push for further development of commuter rail. Air travel will drop as the price to fly jumps up. Regional rail might enter the agenda again.

This will all come with enormous economic pain and depression. This would ravage our airline industry and auto industry. Just the recent SUV downtick in sales alone due to higher gas prices has reversed what was Ford's ongoing recovery, and they're now talking about employee cuts of up to 30%. Imagine what a doubling of gas prices would do!

My long term hope would be 10-20 years of high prices would reignite people living around and being more dependent on neighborhoods, whereever they are. I'm hoping high gas prices would be the stake in the heart for the soulness "retail strips" that plague every area (ex, Rt 2 in Warwick and Rt 6 in Seekonk) and have killed downtowns everywhere. But maybe not...

The suburbs aren't going away overnight. Even everyone I've ever known from Europe, be they from the country or city, they all own cars, so I don't think our car focused lifestyle would ever go away. I'd just like to see it balanced a bit.

- Garris

[Recchia]

Very good posts in this section, I haven't found one I can't agree with. Its a whole mix of things, our suburban mentality that you've "made it" if you own a house in the burbs like Garris said, the lack of other forms of transportation and the building of areas centered around cars, and the cheapness of gas in America (compared to lets say, Europe or Bermuda), have all led us to where we are now. I think continued gradual increases in gas prices, re-investment in brownfields and greyfield areas and development of mass transit and even simple things like bikeways, sidewalks and pedestrian overpasses/paths will help bring about changes in our transportation lifestyles.

[TheBostonian]

Are you guys in favor of a major gas tax like, as far as I know, Western EU countries have? I think the UK, France and Germany's gas taxes are something like 300%

[Garris]

I think continued gradual increases in gas prices, re-investment in brownfields and greyfield areas and development of mass transit and even simple things like bikeways, sidewalks and pedestrian overpasses/paths will help bring about changes in our transportation lifestyles.

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Yeah, look at the Rt 2 stretch in Warwick... No sidewalks there! If an area like that had high density housing integrated into it, and sidewalks connecting all that housing and retail, imagine how pedestrian that whole area strip plaza area could be... Then, add a people mover down the center median, and you've got potential!

I don't think (regrettably) that high prices would mark the end of suburban America, but just that with a little planning and effort, we could do a lot better to soften the blow of higher prices.

Are you guys in favor of a major gas tax like, as far as I know, Western EU countries have? I think the UK, France and Germany's gas taxes are something like 300%

I'm in favor of it, but it'll never, ever happen in the US. Which politician will commit career suicide first? Our current trend is tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans!

You want to hear something sickening? There are companies out there right now that want to build private toll highways, for wealthier folks unhappy with the traffic and condition of the regular public roads we all have to put up with. Can you imagine using more land, dollars, etc for this?!?!? But it's apparently going to happen in some places. Do you know more about this Recchia?

- Garris

[TheBostonian]

Let's not talk about LA anymore, ok? Or, maybe one more thing. Hehe!

http://www.planetizen.com/news/item.php?id=17636&rf=rsshttp://www.planetizen.com/news/item.php?id=17636&rf=rss

[BostonFaker]

Let's not talk about LA anymore, ok?  Or, maybe one more thing.  Hehe!

http://www.planetizen.com/news/item.php?id=17636&rf=rsshttp://www.planetizen.com/news/item.php?id=17636&rf=rss

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Yeah, if you have the same amount of density everywhere, the larger the sample size, the higher your average is in comparison.

[pvenne]

It means that gas has a much lower economic cost than many other forms of fuel. For example, if gas had never been discovered or did not exist then we would most likely be living in an early to mid 1900's style economy with that type of technology today. Gas has subsidized our economic development for a century, and luckily long enough for us to be advanced enough to have the ability to get by without it. I am hoping that the "peak oil" theory is correct, because it is the only thing that will, with the least amount of pain possible, wean us off oil.

EDIT: I said in another post that child labor is cheap economically. A better comparison would be slavery. It also subsidized the American economy for a long time. We got over it. Well, economically speaking at least 

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i see what your saying. but about slavery...what was there to get over for america econonomically speaking? it was only good for the u.s. economy, so there wasnt ever anything to get over. and for the most part, 13 % of america hasnt recovered economically (black people). even the well-off blacks would be even better off if slavery never existed in this country, in my opinion.